Being assertive when new co-worker says "All hunters are murderers"

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: vi_edit

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
All hunters who kill living things are in essence murderers. I don't agree with killing as a sport but killing to stay alive is the way of nature.

Not really. Killing things unnecessarily or for the thrill of it is also the way of nature. A predator won't pass up easy prey generally, regardless of whether it is satiated.

If you eat meat either you can hunt the prey like you would in nature, or you can sit on your couch and watch tv while someone else butchers an animal for you. For some reason the former sounds more ethical to me.

I have never heard of animals killing for fun aka sport. That is the way of humans. Animals kill for food and to protect themselves, their babies, and their pack or whatever they travel in.
Once again I have never heard of an animal killing for fun.

You have a ton of "sportsman" out there that are simply hunting for the sake of killing the biggest damn thing they can. Head (rack) hunters for deer. Bear hunters that stuff them. Fisherman that mount them on a plaque. Safari hunters that charter trips to Africa. Ect.

These people rarely ever eat the stuff they kill. When things get that big/old the quality of the meat goes downhill fast. Big fish, big deer, bear, ect all start getting tough, chewy, and bad tasting.

The best tasting game is fairly young. For a deer it's a year or two old. For a bass it's 2 or 3 pounds. But those don't make good trophies.

That is definitely NOT the case in Wisconsin when it comes to deer season. You are basically required to take the deer with you, and anyone that does not want to keep the meat will take it to any of the meat processors. There they will process the meat for free and donate it to various food pantries.

Same thing for New York.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: vi_edit

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
All hunters who kill living things are in essence murderers. I don't agree with killing as a sport but killing to stay alive is the way of nature.

Not really. Killing things unnecessarily or for the thrill of it is also the way of nature. A predator won't pass up easy prey generally, regardless of whether it is satiated.

If you eat meat either you can hunt the prey like you would in nature, or you can sit on your couch and watch tv while someone else butchers an animal for you. For some reason the former sounds more ethical to me.

I have never heard of animals killing for fun aka sport. That is the way of humans. Animals kill for food and to protect themselves, their babies, and their pack or whatever they travel in.
Once again I have never heard of an animal killing for fun.

You have a ton of "sportsman" out there that are simply hunting for the sake of killing the biggest damn thing they can. Head (rack) hunters for deer. Bear hunters that stuff them. Fisherman that mount them on a plaque. Safari hunters that charter trips to Africa. Ect.

These people rarely ever eat the stuff they kill. When things get that big/old the quality of the meat goes downhill fast. Big fish, big deer, bear, ect all start getting tough, chewy, and bad tasting.

The best tasting game is fairly young. For a deer it's a year or two old. For a bass it's 2 or 3 pounds. But those don't make good trophies.

That is definitely NOT the case in Wisconsin when it comes to deer season. You are basically required to take the deer with you, and anyone that does not want to keep the meat will take it to any of the meat processors. There they will process the meat for free and donate it to various food pantries.

Which is how it should be. I despise trophy hunters. If you're going to kill animals at least have the decency to use the meat.

 

[BurnItDwn]

Fact: Only hunters who kill humans are murderers. Also, if the hunter is killing a human in self defense, then they are not considered a murderer.

 

[Zysoclaplem]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
Curiosity and Instinct. Not all predators have them but some do. Not intent to kill with the knowledge of what killing means.
We know better. Sort of like stealing, raping, etc.etc.. If killing other humans was made legal how long would you survive?

Way to change your argument entirely and ignore my question about meat. The fact is that animals kill each other for the thrill of it. You were wrong and your statement about that was wrong. You've now moved on to a completely different argument about higher consciousness. You believe it is wrong for a human being to act as an animal does daily because humans have awareness and the ability to override instinct. You are ok with hunting or what you call the murder of animals as long as someone ingests some part of the body of the animal killed.

Your only legitimate complaint in this regard is against hunters who kill and then do not actually do anything with the meat. You can't argue that the hunter should have to eat the meat him or herself unless you are also morally opposed to cattle ranches that are used to create meat, since the person responsible for killing the cows is not eating the meat directly either in that case, and in fact is committing what would logically seem like a far worse sin of murdering an animal for PROFIT.

Going back to the hunter who kills but does not use the carcass. I think that should be illegal actually. I would be surprised if there weren't ordinances against leaving the carcass there, but obviously we do not (but should) mandate that any meaty animal killed for sport should be used for food directly or donated to a needy shelter.

But the rest is just bleeding heart hogwash.

I did not change my argument at all. My argument remains the same as it always has.
Just because I did not express all of it, my entire belief about the entire subject in one post does not mean I changed my point of view.

I'm glad you agree with the rest.

 

[TheKub]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Which is how it should be. I despise trophy hunters. If you're going to kill animals at least have the decency to use the meat.

So Dahmer is cool in your book, after all he had the decency to use the meat!


I kid!...

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
Humans were made to be vegetarians. It was not until they started eating meat that their brains progressed and they advanced to the thinking, reasoning, inventing species that they now are.

????


Ron Popiel better watch out, the lions are moving up fast.

 

[Zysoclaplem]

Originally posted by: TheKub

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
But what humans do is not instinct, nor is it curiosity. Hell most of the time it's so one sided why even try.
If you want the thrill of the kill go out and do it with your bare hands and see how you fare...lol.

Um, animals have natural defenses (horns/claws/size). Humans have higher intelligence with which we use to make tools to overcome our natural defensive short comings. So by using a gun/spear/etc we are merely taking advantage of what we have just like a bear/deer/etc.

Yeah you would be happy for a hunter to go after a dear with a knife (who most likely would get hurt/die) until you realized that the few wounds that the hunter inflicted would most likely result in a very slow painful death due to infection. A rifle/shotgun spares them of that (as long as the hunter is skilled and not just shooting without aiming)

My point was not for someone to die, but that I am sure it would be much more thrilling for the hunter. And there would be a lot less hunters hunting...lol. Using a gun might be difficult, but only because of the deer's speed and senses.
I understand that with our higher intelligence comes weapons and devices that make life much easier.

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
I did not change my argument at all. My argument remains the same as it always has.
Just because I did not express all of it, my entire belief about the entire subject in one post does not mean I changed my point of view.

I'm glad you agree with the rest.

Your point of view and beliefs are not the same thing as the arguments you present. The arguments you presented were either false or foolish, with the exception of the one about wastefulness, which many others here agree with and which is to some degree not all that common. It is far more common in fishing than in game hunting, because game hunting is very expensive and there are a lot more strict rules surrounding it.

 

[Zysoclaplem]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
I did not change my argument at all. My argument remains the same as it always has.
Just because I did not express all of it, my entire belief about the entire subject in one post does not mean I changed my point of view.

I'm glad you agree with the rest.

Your point of view and beliefs are not the same thing as the arguments you present. The arguments you presented were either false or foolish, with the exception of the one about wastefulness, which many others here agree with and which is to some degree not all that common. It is far more common in fishing than in game hunting, because game hunting is very expensive and there are a lot more strict rules surrounding it.

I respectfully disagree with your opinions about my opinions and arguments, and am terribly sorry you wasted your time with your inadequate responses.

 

[Nyati13]

Originally posted by: JEDI
My first thought was:
WTF r u talking about? How stupid and ignorant are you?

But that satement wasnt assertive. it was aggressive.

My next thought was changing the conversation or just walking away.
But that's passive to me wanting to express my opinion that he's wrong.

So what's the assertive thing to say?

Plants are also living matter that is killed when eaten, the only difference is animals are self-propelled.

 

[Zysoclaplem]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: vi_edit

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
All hunters who kill living things are in essence murderers. I don't agree with killing as a sport but killing to stay alive is the way of nature.

Not really. Killing things unnecessarily or for the thrill of it is also the way of nature. A predator won't pass up easy prey generally, regardless of whether it is satiated.

If you eat meat either you can hunt the prey like you would in nature, or you can sit on your couch and watch tv while someone else butchers an animal for you. For some reason the former sounds more ethical to me.

I have never heard of animals killing for fun aka sport. That is the way of humans. Animals kill for food and to protect themselves, their babies, and their pack or whatever they travel in.
Once again I have never heard of an animal killing for fun.

You have a ton of "sportsman" out there that are simply hunting for the sake of killing the biggest damn thing they can. Head (rack) hunters for deer. Bear hunters that stuff them. Fisherman that mount them on a plaque. Safari hunters that charter trips to Africa. Ect.

These people rarely ever eat the stuff they kill. When things get that big/old the quality of the meat goes downhill fast. Big fish, big deer, bear, ect all start getting tough, chewy, and bad tasting.

The best tasting game is fairly young. For a deer it's a year or two old. For a bass it's 2 or 3 pounds. But those don't make good trophies.

That is definitely NOT the case in Wisconsin when it comes to deer season. You are basically required to take the deer with you, and anyone that does not want to keep the meat will take it to any of the meat processors. There they will process the meat for free and donate it to various food pantries.

Which is how it should be. I despise trophy hunters. If you're going to kill animals at least have the decency to use the meat.

:thumbsup:

 

[Bryophyte]

Your place of employment is no place to make "assertive" responses to inflammatory coworkers. You are not required to reply to every idea hurled your direction, and would be a fool to get into a pissing match at work over it. It has nothing to do with your job. Let it go. If you need to talk to him about work, answer his "Hunting is murder" rants with "Have you finished xxxx job?" or whatever it is that you needed to talk to him about. If you don't need to talk to him, just turn around and get back to work without saying a word. If he keeps at it, supervisors will know who it is that's being a PITA, and it won't be you.

 

[mobobuff]

Invite him to lunch and then have a good-natured discussion on his logical fallacies.

 

[datalink7]

Just print this out and post it up everywhere

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
I respectfully disagree with your opinions about my opinions and arguments, and am terribly sorry you wasted your time with your inadequate responses.

My responses are fine. I'm not trying to change your opinion. I am only tired of seeing people make lame arguments about animals and nature and attempting to take the moral high ground about hunting when there are far more pressing problems in the world than someone harnessing biological instincts but wasting meat, which is as I said fairly uncommon due to the costs involved and legal limitations.

 

[slsmnaz]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: vi_edit

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
All hunters who kill living things are in essence murderers. I don't agree with killing as a sport but killing to stay alive is the way of nature.

Not really. Killing things unnecessarily or for the thrill of it is also the way of nature. A predator won't pass up easy prey generally, regardless of whether it is satiated.

If you eat meat either you can hunt the prey like you would in nature, or you can sit on your couch and watch tv while someone else butchers an animal for you. For some reason the former sounds more ethical to me.

I have never heard of animals killing for fun aka sport. That is the way of humans. Animals kill for food and to protect themselves, their babies, and their pack or whatever they travel in.
Once again I have never heard of an animal killing for fun.

You have a ton of "sportsman" out there that are simply hunting for the sake of killing the biggest damn thing they can. Head (rack) hunters for deer. Bear hunters that stuff them. Fisherman that mount them on a plaque. Safari hunters that charter trips to Africa. Ect.

These people rarely ever eat the stuff they kill. When things get that big/old the quality of the meat goes downhill fast. Big fish, big deer, bear, ect all start getting tough, chewy, and bad tasting.

The best tasting game is fairly young. For a deer it's a year or two old. For a bass it's 2 or 3 pounds. But those don't make good trophies.

That is definitely NOT the case in Wisconsin when it comes to deer season. You are basically required to take the deer with you, and anyone that does not want to keep the meat will take it to any of the meat processors. There they will process the meat for free and donate it to various food pantries.

Which is how it should be. I despise trophy hunters. If you're going to kill animals at least have the decency to use the meat.

A trophy hunter is a very rare breed. Even most of them donate the meat after taking what they are after.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: txrandom

Originally posted by: Pepsi90919
murder is pre-meditated killing, what is wrong about his definition?

Silly vegetarian.

The definition is certainly apt, and it is indeed possible to murder an animal (only a fool would disagree with this logic).

however, hunting (assuming you are hunting for a legitimate reason--i.e., you will eat the animal) is not murder.

Jeffrey Dahmer murdered animals on a regular basis. The majority of hunters do not.

 

[Zysoclaplem]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
I respectfully disagree with your opinions about my opinions and arguments, and am terribly sorry you wasted your time with your inadequate responses.

My responses are fine. I'm not trying to change your opinion. I am only tired of seeing people make lame arguments about animals and nature and attempting to take the moral high ground about hunting when there are far more pressing problems in the world than someone harnessing biological instincts but wasting meat, which is as I said fairly uncommon due to the costs involved and legal limitations.

It's what the post is about. I honestly don't express my opinions a lot outside the forums, and yes there are bigger things going on. If this post was about abuse, or rape, I would express my opinions on those.
There is no right or wrong here. I cannot change the dirty deeds of the world. I just value all life and I would rather not see it wasted.

 

[nakedfrog]

Some men hunt for sports, others hunt for food... the only thing I'm hunting for is an outfit that looks gooooood
See my vest, see my vest, made from real gorilla chest

 

[vi edit]

Originally posted by: slsmnaz

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: vi_edit

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
All hunters who kill living things are in essence murderers. I don't agree with killing as a sport but killing to stay alive is the way of nature.

Not really. Killing things unnecessarily or for the thrill of it is also the way of nature. A predator won't pass up easy prey generally, regardless of whether it is satiated.

If you eat meat either you can hunt the prey like you would in nature, or you can sit on your couch and watch tv while someone else butchers an animal for you. For some reason the former sounds more ethical to me.

I have never heard of animals killing for fun aka sport. That is the way of humans. Animals kill for food and to protect themselves, their babies, and their pack or whatever they travel in.
Once again I have never heard of an animal killing for fun.

You have a ton of "sportsman" out there that are simply hunting for the sake of killing the biggest damn thing they can. Head (rack) hunters for deer. Bear hunters that stuff them. Fisherman that mount them on a plaque. Safari hunters that charter trips to Africa. Ect.

These people rarely ever eat the stuff they kill. When things get that big/old the quality of the meat goes downhill fast. Big fish, big deer, bear, ect all start getting tough, chewy, and bad tasting.

The best tasting game is fairly young. For a deer it's a year or two old. For a bass it's 2 or 3 pounds. But those don't make good trophies.

That is definitely NOT the case in Wisconsin when it comes to deer season. You are basically required to take the deer with you, and anyone that does not want to keep the meat will take it to any of the meat processors. There they will process the meat for free and donate it to various food pantries.

Which is how it should be. I despise trophy hunters. If you're going to kill animals at least have the decency to use the meat.

A trophy hunter is a very rare breed. Even most of them donate the meat after taking what they are after.

Even if the meat is donated, that is not the primary motivation. It's a secondary convenience. And it's hard to say how much of it actually gets into a persons mouth instead of winding up at a rendering plant and being turned into petfood.

I'm more addressing the mentality of trophey hunting.

 

[BUTCH1]

Tick: Unsubscribe
Tick: Light grill for cheesburger!!

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: sixone

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
All hunters who kill living things are in essence murderers. I don't agree with killing as a sport but killing to stay alive is the way of nature.

Not really. Killing things unnecessarily or for the thrill of it is also the way of nature. A predator won't pass up easy prey generally, regardless of whether it is satiated.

If you eat meat either you can hunt the prey like you would in nature, or you can sit on your couch and watch tv while someone else butchers an animal for you. For some reason the former sounds more ethical to me.

I have never heard of animals killing for fun aka sport. That is the way of humans. Animals kill for food and to protect themselves, their babies, and their pack or whatever they travel in.
Once again I have never heard of an animal killing for fun.

It's not fun - it's instinct. Have you ever seen a cat chase a toy? He know's it's not the same as the food in his dish, but he can't resist chasing and subduing it. Same with wild predators.

Yes, it is instinct but cats play to hone their skills and they do eat their prey. Hell, my cat kills mice and birds. She brings them home alive and plays with them for a while before she kills them. She eats a little of the meat but I usually end up throwing a dead bird carcass in the trash.

Wild animals do not kill for fun. They do it to survive.

No, some do it for fun.

 

[slsmnaz]

Originally posted by: vi_edit

Originally posted by: slsmnaz

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Which is how it should be. I despise trophy hunters. If you're going to kill animals at least have the decency to use the meat.

A trophy hunter is a very rare breed. Even most of them donate the meat after taking what they are after.

Even if the meat is donated, that is not the primary motivation. It's a secondary convenience. And it's hard to say how much of it actually gets into a persons mouth instead of winding up at a rendering plant and being turned into petfood.

I'm more addressing the mentality of trophey hunting.

Doesn't matter as long as it gets used does it? Not only did that trophy hunter just put thousands of dollars into their local economy but he also helped feed their less fortunate. How it got there should not matter.

I have also never been to a processing station that makes dog food.

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: vi_edit
Even if the meat is donated, that is not the primary motivation. It's a secondary convenience. And it's hard to say how much of it actually gets into a persons mouth instead of winding up at a rendering plant and being turned into petfood.

I'm more addressing the mentality of trophey hunting.

Not that I'm a fan of trophy hunting, but I do wonder what would happen if those people didn't have hunting as an outlet. I know that a lot of people in violent sports such as MMA say that without their sport they would be into all kinds of trouble. I wonder if a trophy hunter unable to hunt wouldn't be more detrimental to society than one who can.

 

[slsmnaz]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: vi_edit
Even if the meat is donated, that is not the primary motivation. It's a secondary convenience. And it's hard to say how much of it actually gets into a persons mouth instead of winding up at a rendering plant and being turned into petfood.

I'm more addressing the mentality of trophey hunting.

Not that I'm a fan of trophy hunting, but I do wonder what would happen if those people didn't have hunting as an outlet. I know that a lot of people in violent sports such as MMA say that without their sport they would be into all kinds of trouble. I wonder if a trophy hunter unable to hunt wouldn't be more detrimental to society than one who can.

You are implying there is something mentally wrong with these hunters. :disgust: