Being assertive when new co-worker says "All hunters are murderers"

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sixone

Lifer
May 3, 2004
25,030
4
61
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
All hunters who kill living things are in essence murderers. I don't agree with killing as a sport but killing to stay alive is the way of nature.

Not really. Killing things unnecessarily or for the thrill of it is also the way of nature. A predator won't pass up easy prey generally, regardless of whether it is satiated.

If you eat meat either you can hunt the prey like you would in nature, or you can sit on your couch and watch tv while someone else butchers an animal for you. For some reason the former sounds more ethical to me.

I have never heard of animals killing for fun aka sport. That is the way of humans. Animals kill for food and to protect themselves, their babies, and their pack or whatever they travel in.
Once again I have never heard of an animal killing for fun.

It's not fun - it's instinct. Have you ever seen a cat chase a toy? He know's it's not the same as the food in his dish, but he can't resist chasing and subduing it. Same with wild predators.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,483
8,344
126
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
All hunters who kill living things are in essence murderers. I don't agree with killing as a sport but killing to stay alive is the way of nature.

Not really. Killing things unnecessarily or for the thrill of it is also the way of nature. A predator won't pass up easy prey generally, regardless of whether it is satiated.

If you eat meat either you can hunt the prey like you would in nature, or you can sit on your couch and watch tv while someone else butchers an animal for you. For some reason the former sounds more ethical to me.

I have never heard of animals killing for fun aka sport. That is the way of humans. Animals kill for food and to protect themselves, their babies, and their pack or whatever they travel in.
Once again I have never heard of an animal killing for fun.

You have a ton of "sportsman" out there that are simply hunting for the sake of killing the biggest damn thing they can. Head (rack) hunters for deer. Bear hunters that stuff them. Fisherman that mount them on a plaque. Safari hunters that charter trips to Africa. Ect.

These people rarely ever eat the stuff they kill. When things get that big/old the quality of the meat goes downhill fast. Big fish, big deer, bear, ect all start getting tough, chewy, and bad tasting.

The best tasting game is fairly young. For a deer it's a year or two old. For a bass it's 2 or 3 pounds. But those don't make good trophies.
 

txrandom

Diamond Member
Aug 15, 2004
3,773
0
71
The Ring-Necked Pheasant would be extinct in America if it weren't for hunters. ~ 60-70% of the males are killed each year. If males weren't kept in check, the females would starve to death in the winter.

Would you rather the species just die out in America?
 

Zysoclaplem

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2003
8,799
0
0
Originally posted by: sixone
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
All hunters who kill living things are in essence murderers. I don't agree with killing as a sport but killing to stay alive is the way of nature.

Not really. Killing things unnecessarily or for the thrill of it is also the way of nature. A predator won't pass up easy prey generally, regardless of whether it is satiated.

If you eat meat either you can hunt the prey like you would in nature, or you can sit on your couch and watch tv while someone else butchers an animal for you. For some reason the former sounds more ethical to me.

I have never heard of animals killing for fun aka sport. That is the way of humans. Animals kill for food and to protect themselves, their babies, and their pack or whatever they travel in.
Once again I have never heard of an animal killing for fun.

It's not fun - it's instinct. Have you ever seen a cat chase a toy? He know's it's not the same as the food in his dish, but he can't resist chasing and subduing it. Same with wild predators.

But what humans do is not instinct, nor is it curiosity. Hell most of the time it's so one sided why even try.
If you want the thrill of the kill go out and do it with your bare hands and see how you fare...lol.
 

Zysoclaplem

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2003
8,799
0
0
Originally posted by: vi_edit
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
All hunters who kill living things are in essence murderers. I don't agree with killing as a sport but killing to stay alive is the way of nature.

Not really. Killing things unnecessarily or for the thrill of it is also the way of nature. A predator won't pass up easy prey generally, regardless of whether it is satiated.

If you eat meat either you can hunt the prey like you would in nature, or you can sit on your couch and watch tv while someone else butchers an animal for you. For some reason the former sounds more ethical to me.

I have never heard of animals killing for fun aka sport. That is the way of humans. Animals kill for food and to protect themselves, their babies, and their pack or whatever they travel in.
Once again I have never heard of an animal killing for fun.

You have a ton of "sportsman" out there that are simply hunting for the sake of killing the biggest damn thing they can. Head (rack) hunters for deer. Bear hunters that stuff them. Fisherman that mount them on a plaque. Safari hunters that charter trips to Africa. Ect.

These people rarely ever eat the stuff they kill. When things get that big/old the quality of the meat goes downhill fast. Big fish, big deer, bear, ect all start getting tough, chewy, and bad tasting.

The best tasting game is fairly young. For a deer it's a year or two old. For a bass it's 2 or 3 pounds. But those don't make good trophies.

Yep
 

Zysoclaplem

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2003
8,799
0
0
Originally posted by: txrandom
The Ring-Necked Pheasant would be extinct in America if it weren't for hunters. ~ 60-70% of the males are killed each year. If males weren't kept in check, the females would starve to death in the winter.

Would you rather the species just die out in America?

Are they native to America? Is this where the first Ring-Necked Pheasants were found?
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,483
8,344
126
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
Originally posted by: sixone
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
All hunters who kill living things are in essence murderers. I don't agree with killing as a sport but killing to stay alive is the way of nature.

Not really. Killing things unnecessarily or for the thrill of it is also the way of nature. A predator won't pass up easy prey generally, regardless of whether it is satiated.

If you eat meat either you can hunt the prey like you would in nature, or you can sit on your couch and watch tv while someone else butchers an animal for you. For some reason the former sounds more ethical to me.

I have never heard of animals killing for fun aka sport. That is the way of humans. Animals kill for food and to protect themselves, their babies, and their pack or whatever they travel in.
Once again I have never heard of an animal killing for fun.

It's not fun - it's instinct. Have you ever seen a cat chase a toy? He know's it's not the same as the food in his dish, but he can't resist chasing and subduing it. Same with wild predators.

But what humans do is not instinct, nor is it curiosity. Hell most of the time it's so one sided why even try.
If you want the thrill of the kill go out and do it with your bare hands and see how you fare...lol.

I don't really "enjoy" killing a deer. And field dressing is even worse. But it's 60 pounds of lean meat that is great for burger, stews, jerky, and salami. Plus as JulesMaximus said I'm helping thin down a deer population that is grossly out of control. Diseases like mange and chronic wasting spread like wildfire when populations get out of check.

Plus when you hunt, kill, clean, and dress your own kill you tend to appreciate your food a little more than somebody that does it "by proxy" as was mentioned early through a butcher or grocery store.
 

torpid

Lifer
Sep 14, 2003
11,631
11
76
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
All hunters who kill living things are in essence murderers. I don't agree with killing as a sport but killing to stay alive is the way of nature.

Not really. Killing things unnecessarily or for the thrill of it is also the way of nature. A predator won't pass up easy prey generally, regardless of whether it is satiated.

If you eat meat either you can hunt the prey like you would in nature, or you can sit on your couch and watch tv while someone else butchers an animal for you. For some reason the former sounds more ethical to me.

I have never heard of animals killing for fun aka sport. That is the way of humans. Animals kill for food and to protect themselves, their babies, and their pack or whatever they travel in.
Once again I have never heard of an animal killing for fun.

I have no answer to why you have never heard of it. It's impossible to prove that you are not ignorant on this matter. Regardless of the fact that you haven't heard of it, it happens constantly. Animals hunt instinctively because it "pleases" them all the time. Do you think a cat that is well-fed at home who kills a mouse is doing so because it is protecting itself, its babies, or hungry? It's not. In the wild and when domesticated, a predator will often kill something without satisfying any of the requirements you listed.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: Aimster
He is correct.

That's right what you gonna do about it?
People who eat meat are horrible people as well.

The same goes for milk drinkers.

All of you are going to the hell

That's OK, there'll be plenty of hunting to do in hell, what with all the muslims being there.
 

Zysoclaplem

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2003
8,799
0
0
Originally posted by: vi_edit
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
Originally posted by: sixone
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
All hunters who kill living things are in essence murderers. I don't agree with killing as a sport but killing to stay alive is the way of nature.

Not really. Killing things unnecessarily or for the thrill of it is also the way of nature. A predator won't pass up easy prey generally, regardless of whether it is satiated.

If you eat meat either you can hunt the prey like you would in nature, or you can sit on your couch and watch tv while someone else butchers an animal for you. For some reason the former sounds more ethical to me.

I have never heard of animals killing for fun aka sport. That is the way of humans. Animals kill for food and to protect themselves, their babies, and their pack or whatever they travel in.
Once again I have never heard of an animal killing for fun.

It's not fun - it's instinct. Have you ever seen a cat chase a toy? He know's it's not the same as the food in his dish, but he can't resist chasing and subduing it. Same with wild predators.

But what humans do is not instinct, nor is it curiosity. Hell most of the time it's so one sided why even try.
If you want the thrill of the kill go out and do it with your bare hands and see how you fare...lol.

I don't really "enjoy" killing a deer. And field dressing is even worse. But it's 60 pounds of lean meat that is great for burger, stews, jerky, and salami. Plus as JulesMaximus said I'm helping thin down a deer population that is grossly out of control. Diseases like mange and chronic wasting spread like wildfire when populations get out of check.

Plus when you hunt, kill, clean, and dress your own kill you tend to appreciate your food a little more than somebody that does it "by proxy" as was mentioned early through a butcher or grocery store.

But some people do.
I don't have a problem will killing something to eat it. We have to eat to survive.
But if you really want that thrill go out and try to kill a moose with your bare hands. Hell you can even bring a knife if you want.
 

sixone

Lifer
May 3, 2004
25,030
4
61
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
Originally posted by: sixone
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
All hunters who kill living things are in essence murderers. I don't agree with killing as a sport but killing to stay alive is the way of nature.

Not really. Killing things unnecessarily or for the thrill of it is also the way of nature. A predator won't pass up easy prey generally, regardless of whether it is satiated.

If you eat meat either you can hunt the prey like you would in nature, or you can sit on your couch and watch tv while someone else butchers an animal for you. For some reason the former sounds more ethical to me.

I have never heard of animals killing for fun aka sport. That is the way of humans. Animals kill for food and to protect themselves, their babies, and their pack or whatever they travel in.
Once again I have never heard of an animal killing for fun.

It's not fun - it's instinct. Have you ever seen a cat chase a toy? He know's it's not the same as the food in his dish, but he can't resist chasing and subduing it. Same with wild predators.

But what humans do is not instinct, nor is it curiosity. Hell most of the time it's so one sided why even try.
If you want the thrill of the kill go out and do it with your bare hands and see how you fare...lol.

One sided? Hardly - that's why it's called "hunting". Otherwise, it would be called "target practice".
 

Zysoclaplem

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2003
8,799
0
0
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
All hunters who kill living things are in essence murderers. I don't agree with killing as a sport but killing to stay alive is the way of nature.

Not really. Killing things unnecessarily or for the thrill of it is also the way of nature. A predator won't pass up easy prey generally, regardless of whether it is satiated.

If you eat meat either you can hunt the prey like you would in nature, or you can sit on your couch and watch tv while someone else butchers an animal for you. For some reason the former sounds more ethical to me.

I have never heard of animals killing for fun aka sport. That is the way of humans. Animals kill for food and to protect themselves, their babies, and their pack or whatever they travel in.
Once again I have never heard of an animal killing for fun.

I have no answer to why you have never heard of it. It's impossible to prove that you are not ignorant on this matter. Regardless of the fact that you haven't heard of it, it happens constantly. Animals hunt instinctively because it "pleases" them all the time. Do you think a cat that is well-fed at home who kills a mouse is doing so because it is protecting itself, its babies, or hungry? It's not. In the wild and when domesticated, a predator will often kill something without satisfying any of the requirements you listed.

Curiosity and Instinct. Not all predators have them but some do. Not intent to kill with the knowledge of what killing means.
We know better. Sort of like stealing, raping, etc.etc.. If killing other humans was made legal how long would you survive?
 

Zysoclaplem

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2003
8,799
0
0
Originally posted by: sixone
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
Originally posted by: sixone
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
All hunters who kill living things are in essence murderers. I don't agree with killing as a sport but killing to stay alive is the way of nature.

Not really. Killing things unnecessarily or for the thrill of it is also the way of nature. A predator won't pass up easy prey generally, regardless of whether it is satiated.

If you eat meat either you can hunt the prey like you would in nature, or you can sit on your couch and watch tv while someone else butchers an animal for you. For some reason the former sounds more ethical to me.

I have never heard of animals killing for fun aka sport. That is the way of humans. Animals kill for food and to protect themselves, their babies, and their pack or whatever they travel in.
Once again I have never heard of an animal killing for fun.

It's not fun - it's instinct. Have you ever seen a cat chase a toy? He know's it's not the same as the food in his dish, but he can't resist chasing and subduing it. Same with wild predators.

But what humans do is not instinct, nor is it curiosity. Hell most of the time it's so one sided why even try.
If you want the thrill of the kill go out and do it with your bare hands and see how you fare...lol.

One sided? Hardly - that's why it's called "hunting". Otherwise, it would be called "target practice".

I didn't say it was easy. I said it was one sided. That deer is not going to pull out a gun of it's own and return fire.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,483
8,344
126
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

I didn't say it was easy. I said it was one sided. That deer is not going to pull out a gun of it's own and return fire.

I'm trying to get your viewpoint. You seem to bounce back and forth.

Do you agree with hunting out of function (food, necessary thinning of population) and disagree with hunting for "sport" (aka trophy hunting)?

Or neither one?
 

Zysoclaplem

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2003
8,799
0
0
Originally posted by: vi_edit
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

I didn't say it was easy. I said it was one sided. That deer is not going to pull out a gun of it's own and return fire.

I'm trying to get your viewpoint. You seem to bounce back and forth.

Do you agree with hunting out of function (food, necessary thinning of population) and disagree with hunting for "sport" (aka trophy hunting)?

Or neither one?

I don't agree with either. But I don't have a problem with killing if you plan to use what you kill. Not being wasteful. Specifically eating it, because that is required for your and my survival. I do not agree with thinning the population and I do not agree with hunting for fun until you also plan to eat what you kill.
 

moshquerade

No Lifer
Nov 1, 2001
61,504
12
56
Originally posted by: JEDI
My first thought was:
WTF r u talking about? How stupid and ignorant are you?

But that satement wasnt assertive. it was aggressive.

My next thought was changing the conversation or just walking away.
But that's passive to me wanting to express my opinion that he's wrong.

So what's the assertive thing to say?

shove a sock in his mouth and walk away. if you feel nice make it a clean sock.

or... you could tell him that plants cry too when they are cut.
 

torpid

Lifer
Sep 14, 2003
11,631
11
76
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
Curiosity and Instinct. Not all predators have them but some do. Not intent to kill with the knowledge of what killing means.
We know better. Sort of like stealing, raping, etc.etc.. If killing other humans was made legal how long would you survive?

Way to change your argument entirely and ignore my question about meat. The fact is that animals kill each other for the thrill of it. You were wrong and your statement about that was wrong. You've now moved on to a completely different argument about higher consciousness. You believe it is wrong for a human being to act as an animal does daily because humans have awareness and the ability to override instinct. You are ok with hunting or what you call the murder of animals as long as someone ingests some part of the body of the animal killed.

Your only legitimate complaint in this regard is against hunters who kill and then do not actually do anything with the meat. You can't argue that the hunter should have to eat the meat him or herself unless you are also morally opposed to cattle ranches that are used to create meat, since the person responsible for killing the cows is not eating the meat directly either in that case, and in fact is committing what would logically seem like a far worse sin of murdering an animal for PROFIT.

Going back to the hunter who kills but does not use the carcass. I think that should be illegal actually. I would be surprised if there weren't ordinances against leaving the carcass there, but obviously we do not (but should) mandate that any meaty animal killed for sport should be used for food directly or donated to a needy shelter.

But the rest is just bleeding heart hogwash.
 

jjones

Lifer
Oct 9, 2001
15,424
2
0
The correct response is to say, "I'm hungry. I like you, we'll talk again when you've managed to extract your head from your ass and you don't have to speak around all those kibbles and bits."
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
59,208
13,801
136
Originally posted by: moshquerade
Originally posted by: JEDI
My first thought was:
WTF r u talking about? How stupid and ignorant are you?

But that satement wasnt assertive. it was aggressive.

My next thought was changing the conversation or just walking away.
But that's passive to me wanting to express my opinion that he's wrong.

So what's the assertive thing to say?

shove a sock in his mouth and walk away. if you feel nice make it a clean sock.

or... you could tell him that plants cry too when they are cut.

Oh, you said "sock" :eek:
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,534
911
126
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Well, since 3 hours has brought no decent factual responses...here goes. Ask him if he prefers that a large portion of the deer population in this country die from disease and starvation, because that's what will happen if the is no hunting allowed. Deer largely have no natural predators on this continent anymore and if their population is left unchecked they will die, suffering, in huge numbers of disease and starvation.

Hunting is a necessary part of conservation and wildlife management and your co-worker is an ill informed idiot. Besides, the fees hunters pay for licensing and deer tags every year more than pay for the agencies that enforce and manage the wildlife in this country and the meat is used to feed people ranging from the poor to those who like to eat natural food. It's a win win situation...well, except for those who've watched Bambie too many times.

So, nobody wants a decent answer then? :confused:

What is a deer's natural predator?

Wolves and large cat breeds. Two species we've managed to almost completely wipe out on this continent.

Now the only predator left in any decent numbers is man.
 

moshquerade

No Lifer
Nov 1, 2001
61,504
12
56
Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Originally posted by: moshquerade
Originally posted by: JEDI
My first thought was:
WTF r u talking about? How stupid and ignorant are you?

But that satement wasnt assertive. it was aggressive.

My next thought was changing the conversation or just walking away.
But that's passive to me wanting to express my opinion that he's wrong.

So what's the assertive thing to say?

shove a sock in his mouth and walk away. if you feel nice make it a clean sock.

or... you could tell him that plants cry too when they are cut.

Oh, you said "sock" :eek:
whatchutalkinbout? :p
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,534
911
126
Originally posted by: sixone
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
All hunters who kill living things are in essence murderers. I don't agree with killing as a sport but killing to stay alive is the way of nature.

Not really. Killing things unnecessarily or for the thrill of it is also the way of nature. A predator won't pass up easy prey generally, regardless of whether it is satiated.

If you eat meat either you can hunt the prey like you would in nature, or you can sit on your couch and watch tv while someone else butchers an animal for you. For some reason the former sounds more ethical to me.

I have never heard of animals killing for fun aka sport. That is the way of humans. Animals kill for food and to protect themselves, their babies, and their pack or whatever they travel in.
Once again I have never heard of an animal killing for fun.

It's not fun - it's instinct. Have you ever seen a cat chase a toy? He know's it's not the same as the food in his dish, but he can't resist chasing and subduing it. Same with wild predators.

Yes, it is instinct but cats play to hone their skills and they do eat their prey. Hell, my cat kills mice and birds. She brings them home alive and plays with them for a while before she kills them. She eats a little of the meat but I usually end up throwing a dead bird carcass in the trash.

Wild animals do not kill for fun. They do it to survive.
 

moshquerade

No Lifer
Nov 1, 2001
61,504
12
56
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Well, since 3 hours has brought no decent factual responses...here goes. Ask him if he prefers that a large portion of the deer population in this country die from disease and starvation, because that's what will happen if the is no hunting allowed. Deer largely have no natural predators on this continent anymore and if their population is left unchecked they will die, suffering, in huge numbers of disease and starvation.

Hunting is a necessary part of conservation and wildlife management and your co-worker is an ill informed idiot. Besides, the fees hunters pay for licensing and deer tags every year more than pay for the agencies that enforce and manage the wildlife in this country and the meat is used to feed people ranging from the poor to those who like to eat natural food. It's a win win situation...well, except for those who've watched Bambie too many times.

So, nobody wants a decent answer then? :confused:

What is a deer's natural predator?

Wolves and large cat breeds. Two species we've managed to almost completely wipe out on this continent.

Now the only predator left in any decent numbers is man.

Mmmm venison. They practically BEG hunters to bag deer around here. They get overpopulated and then meet with disease/starvation and the number of car-deer accident goes up.
 

TheKub

Golden Member
Oct 2, 2001
1,756
1
0
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
But what humans do is not instinct, nor is it curiosity. Hell most of the time it's so one sided why even try.
If you want the thrill of the kill go out and do it with your bare hands and see how you fare...lol.

Um, animals have natural defenses (horns/claws/size). Humans have higher intelligence with which we use to make tools to overcome our natural defensive short comings. So by using a gun/spear/etc we are merely taking advantage of what we have just like a bear/deer/etc.

Yeah you would be happy for a hunter to go after a dear with a knife (who most likely would get hurt/die) until you realized that the few wounds that the hunter inflicted would most likely result in a very slow painful death due to infection. A rifle/shotgun spares them of that (as long as the hunter is skilled and not just shooting without aiming)




 

SarcasticDwarf

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2001
9,574
1
76
Originally posted by: vi_edit
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
All hunters who kill living things are in essence murderers. I don't agree with killing as a sport but killing to stay alive is the way of nature.

Not really. Killing things unnecessarily or for the thrill of it is also the way of nature. A predator won't pass up easy prey generally, regardless of whether it is satiated.

If you eat meat either you can hunt the prey like you would in nature, or you can sit on your couch and watch tv while someone else butchers an animal for you. For some reason the former sounds more ethical to me.

I have never heard of animals killing for fun aka sport. That is the way of humans. Animals kill for food and to protect themselves, their babies, and their pack or whatever they travel in.
Once again I have never heard of an animal killing for fun.

You have a ton of "sportsman" out there that are simply hunting for the sake of killing the biggest damn thing they can. Head (rack) hunters for deer. Bear hunters that stuff them. Fisherman that mount them on a plaque. Safari hunters that charter trips to Africa. Ect.

These people rarely ever eat the stuff they kill. When things get that big/old the quality of the meat goes downhill fast. Big fish, big deer, bear, ect all start getting tough, chewy, and bad tasting.

The best tasting game is fairly young. For a deer it's a year or two old. For a bass it's 2 or 3 pounds. But those don't make good trophies.

That is definitely NOT the case in Wisconsin when it comes to deer season. You are basically required to take the deer with you, and anyone that does not want to keep the meat will take it to any of the meat processors. There they will process the meat for free and donate it to various food pantries.