Beater became deathtrap

imported_Imp

Diamond Member
Dec 20, 2005
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Yet another new car thread.

So in the past week, our beater (early '90s Dodge Spirit) went from being an unreliable staller to a staller with virtually no brakes. Flooring the pedal will only bring it to a gental stop now, so after thousands in repairs, it's finally time for a new car.

We are looking for a budget, moderately sized Japanese car. Aside from the questionable future existance of the Big-3, we've driven American for 20 years unhappilly, so we're looking for change; yes, I know that newer American cars are as reliable as Japanese ones, but too little too late.

The short-list right includes the 2009 Toyota Matrix or Corolla, or the 2009 Honda Civic DX. At the moment, they all hover around $23k CAN after taxes. With the Matrix as a benchmark, the Corolla is ~$2500 cheaper and the Civic is $500 more. The Honda Fit and Yaris have been considered, but both have been deemed 'too small'.

I'm leaning towards the Matrix cause of the hatchback styling and the slightly smaller size. In terms of experience, I've driven a 2006 Civic and loved it, especially response, customizability and controls layout. I've also driven a 2002 Corolla, and am ambivalent. It feels 'cheap', especially the plastics and interior. However, I hear that it has been redesigned.

Usage is generally light. It'll mainly be a grocery store runner or a 'shuttle'. Not much highway usage planned (might change).

I'm doing research now, but I'd love to hear some opinions on what you'd choose. Other suggestions are also welcome.

Edit: Also want to ask if anyone knows any bargaining tips. What do we ask for, how is the game played?

Edit2: Added a new poll with a list of alternates or the "lesser-A" list.

Edit3:

Update: got the Civic DX 2009.
 

BassBomb

Diamond Member
Nov 25, 2005
8,390
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I will suggest not to bother finding a used Civic. I was in your boat from August to October looking for a used Civic/Accord, with our brand new options either Civic or Corolla.

Every Civic you could find at a decent price were in horrible condition. The ones in good condition cost almost the new price. We ended up with a 2007 Accord EX-L navi for 23k

I felt the brand new corolla felt really cheap interior compared to the Civic. We were looking at the Corolla S or LE vs the 2008 Civic LX and 2009 Civic "Sport" which is the new LX trim for 2009.
 

imported_Imp

Diamond Member
Dec 20, 2005
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Personally, I did consider used. However, other people in the family found out that "used" cars were comprised of, among other things, repos. So it's either the bad karma, or the fact that we've driven used our entire lives, and don't want to deal with the possibility of existing 'issues'.

A dealership run is booked for the next few weekends, so 'used' isn't completely off the table. If the price is right, and something good comes up, we will consider it.
 

cheesehead

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
10,079
0
0
MAZDA 3.

Preferably the hatchback.

My father has one. It's been totally reliable, it protected him beautifully when a drunken idiot ran through a red light, and it's tough enough that it still drives just as well as it did before the accident. (We actually had to tell the garage about it - they couldn't tell it had been in one!) Fuel economy is good (37MPG if you're anal), cargo space is good, seats are good (the cheap seats on the original version are icky, though - the leather and newer cloth seats are much better) and the stereo's not bad either. Rear seats could be better, but they're pretty comparable to a Civic or Camry.

Only downside?

It is - technically - a Ford.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
98,036
16,767
126
Originally posted by: Cheesehead
MAZDA 3.

Preferably the hatchback.

My father has one. It's been totally reliable, it protected him beautifully when a drunken idiot ran through a red light, and it's tough enough that it still drives just as well as it did before the accident. (We actually had to tell the garage about it - they couldn't tell it had been in one!) Fuel economy is good (37MPG if you're anal), cargo space is good, seats are good (the cheap seats on the original version are icky, though - the leather and newer cloth seats are much better) and the stereo's not bad either. Rear seats could be better, but they're pretty comparable to a Civic or Camry.

Only downside?

It is - technically - a Ford.

I think it's the other way around, Ford buys the Mazda engines and detune them.
 

imported_Imp

Diamond Member
Dec 20, 2005
9,148
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Mazda 3 is an interesting choice. Looks like it's technically a Ford alright, slightly cheaper than the Civic and Matrix, but looks hell of a lot better. Some quick googling turned up some mildly worrisome reliability issues though.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
98,036
16,767
126
check your local dealerships for 08 model leftovers, you might be able to get a Mazda 6 into the price range of an 09 3.
 

cheesehead

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
10,079
0
0
Originally posted by: sdifox


I think it's the other way around, Ford buys the Mazda engines and detune them.

Ford owns a controlling stake in Mazda, if not all of it. Also, the Mazda engines have a lot of things the Ford engines don't, including variable valve timing.

Originally posted by: Imp
Mazda 3 is an interesting choice. Looks like it's technically a Ford alright, slightly cheaper than the Civic and Matrix, but looks hell of a lot better. Some quick googling turned up some mildly worrisome reliability issues though.

My father has had one for nearly five years - not a single problem. Nothing. This is a car used for daily commuting and drives 1,350 miles (roundtrip) to see his parents once or twice a year.

Same applies to a guy who I used to play D&D with. His was at least three years old, and he had a long commute.

The big problem I hear about is rust, but waxing it twice a year - spring and autumn - with good old-fashioned Turtle Wax has resulted in none I can see.
 

MikeMike

Lifer
Feb 6, 2000
45,885
66
91
you seem to want a car that will be hassle free for 10+ years... go with the Civic, but try and get above a DX, iirc it only comes with non ABS brakes and yes there IS a difference between abs and non abs, with abs winning... get the lx if possible, is about $2k more or so.

Hondas last forever honestly. they dont die. i feel they have better quality and reliability than any other model out there...
 

BassBomb

Diamond Member
Nov 25, 2005
8,390
1
81
Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE
you seem to want a car that will be hassle free for 10+ years... go with the Civic, but try and get above a DX, iirc it only comes with non ABS brakes and yes there IS a difference between abs and non abs, with abs winning... get the lx if possible, is about $2k more or so.

Hondas last forever honestly. they dont die. i feel they have better quality and reliability than any other model out there...

LX is now the Sport in Canada.

Comes with seats similar to the coupe, 4 wheel disc brakes, sunroof, exhaust tip and spoiler along with all the previous LX features

Oh and also a USB port
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,002
115
106
What about the Pontiac Vibe? It is a rebadged Matrix essentially that goes for quite a bit less, iirc.

Heck, if you are considering cars that small, why not go for a smart fortwo? Do you have a need for much cargo capacity?
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
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Originally posted by: MovingTarget
What about the Pontiac Vibe? It is a rebadged Matrix essentially that goes for quite a bit less, iirc.

Heck, if you are considering cars that small, why not go for a smart fortwo? Do you have a need for much cargo capacity?

Especially used, from what I can see - Depreciates almost as bad as other Pontiacs.

My Mom is 4.5 years into a 2004 Vibe, with 120k (about 75k miles) on it and absolutely no issues.
 

cheesehead

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
10,079
0
0
Originally posted by: MovingTarget
What about the Pontiac Vibe? It is a rebadged Matrix essentially that goes for quite a bit less, iirc.

Good idea, now that you mention it. I've been in both, and the interior quality is pretty much equal - but the Vibe is much cheaper. If I'm not mistaken, three people on my block alone have one.

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Heck, if you are considering cars that small, why not go for a smart fortwo? Do you have a need for much cargo capacity?

Originally posted by: Imp The Honda Fit and Yaris have been considered, but
both have been deemed 'too small'.

Q.E.D.

That said, you really ought to try the Fit on a test drive - it's surprisingly roomy on the inside, the price is right, the fuel economy is terrific, and the safety is top-notch. Fold the rear seats down, and the hatchback makes it a world-class grocery hauler.

And it will last for a very long time.
 

Sukhoi

Elite Member
Dec 5, 1999
15,341
102
106
Originally posted by: MovingTarget
What about the Pontiac Vibe? It is a rebadged Matrix essentially that goes for quite a bit less, iirc.

Heck, if you are considering cars that small, why not go for a smart fortwo? Do you have a need for much cargo capacity?

While the Vibe and Matrix are the same thing in regards to design, they are not assembled at the same place. Vibe is done at NUMMI, and Matrix at TMMC. Let's just say workmanship isn't exactly the pride of NUMMI.
 

imported_Imp

Diamond Member
Dec 20, 2005
9,148
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I really, really want a Vibe and the other people paying/driving were initially onboard... then came news; they have no confidence in American right now. I know the Vibe is a Toyota with a better shell, but they are afraid of the failure of GM and the future support of their warranties/parts. In all honesty, it's a very remote possibility that they will just go bankrupt, so my guess is that another reason is that they want to try out pure 'Japanese reliability'. That and American cars don't hold their value as well.

The Civic is the frontrunner, which means that we'll definately hit a Honda dealership, and probably check out a Fit while we're at it. I'll have to recheck the DX for ABS though.

Smart and Mini are out due to size. The major function will be grocerie runs, so we'll need cargo space.

Oh, and the Mazda 3 is getting a bit more steam. Someone we know just got one, and they seem happy. In terms of reliability, everything is fine except I'm seeing reports of 'enginie mounts' being cheap and breaking?

Anyways, thanks for all the input so far.
 

cheesehead

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
10,079
0
0
Originally posted by: Imp
I really, really want a Vibe and the other people paying/driving were initially onboard... then came news; they have no confidence in American right now. I know the Vibe is a Toyota with a better shell, but they are afraid of the failure of GM and the future support of their warranties/parts. In all honesty, it's a very remote possibility that they will just go bankrupt, so my guess is that another reason is that they want to try out pure 'Japanese reliability'. That and American cars don't hold their value as well.

I don't honestly know what they're talking about in terms of engine mounts. The car is almost identical (on the sheetmetal level, anyway) to the Focus and Volvo C30.

Also, other people paying are being idiots. GM is one of the world's largest multinational corporations - the chance of it dying is less than that of being hit by lightning. And even if it does, all the parts are made - and sold - by Toyota. Any independent garage can install them.

The Vibe is - for better or worse - a slightly larger car than the Mazda3, and as such fuel economy is a bit better. While the interior is a bit cheap, it's well made, and everyone I've talked to who has bought one (quite a few people, actually) have reported better reliability than some Toyota products (which aren't what they once were.) If you want to haul a lot or move both people and stuff, this is the car to buy.

The Fit is a very good car - as far as I can tell, it's better for hauling things than the Civic in hatch or sedan form, though the rear seats do leave a bit to be desired. Both the Fit and Honda have won IIHS safety awards, too - though the Vibe and Mazda3 aren't bad either.

The Mazda3 is, however, strongly recommended. I've driven it a bit, and it's really a lovely car - the steering is light, the gearshift is easy, and the clutch hasn't got a brick tied to it. (And I can't really drive stickshift - it's really an easy gearbox.) The stereo isn't too bad, either, and the interior seems to be more solid than its' biggest competitor, the Volkswagen Golf.

There's yet another option, too: the Suzuki SX4. It's got a decent engine, four-wheel drive has about the same interior space than the Mazda3, and costs under $15,000 with a very large amount of standard equipment including air conditioning . Predicted reliability is not as good as the other options, but no one on the internet has major gripes with the model and a similarly-equipped Mazda3 would cost thousands more. The four-wheel-drive might be useful if you live in an area with bad weather, too.

If you want to buy used, consider a Mazda 323 or perhaps a Ford Focus wagon. A good friend has the latter, and it's been nothing but reliable.
 

thomsbrain

Lifer
Dec 4, 2001
18,148
1
0
The Fit is an infinitely better car than the Matrix, and I'd bet that it has more storage space. It's like a clown car in there, you'd be simply amazed at how much room there is. If you haven't actually looked at one yet, don't cross it off your list. It's probably better equipped than a Civic DX, and it has WAY more usefulness for hauling things. Unless you're getting a Civic Si, there's not much reason to buy a Civic anymore unless you just don't like the way the Fit looks.
 

Knavish

Senior member
May 17, 2002
910
3
81
I'd also jump on the honda > toyota bandwagon, based on my HUGE :) sample set: my wife has a 2005 Corolla and a friend has a 2006 Civic, both purchased new. The corolla is a bit cheap / flimsy feeling inside compared to the civic. For example, on the corolla, the door on a little compartment beneath the radio has a broken hinge already. I also think the toyota engine has become a bit rough feeling since it was purchased vs. the very smooth honda engine. (Maybe this is just me noticing it at a higher idle speed in the recent cold weather).

---

You do realize that the Fit is new for 2009, right? Isn't the new model bigger than the one it replaces?
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
FEAR is what drives people to new vs old because of existing "issues". What exactly is an issue a used car can have that a warranty cannot take care of? Used cars are absolutely the knees on the bee and the cat's meow, just buy a late model used so that you have full bumper to bumper warranty left. Then, as long as it's been maintained (can be hard to know, but generally cars are, and if you can get records Bob's your uncle), there is nothing to be scared about except the fear of buying a new econobox instead of a 1-2 year old midsize sedan far better appointed.

Anyway, why not a mazda 3?

Warranty on them is great. Mazda is still an underdog compared to honda/toyota and even nissan and its cars are cheaper. A one year old 3 would be really cheap, I bet.
 

imported_Imp

Diamond Member
Dec 20, 2005
9,148
0
0
Originally posted by: Knavish
The corolla is a bit cheap / flimsy feeling inside compared to the civic. For example, on the corolla, the door on a little compartment beneath the radio has a broken hinge already.

That's the second time I've heard someone say that about the Corolla. I drove one for about a month and never noticed it, even after having driven a Civic for months. I gotta sit in some more cars...

Anyways, nothing is definately crossed off the list. When you start putting $20k in the air, you start wanting to explore your options a lot more:).

I just realized this morning that the awesome looking parked, metallic-grey car I admire every morning on my way to work is infact a Mazda 3. So I'll try to get the other 'stakeholders' to hit up a Mazda dealership. Maybe there's a better chance of finding an '08 Mazda than the aforementioned Toyotas/Hondas. Gas mileage seems to be slightly worse than the others though, but that's the cheap/environmentalist whore in me. Wish we could 'afford' a Prius...
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,542
921
126
Originally posted by: Cheesehead
MAZDA 3.

Preferably the hatchback.

My father has one. It's been totally reliable, it protected him beautifully when a drunken idiot ran through a red light, and it's tough enough that it still drives just as well as it did before the accident. (We actually had to tell the garage about it - they couldn't tell it had been in one!) Fuel economy is good (37MPG if you're anal), cargo space is good, seats are good (the cheap seats on the original version are icky, though - the leather and newer cloth seats are much better) and the stereo's not bad either. Rear seats could be better, but they're pretty comparable to a Civic or Camry.

Only downside?

It is - technically - a Ford.

A friend of mine had one but didn't like the sport suspension or the low profile 17" wheels. He felt that the ride was too rough (and he rides a Ducati motorcycle). I've driven one and it seemed fine to me though.
 

Turin39789

Lifer
Nov 21, 2000
12,218
8
81
Nothing on your A list. The Fit is nice but pricey. From the list I'd do vibe or mazda3, but

We had a vibe and it was a great car until I slammed it into a few highway barriers, held up well.

Just got done doing a shopping trip, ended up with a ford. A friend is looking for a new car, and like you will only consider a japanese model.

I think it's hysteria, but it's there wallet that will be hurting.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Being a Ford is my Mazda 3's biggest upside.
It gets the full benefit of Euro Ford's and Volvo's platform engineering, so it drives like a premium compact, not an econobox from the competition.
Mazda3's biggest downside is that a new one is coming out very soon, so if you can't wait, you'll be driving "last-gen" car next year. That said, it's still by far the best car on the list.