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BBC: "Drugs for ADHD 'not the answer'"

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Legend

Platinum Member
Apr 21, 2005
2,254
1
0
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
If kids taking drugs don't turn out any better than the ones only getting therapy, why are we stunting their growth by pumping them full of amphetamines and such? Granted, a lot of people like their speed, and there is a big industry built around that market, but I can't see how pushing it on hyper kids can be considered any better than rubbing whisky on a crying baby's gums.
Stunting growth? My brother is 6 feet tall and he's been on adderall since he as 12...you're just pulling shit out of your ass here.

I had been taking Ritalin for several years, and I tried hollistic (meh results, and expensive, but better sleep). Recently I tried strattera for nearly 2 months, and I didn't react well at all. I pretty much had all of the negative side effects (dark urine, ED - LOL).

I was re-diagnosed with inattentive ADD. What does that mean? Well, there's a ton of different variations of the disorder that we label as ADD. Some relating into anxiety, hyperactivity, impulsiveness. But they are very different. Strictly inattentive ADD is usually caused by a deficiency of dopamine receptors -- which is why strattera didn't work for me...it's for the impulsive/hyperactive ADDers with their norepinephrine deficiency. Adderall pacifies dopamine receptors, and I've gotten on with my life again.

Adderall XR is not some crack like drug. It's very subtle, and goes on over 10 hours. If you want to compare an ADD drug to real drugs, the closest is probably instant release Ritalin. It acts over about 2-3 hours.

As for the long term ineffectiveness...well no shit. I take one every morning. Yes, sometimes I look at it as a crutch. I think that without ADD meds, I probably would have a terrible life. I was the kid that was tutored and failing school in elementary school, and went to graduating the top of my class in engineering. But then again, without modern technology, I wouldn't have contacts either -- pretty much at least half of us would be dead if we were born 500 years ago.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: Legend
Stunting growth? My brother is 6 feet tall and he's been on adderall since he as 12...you're just pulling shit out of your ass here.
Nah, I'm just repeating the findings of the study as reported in the article. You on the other hand are trying to base an argument on anecdotal evidence.
 

Legend

Platinum Member
Apr 21, 2005
2,254
1
0
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: Legend
Stunting growth? My brother is 6 feet tall and he's been on adderall since he as 12...you're just pulling shit out of your ass here.
Nah, I'm just repeating the findings of the study as reported in the article. You on the other hand are trying to base an argument on anecdotal evidence.
This?

The findings by an influential US study also suggested long-term use of the drugs could stunt children's growth.
Is extremely vague, and as far as science goes it does not hold. Were there actual subjects? What indicated that it interrupted long term growth? By how much? What age did they start? What ADD drug? What dosage? Is there a false correlation between drug usage and height, and the possibility of a correlation between the disorder and height? Did they find that ADD drugs suppress appetite during the initial days of usage, and falsely construe that it would lead to a shorter height over years?

Resonability check: Where are the millions of extremely short teens/adults that used ADD meds?

If you're one of those nutjobs that doesn't acknowledge that ADD is a disorder, then please systematically go through the studies listed here and debunk them:

http://addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16810
 

skace

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
14,488
7
81
I have a personal grudge against ADD and everything surrounding it. Mainly because I was almost diagnosed with it as a child but was instead found to have mild allergies (food intolerances) with Red Dye 40. Which is found in a disgusting number of food products. My mom was a certified nurse at the time (still is for that matter) and swears by the results she found when pulling me off this substance. I was an exceptionally hyper-active child, broke my moms nose, broke several windows, they had a lot of trouble keeping me focused on anything until they eliminated this. Doctors wanted me put on drugs.

Despite that, food allergies regarding Red Dye 40 are STILL anecdotal at best. FDA has even put out an official response that says they could find very little link between hyperactivity and Red Dye 40. Even so, you can do a search for anecdotal evidence and find it everywhere and if my kid was hyperactive it would be the first thing (not the last) that I would be doing to counter it.

The scarier thing is the history of food dyes. Most people will immediately think food dyes have been around for ages, which is true. But not our current food dyes. At one point they were all made with plants and insects. Our current batch is man made chemically in labs. And of more than 200 or so that at one time existed (up to as late as 1960), only about 8 exist at this point in time, and of those Red Dye 40 is the most popular. And then you have to realize, Red Dye 40 isn't even that old (http://www.time.com/time/magaz...0,9171,945520,00.html).
 

spittledip

Diamond Member
Apr 23, 2005
4,480
1
81
Medication for things like ADHD is nothing more than treating symptoms. It's like taking cough syrup when you ahve a cold- not really fixing the problem, just addressing symptoms. Medication is supposed to be used to help alleviate symptoms temporarily to make it easier while children and families are taught to deal with their symptoms.. which are more likely due to a mix of improper parenting and personality and genetic tendencies rather than just genetic or biological issues alone.

People also forget that diagnosis like ADHD are not really the diagnosis of a condition or a disease, but the diagnosis of a group of symptoms. Having ADHD is not like having AIDS or the flu- there is no definitive biological thing to point to as cause. The diagnosis in the The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual is not supposed to be used for labeling of "conditions"- it is for professionals to use to group together similar symptoms to help assist with treatment- it is not an actual medical condition. However, sice the 60s, the DSM and psychology in general has been hijacked by the medical system and pharms. This was not due to good research- it was due to politics.. like alot of research out there.

My feeling is this stuff is about money more than anything else.. and ego. Alot of people want their discipline to reign supreme. Also, if a person has a theory, they often go to grat lengths to make sure their theory is supported by research, even if it takes some fudging. People do not like their analysis's to be proven wrong as that might mean their thinking ability/analytical abilities are lacking. Also if people are paid to do research they are paid to get results just like anything else. Yes, i am skeptical b/c
I have seen alot of bad research that both support and go against what I think. You usually find the worst research reported on in newspapers it seems.

As for the article itself (all psycholological studies and scientific studies should be taken with a grain of salt)

I am having trouble finding anything but conclusions. no mention of sample size or anything else. Or method. Without htis information and other information i have no idea how the people who have posted in this thread so far have made any conclusion about the study either way. It might be a good study or it might be a bad one. But you cant tell from the article. The only thing that is good about it is that it is long term.. other than that there is no info about it.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,990
853
126
Why mental illness is still treated the way it is in this country is sickening. So much of mental illness is caused by things outside anyone's control...like diabetes or autism.

Anyway.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
2
0
Why mental illness is still treated the way it is in this country is sickening. So much of mental illness is caused by things outside anyone's control...like diabetes or autism.
Some things, but not all.

---

I love the armchair psychiatrists that inevitably pop up in these threads, oblivious to the fact that millions of people have been successfully treated with medication and many rely on them on a continual basis, confident that without the medication their life would go back to the worse state it used to be in. Some things are cureable, some aren't. Some are best treated with drugs, some aren't. Humankind has been treating broken legs for millenia. Drugs developed to treat a specific mental symptom is a pretty new science and will frequently stumble.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,990
853
126
Agreed, Skoorb. But I think as a general rule, it's still stigma'd (word cration FTW).

As a general rule I always talk in generalites. Because generalities are generally true. ;)
 

MonkeyK

Golden Member
May 27, 2001
1,396
8
81
Originally posted by: skace
I have a personal grudge against ADD and everything surrounding it. Mainly because I was almost diagnosed with it as a child but was instead found to have mild allergies (food intolerances) with Red Dye 40. Which is found in a disgusting number of food products. My mom was a certified nurse at the time (still is for that matter) and swears by the results she found when pulling me off this substance. I was an exceptionally hyper-active child, broke my moms nose, broke several windows, they had a lot of trouble keeping me focused on anything until they eliminated this. Doctors wanted me put on drugs.

Despite that, food allergies regarding Red Dye 40 are STILL anecdotal at best. FDA has even put out an official response that says they could find very little link between hyperactivity and Red Dye 40. Even so, you can do a search for anecdotal evidence and find it everywhere and if my kid was hyperactive it would be the first thing (not the last) that I would be doing to counter it.

The scarier thing is the history of food dyes. Most people will immediately think food dyes have been around for ages, which is true. But not our current food dyes. At one point they were all made with plants and insects. Our current batch is man made chemically in labs. And of more than 200 or so that at one time existed (up to as late as 1960), only about 8 exist at this point in time, and of those Red Dye 40 is the most popular. And then you have to realize, Red Dye 40 isn't even that old (http://www.time.com/time/magaz...0,9171,945520,00.html).
I'm glad that something as simple as Red Dye solved your problem. From 1975-77, I went through the Dye theory, the low carb theory, behavior modification theory, and Tofranil (a depressant). A teacher finally complained about me drooling in class, and my parents stopped the Tofranil.
After that they left the problem to sort itself out.
However, school report cards consitently contained comments like "has potential but lacks ambition" and "started off great but lost interest halfway through". This is from elementary school through college. Doesn't sound so bad, but try to imagine what it is like to not be able to remain interested in something long enough to really do your best.
By the time that I tried addressing things on my own (after 30), psychiatrists could see ADD, but found it far to difficult to work it out though depression. (and having had a couple of bad run-ins with depression medication, I refuse to try depression medication again)


I see a lot of people spouting out their beliefs about how it is
more likely due to a mix of improper parenting and personality and genetic tendencies
Oh; I figured it just didn't exist because we were thrown out of the house to go play everyday instead of placed in front of the TV and Playstations for hours on end.
These beliefs are based on NOTHING. You can find the reality from experience (people with it and people who deal with people with it) and even quite a bit of science on the matter here:
ADD Forums

 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: Legend
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: Legend
Stunting growth? My brother is 6 feet tall and he's been on adderall since he as 12...you're just pulling shit out of your ass here.
Nah, I'm just repeating the findings of the study as reported in the article. You on the other hand are trying to base an argument on anecdotal evidence.
This?
More this:

Prof Pelham said there were "no beneficial effects" of medication and the impact was seemingly negative instead.

"The children had a substantial decrease in their rate of growth so they weren't growing as much as other kids both in terms of their height and in terms of their weight," he said.
 

spittledip

Diamond Member
Apr 23, 2005
4,480
1
81
Originally posted by: Skoorb
---

I love the armchair psychiatrists that inevitably pop up in these threads, oblivious to the fact that millions of people have been successfully treated with medication and many rely on them on a continual basis, confident that without the medication their life would go back to the worse state it used to be in. Some things are cureable, some aren't. Some are best treated with drugs, some aren't. Humankind has been treating broken legs for millenia. Drugs developed to treat a specific mental symptom is a pretty new science and will frequently stumble.
These beliefs are based on NOTHING. You can find the reality from experience (people with it and people who deal with people with it) and even quite a bit of science on the matter here:
I have worked with youth with ADD and other things for about 10 years and have degrees in the subject at hand. I also have worked in private practice as a therapist doing individual and family therapy. I have seen youth with ADD do much better with proper boundaries and attention among other things. Of course it is hard work , but it is worth it to deal with the real issues rather than medicate.

 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,075
12,873
126
Originally posted by: spittledip
Originally posted by: Skoorb
---

I love the armchair psychiatrists that inevitably pop up in these threads, oblivious to the fact that millions of people have been successfully treated with medication and many rely on them on a continual basis, confident that without the medication their life would go back to the worse state it used to be in. Some things are cureable, some aren't. Some are best treated with drugs, some aren't. Humankind has been treating broken legs for millenia. Drugs developed to treat a specific mental symptom is a pretty new science and will frequently stumble.
These beliefs are based on NOTHING. You can find the reality from experience (people with it and people who deal with people with it) and even quite a bit of science on the matter here:
I have worked with youth with ADD and other things for about 10 years and have degrees in the subject at hand. I also have worked in private practice as a therapist doing individual and family therapy. I have seen youth with ADD do much better with proper boundaries and attention among other things. Of course it is hard work , but it is worth it to deal with the real issues rather than medicate.
/ THREAD.
Shrink with experience laying it out means our discussions wont bring anything new.
Now I can focus on sexual dysfunction again. :)
 

SarcasticDwarf

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2001
9,574
0
76
Originally posted by: spittledip
I have seen youth with ADD do much better with proper boundaries and attention among other things. Of course it is hard work , but it is worth it to deal with the real issues rather than medicate.

You "have seen" youth do much better with boundaries, attention, etc. What percentage? How much better?
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
2
0
As a general rule I always talk in generalites. Because generalities are generally true.
Me, too, and I agree!

Of course it is hard work , but it is worth it to deal with the real issues rather than medicate.
This is the case for many issues and if medication can be avoided, great! ADD is certainly a grayer area in this regard than some other mental disorders which are easier to sell on the idea that the patient needs drugs.
 

MonkeyK

Golden Member
May 27, 2001
1,396
8
81
Originally posted by: spittledip
Originally posted by: Skoorb
---

I love the armchair psychiatrists that inevitably pop up in these threads, oblivious to the fact that millions of people have been successfully treated with medication and many rely on them on a continual basis, confident that without the medication their life would go back to the worse state it used to be in. Some things are cureable, some aren't. Some are best treated with drugs, some aren't. Humankind has been treating broken legs for millenia. Drugs developed to treat a specific mental symptom is a pretty new science and will frequently stumble.
These beliefs are based on NOTHING. You can find the reality from experience (people with it and people who deal with people with it) and even quite a bit of science on the matter here:
I have worked with youth with ADD and other things for about 10 years and have degrees in the subject at hand. I also have worked in private practice as a therapist doing individual and family therapy. I have seen youth with ADD do much better with proper boundaries and attention among other things. Of course it is hard work , but it is worth it to deal with the real issues rather than medicate.
while I do not know many other people diagnosed with ADD (and I am fully aware that there are probably a number of diagnoses that are inacurate), I would be surprised to learn that any of those that I do know would consider more attention and better boundary setting of benefit (now or in their childhood). We are discussing a problem that has its roots in a poor working memory.

That said, there are things that someone with ADD can learn to improve their life.


<edited to remove a reference to group therapy, I don't know why I read that into spittledip's post>
 

MonkeyK

Golden Member
May 27, 2001
1,396
8
81
Originally posted by: shortylickens
Originally posted by: spittledip
Originally posted by: Skoorb
---

I love the armchair psychiatrists that inevitably pop up in these threads, oblivious to the fact that millions of people have been successfully treated with medication and many rely on them on a continual basis, confident that without the medication their life would go back to the worse state it used to be in. Some things are cureable, some aren't. Some are best treated with drugs, some aren't. Humankind has been treating broken legs for millenia. Drugs developed to treat a specific mental symptom is a pretty new science and will frequently stumble.
These beliefs are based on NOTHING. You can find the reality from experience (people with it and people who deal with people with it) and even quite a bit of science on the matter here:
I have worked with youth with ADD and other things for about 10 years and have degrees in the subject at hand. I also have worked in private practice as a therapist doing individual and family therapy. I have seen youth with ADD do much better with proper boundaries and attention among other things. Of course it is hard work , but it is worth it to deal with the real issues rather than medicate.
/ THREAD.
Shrink with experience laying it out means our discussions wont bring anything new.
Now I can focus on sexual dysfunction again. :)
that depends on what he considers the subject at hand from the approach described, he could have a degree in theology.

I also need to take issue with a common attitude that I see regarding mental problem. Often people say that everyone has what they need to solve any problem, but that they need to really want to solve the problem and decide to solve it; thatif the problem persists that they must not have had firm enough resolution to solve the problem. My issue is that even if this were true, it may be a far larger step than one might think for someone to be able to make that decision and commitment (and sometimes drugs can be instrumental in the decion making process) Please have some compassion and realize that even though they may ultimately have to help themselves, until they do, their pain is real.
 

imported_Lothar

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2006
4,559
1
0
Originally posted by: shortylickens
I think boot camp is a much better cure for the ADD, but I also believe an all volunteer military is the most effective, so I cant advocate shoving them in against their will.
:roll:
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,075
12,873
126
Originally posted by: Lothar
Originally posted by: shortylickens
I think boot camp is a much better cure for the ADD, but I also believe an all volunteer military is the most effective, so I cant advocate shoving them in against their will.
:roll:
Given the time and depth involved in your response I can see you believe you have it as well.

 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
2
0
My issue is that even if this were true, it may be a far larger step than one might think for someone to be able to make that decision and commitment
True. A lot of fat people may say this and yet they are fat for the same reason, although I think losing weight is a lot easier than shutting out the voices in one's head or stopping one's eyes from interpreting shower water as blood.
 

MonkeyK

Golden Member
May 27, 2001
1,396
8
81
Originally posted by: Skoorb
My issue is that even if this were true, it may be a far larger step than one might think for someone to be able to make that decision and commitment
True. A lot of fat people may say this and yet they are fat for the same reason, although I think losing weight is a lot easier than shutting out the voices in one's head or stopping one's eyes from interpreting shower water as blood.
Fair enough. in any case, it there is a drug that can help someone come to the point of making that decision and committment, I'm all for it.
 

imported_Lothar

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2006
4,559
1
0
Originally posted by: shortylickens
Originally posted by: Lothar
Originally posted by: shortylickens
I think boot camp is a much better cure for the ADD, but I also believe an all volunteer military is the most effective, so I cant advocate shoving them in against their will.
:roll:
Given the time and depth involved in your response I can see you believe you have it as well.
This coming from a moron who thinks "boot camp is a much better cure for the ADD" :roll:
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Often it is the Educators that are recommending that parents use the Ridlin to keep all of the children more manageable. Educators want a bunch of Docile children who follow their every command so they can be better indoctrinated. You have to know a little bit about how this works. I had a teacher recommend this for my son. His only problem is the class was too slow for him and he was board. Not enough challenging course work to keep him busy. Teacher was not intelligent enough to realize this and give him more things to do.
 

SarcasticDwarf

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2001
9,574
0
76
Originally posted by: piasabird
Often it is the Educators that are recommending that parents use the Ridlin to keep all of the children more manageable. Educators want a bunch of Docile children who follow their every command so they can be better indoctrinated. You have to know a little bit about how this works. I had a teacher recommend this for my son. His only problem is the class was too slow for him and he was board. Not enough challenging course work to keep him busy. Teacher was not intelligent enough to realize this and give him more things to do.
So true. At the same time though, it *is* the job of an educator to identify a problem to parents. A teacher can not diagnose ADD/ADHD, only a licensed professional can.

It is often hit or miss with teachers. I had a lot of issues in elementary school (centered around adhd and being a regular obnoxious brat). Once I was diagnosed, only about half of the teachers made an effort to work with it. In grades where the teacher made an effort to work around my problems I was not very disruptive.
 

Fadardo

Member
Jun 10, 2007
99
0
0
I can honestly say that ritalin screwed up my life. When I started taking it at seven it turned me from an extroverted outgoing kid into an introverted super cautious and passive individual over the course of a year or 2.
Maybe if I had stopped taking it after a year or 2 i would have reverted back to my original extroverted state but I keep taking it for a total of 14 years until I was 21. The meds have perminently hampered my ability to socialize with others.

Besides stunting your grow the meds also made lots of long time users depressed. THe rates of depression for long time users is extremely high, I don't know how high but every single long time user of ritalin or other adhd meds I have met in real life was taking anti depressants during some point of their teens or adulthood.

I was taking anti depressants from 15 until 22. I kinda had a mental breakdown and fell apart, and dropped out of university because of my inability to connect and socialize with others, no matter how many social clubs I joined or people I attempted to befriend I simply wasn't able to form a bond.

This is introversion and disconnect from other an effect quite a few people taking ritalin experience/notice soon after taking the meds. Only thing though is those I have spoken to took it later in life (teens) as opposed to me at 7yrs old, and they didn't stay on it very long.




I wonder why there are practically zero studies showing how the long term ritalin users fair later in life after taking ritalin for a dozen years.
My guess is the medical establishment has caught a glimpse of what such studies might detail, and is trying to avoid them, instead focusing on the miracles the drug performs in the short term basis inside the classroom.
 

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