Batteriser: legit or scam?

trungma

Senior member
Jul 1, 2001
466
36
91
Does this sound legit?

Batteriser is a $2.50 gadget that extends disposable battery life by 800 percent

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928...s-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html

Too good to be true. If that is the case, why not incorporate the technology in the actual device. Cell phone makers can claim that their phone will last longer than the competition.

If you look at typical voltage vs. capacity battery graphs, the voltage drops really drops off at around 20% of the battery capacity remaining. If this thing actually works, you will only obtain the remaining 20%. Not increase the battery life by 800%.
 

Rakehellion

Lifer
Jan 15, 2013
12,181
35
91
8x boost is complete hogwash. Increase the voltage and you decrease the current.

Seems like you might get a 20% or so boost and only from certain types of devices.

But I guess we'll see once the investors line their pockets.
 
Mar 10, 2005
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Ken g6

Programming Moderator, Elite Member
Moderator
Dec 11, 1999
16,715
4,672
75
Could this cause overheating or 'sploding batteries?
I would imagine the answer is yes. They say they can get 1.5V out of as low as .6V. So to get triple the energy out of the battery you'll probably need triple the current. More current causes more heating - that's why high-voltage lines use high voltages, for low currents. I'd imagine tripling the heat output of the battery could be a problem.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
70,712
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lol 800%, yeah I doubt it. My guess is you get maybe 10%. Sounds like it's probably a small DC DC boost converter so it will try to get the voltage to the point where whatever is running off the battery is happy. Something like a small micro controller based device or LED may benefit slightly but I can't imagine actually getting any more wattage out of it.

A motorised device or heavy power microprocessor device probably wont benefit.
 

Charmonium

Lifer
May 15, 2015
10,571
3,551
136
Another article from Techive.

To explain how Batteriser works, Roohparvar uses a toothpaste tube analogy: If you buy a new tube of toothpaste and only squeeze from the very top, you’ll extract just a small portion of the paste in the tube. However, if you squeeze from the bottom and keep pushing upward, you’ll extract much more of the toothpaste—or in Batteriser’s case, energy—that you paid for.
It’s important to note that while “dead” batteries typically have 80 percent of their energy remaining inside, Batteriser doesn’t suck these cells completely dry. So how, exactly, does Batteriser increase battery life by a factor of eight? Let’s do the math.
Let’s say you buy a new battery. You use it for a month and its voltage drops to 1.4. It’s now ostensibly dead at 1.4 volts, but if you slip on a Batteriser, its output increases to 1.5 volts for another month. That’s already a 2x increase in battery life.
Batteroo Eventually the battery’s natural, unboosted output drops to 1.3 volts—but Batteriser keeps it at 1.5 volts for another month. Now you’ve realized a 3x increase in battery life. And so on, and so on. Roohparvar says Batteriser can continue to deliver a 1.5 volt charge in batteries that have discharged down to 0.6 volts. There are more than eight 0.1 volt steps between 0.6 and 1.5 volts, so, in grossly simplified terms, the Batteriser can extend operational battery life somewhere around a factor of eight.
And here’s an interesting tidbit in Batteroo’s patent: Voltage drops aren’t linear, and this plays to the consumer’s advantage:
“The time it takes for the battery voltage to drop by 0.1V is longer at lower voltages versus at higher voltages. That means that if a constant current was drawn from the battery, it would take the battery a lot longer to discharge from 1.2V to 1.1V than it would from 1.5V to 1.4V. This means that the extent to which the battery life is increased could be even higher.”
 

WilliamM2

Platinum Member
Jun 14, 2012
2,988
881
136
Even if it works, big deal, you will still be throwing away batteries. I buy Eneloop rechargeable 4 for $10. I have sets that are 6-7 years old, and still going strong.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
So....a boost converter?

I'm sure it could give an 800% increase, but it would be in a scenario that only a marketing department would dream up.
"Imagine a device that draws 1.5A for 50 milliseconds, and will consider the battery to be 'dead' if its output voltage drops by more than 40 millivolts. You there, Engineer, do your math things and get me a percentage on the battery life."


Similar things happen at work: Marketing wants some numbers or measurements. They're mostly meaningless to the end user, but they're numbers and the units sound fancy.
oooOOohh, kilohertz. kHz. That sounds technical.

At least we don't have any products (yet) that are labeled "HD" or "4K" just because they're popular, but utterly irrelevant, buzzword things.



Though I'd honestly like something like that for the paper towel dispensers at work.
The dispensing is timer-based, not distance-based. Gotta cut those manufacturing costs down to the bone, you know?
On a new battery, the motor activates for the set time and spits out 4 feet of paper towel.
As the battery approaches dead, the motor activates for the set time and it lazily puts out 1 foot of paper towel. A boost converter in there to suck every last snippet of power would take care of that.
 
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Mark R

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
8,513
16
81
So....a boost converter?

I'm sure it could give an 800% increase, but it would be in a scenario that only a marketing department would dream up.
Exactly right. Their argument hinges on the fact that battery appliances shut off when the battery voltage drops to 1.4 V.

By the time the battery terminal voltage drops to 1.4 V, you have only used about 10% of the energy in the battery. If you push this out to 0.6 V then you can use 90% of the energy.

I have no idea what appliances shut off at 1.4 V - any such device would not be able to run on NiMH batteries. As I recall from some experimentation, most of the things I tested put on the low battery light when battery voltage got to about 1.0 V, at which point about 80% of the battery energy has been used.

Yes, a boost regulator could get the last 10% from the battery - but at what cost. Boost regulators aren't very efficient at that sort of voltage, and the idle drain by putting the regulator directly on the battery will make it useless for anything that isn't a heavy battery drain which is chewing through batteries on a daily or several-times-a-day rate.
 

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
10,132
382
126
I can tell you this thing does indeed work, but only in the confines of the marketing dept.

Also the whole "someone broke in wielding a bunch of broccoli listening to Boccherini on their ipod" so that the marketing dept. can cash in on the insurance they are about to claim is brilliant. You know just in case they are unable to convince people to buy this thing en masse.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,949
574
126
It works only to the extent that the device has it's own circuitry to declare batteries unfit and cease to function under 1.5V. It just defeats the device's own voltage sense limit.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
From their site:
Most new batteries contain 1.5V of energy when first bought. The problem is that many devices stop functioning at around the 1.3V mark.
The misleading marketing is strong with this one.

1.5V of energy? Huh, I wonder what the little thing weighs? Probably a little under 5 millimeters.


Most devices stop functioning at 1.3V? I guess that explains why 1.2V NiMH cells don't work with anything. :hmm:
I'm surprised Dave at EEVBlog gave such a tepid response to that claim.
"Well, as an experienced electronics design engineer, I know that's....not really true."

I was expecting something more like "That is absolute bullshit!" :D given that NiMHs start at 1.2V.



If you've got a high-drain device, you should be using LSD NiMH anyway, unless you prefer to keep spending money on loads of alkalines. Those rechargeables also keep going reasonably strong up until they're exhausted, at which point the terminal voltage drops off quickly, so you're sucking out most of the usable energy in addition to saving money.
If you've got a low-drain device, the internal resistance of alkalines doesn't really matter much anyway, so the terminal voltage will remain high enough for quite a long time.

For years, they used alkalines at work in their digital cameras. I introduced them to Eneloops. Until then though, I'd use the "dead" cells in low-drain devices like like remote controls or clocks at home, where they'd give at least a year of additional service. No black magic there.


And from the looks of this thing, there's not any space in there for a high-current boost converter. What could they possibly squeeze into that formfactor? A SOT23 or maybe a SOT223 converter? And then they'd need a tiny inductor, too.
Or is it a charge pump with some ceramic caps?
So what's the maximum current it could handle? Dozens of milliamps, such as in a low-lower device like a keyboard or clock, which already do a good job of draining a battery?

(Edit: Ok, Dave also addresses that. :))
 
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TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,092
136
Exactly right. Their argument hinges on the fact that battery appliances shut off when the battery voltage drops to 1.4 V.

By the time the battery terminal voltage drops to 1.4 V, you have only used about 10% of the energy in the battery. If you push this out to 0.6 V then you can use 90% of the energy.

I have no idea what appliances shut off at 1.4 V - any such device would not be able to run on NiMH batteries. As I recall from some experimentation, most of the things I tested put on the low battery light when battery voltage got to about 1.0 V, at which point about 80% of the battery energy has been used.

Yes, a boost regulator could get the last 10% from the battery - but at what cost. Boost regulators aren't very efficient at that sort of voltage, and the idle drain by putting the regulator directly on the battery will make it useless for anything that isn't a heavy battery drain which is chewing through batteries on a daily or several-times-a-day rate.

Exactly this. It's fantastic.. if the battery using device is garbage. For most devices you won't see anything NEAR 80% improvement. Boring.
 

BUTCH1

Lifer
Jul 15, 2000
20,433
1,769
126
Just enough boost for you to forget about it and have the fucker start leaking in your toy..
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
Here we go, I found a voltage regulator that might do the trick: Linear's LTC3526.
This is how the chip compares to a AA battery.
Its switching frequency is 1MHz, so it wouldn't need a large inductor.
A suitable inductor would be roughly 2x the size of the chip.

It needs 0.68V to start up, but once running, it'll keep operating down to 0.5V.
Efficiency below 1mA is 40-90%, but above 1mA it stays ≥90%.
Typical operating current is 0.25mA.
Maximum current rating is 0.55A - not bad there. Linear makes pretty nice regulators.


Specs on keyboard operating/standby current are tough to find.
What I did get:
- NuVision and M-Edge keyboards: 2.5mA operating current, 0.3mA standby, and 0.040mA sleep.
- Generic Amazon keyboard: 5mA operating current, 2.5mA standby, 0.2mA sleep.

So if you've got a decent keyboard, that little voltage regulator will, by itself, use roughly as much power as your keyboard uses in standby, or potentially 6x as much power as the keyboard itself if the keyboard is sleeping. (The regulator would still be running, and at such a low power draw, it would be at around 70% efficiency.)


But there's a minor detail that I've left out: That nice chip + the inductor, assuming production-scale quantities, would be about $1.75. I don't know how low Linear will go on quantity discounts, but from what I've seen, they like to keep a good reign on their sale prices. Add in a few cents for the resistors and capacitors that are also needed, and a few cents for some kind of sturdy metal contact for the + terminal, and something for the tiny PCB, and something for fabricating the metal clip, and something for the labor needed to assemble it all, and you're well beyond a $2.50 sale price.
Or go with a larger and cheaper regulator chip if there's still room for it.
The little footprint on the diagram shown above is only the chip itself. Things like that normally require some additional space around them that's covered in copper on the PCB, in order to help draw heat away from the device.


We have some IP in some of the IC circuits that are in there, but the key is we’ve been able to miniaturize the boost circuit to a point that no one else has been able to achieve
Yes, because no one else cares, at least for this application.

1) Some people will keep buying alkalines because using rechargeables requires too much thinking. The placebo effect will be strong with these people.
1a) Some people will keep buying alkalines because rechargeables are "way too expensive" simply due to the initial purchase cost. Fine, keep wasting money.*

2) People will buy NiMH cells, which completely eliminate the need for this little booster.

3) If this is meant for use with low-drain devices, which inherently use very few batteries in the first place, then it doesn't make sense either. If your keyboard or remote or clock uses 2 AAs a year, you're probably looking at $0.50-$1.50/year in batteries. So. What.




* Low-drain devices are one place where NiMH might not make sense, simply because they use so few batteries in the first place. NiMH pays for itself with each recharge. If you're only charging once a year, versus once every 2 weeks or so, it might be awhile before you see payback for the batteries and the charger. If you go cheap on the charger, it might be harder on the batteries each time they're charged, reducing their lifespan. Cheap rechargeables aren't good either - less capacity, lousier discharge curves, lower output voltage, and shorter life.
 
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mikeford

Diamond Member
Jan 27, 2001
5,671
160
106
Its a boost converter, typical of many LED flashlights, so the only patent protection they might get is incorporated into a battery, and frankly that is a stupid way to do it.

Also as said almost nothing shuts off at 1.4v.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
70,712
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www.anyf.ca
I would hope that something like this is not patentable. It's pretty much just a boost converter IC chip on a small PCB with required components in a miniature form. Any circuit that implements a boost converter IC chip would then be in violation of the patent and have to completely redesign their product. A taser would be a good example of such product. Don't sue me bro! :p
 

EliteRetard

Diamond Member
Mar 6, 2006
6,490
1,022
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If this can actually boost voltage to 1.5v then it does have some use other than extending battery life. I have several electronics that require batteries in series for higher voltage, and these electronics flat out will not work with rechargeable 1.2v batteries. If these actually worked to hold 1.5v without significantly altering the battery life one way or the other I would buy several. Would save money in the long run.