• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

Battered Britain hovers on the edge of double-dip recession OFFICIAL: Double dip!!!

Page 6 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Fern

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Greece is using stimulus rather than austerity? When did this happen? I thought they had undergone several rounds of significant austerity measures, the last being forced on them by the EU as a condition for the bailout. Am I misinformed?
A bunch of 'stimulus' is what landed them in 'austerity'.

If the stimulus had worked they wouldn't have been in such in such debt.

Fern
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
73,635
25,683
136
Greece is using stimulus rather than austerity? When did this happen? I thought they had undergone several rounds of significant austerity measures, the last being forced on them by the EU as a condition for the bailout. Am I misinformed?
I think he's trying to say that Greece running up its debt/GDP ratio to huge amounts during prosperous times in what amounts to a foreign currency is the same thing as the fiscal stimulus in a depression that Keynesian economists advocate for.

I have no idea why he would try to make such a silly argument, but I don't really know what else his argument could be.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
73,635
25,683
136
A bunch of 'stimulus' is what landed them in 'austerity'.

If the stimulus had worked they wouldn't have been in such in such debt.

Fern
I'm quoting this for the epic failure of understanding located within.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
The liberties you take with the term "substantial" are obscene.

Fern
Don't forget that this is eskimospy we're talking about. He believes that tax cuts for the rich are the primary factor in our $1T+ deficit and it took pages and pages to convince him otherwise. His takes clinging to obviously false information to absurd levels.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
I'm quoting this for the epic failure of understanding located within.
Be sure to 'CC:' Nancy Pelosi. She's still of the opinion that unemployment and the like are "stimulus" and good for the economy/GDP.

She's full on with the 'Greek Plan' of economic recovery, as you guys seem to be.

Fern
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Greece is using stimulus rather than austerity? When did this happen? I thought they had undergone several rounds of significant austerity measures, the last being forced on them by the EU as a condition for the bailout. Am I misinformed?
They were stimulating themselves for years prior to the collapse. The collapse brought them back to reality where austerity is required. If they had kept their spending under control in the past, they wouldn't have to deal with such extreme measures now. Those like eskimospy who wrongly believe in ponzi-like expansionary economies think that the answer to a failing economy is always more spending, and when that fails, it's even more spending. It's an interesting form of insanity.
 

Bitek

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2001
9,747
3,893
136
Why are the miners starving? Are they unable to grow their own food? If they aren't able to take part in the economy then they need to take care of themselves.

Or are you going to argue that paying the unemployed to break windows is better than nothing?
It is for the guys selling hammers, food and windows and on down, let alone the miners.
 

Bitek

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2001
9,747
3,893
136
Maybe Mitt getting elected won't be so bad. He'll fuck up the economy so much more that America will finally wake up and realize that the overall GOP agenda is bad for middle class America (what's left of it) and good for the top 1% only.
I kinda think sometimes if the voters actually vote in all GOP (Senate, house, potus) the Dems should just sit back and let them pass the Ryan budget, and all the other shitty and ideas and just let the country fuck itself. Evidence and reason have had a hard time against deception, fear mongering and bumperstickers. Maybe pain is the only teacher left.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
18,482
5,627
136
I kinda think sometimes if the voters actually vote in all GOP (Senate, house, potus) the Dems should just sit back and let them pass the Ryan budget, and all the other shitty and ideas and just let the country fuck itself. Evidence and reason have had a hard time against deception, fear mongering and bumperstickers. Maybe pain is the only teacher left.
Don't you get it. With conservatives it's all about principle, morality, and ideology. It doesn't matter what really works.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,057
5,140
126
They were stimulating themselves for years prior to the collapse. The collapse brought them back to reality where austerity is required. If they had kept their spending under control in the past, they wouldn't have to deal with such extreme measures now. Those like eskimospy who wrongly believe in ponzi-like expansionary economies think that the answer to a failing economy is always more spending, and when that fails, it's even more spending. It's an interesting form of insanity.
Greece is finding out that two wrongs, excessive spending in time prosperity, and austerity in a downturn, don't make a right.
What Republicans did under Bush is spend excessively during prosperity, cut taxes while starting two wars, etc. Now they are advocating austerity in the middle of a downturn. So if anyone is going to turn the US into Greece, it's the Republican party.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
345
126
Don't you get it. With conservatives it's all about principle, morality, and ideology. It doesn't matter what really works.
Usually, I point out that 95% of what's said here about the left is wrong or lies and I can't remember the other 5%, but I don't recognize these conservatives you describe.

They misuse words like 'principle' or 'morality' at times, but only for propaganda, they are generally the enemy of those things, rationalizing plutocracy.

It's the left who follows principle and morality, having society serve the people instead of allowing a few to harm the people, concentrating wealth and power with the 0.01%.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
18,482
5,627
136
Usually, I point out that 95% of what's said here about the left is wrong or lies and I can't remember the other 5%, but I don't recognize these conservatives you describe.

They misuse words like 'principle' or 'morality' at times, but only for propaganda, they are generally the enemy of those things, rationalizing plutocracy.

It's the left who follows principle and morality, having society serve the people instead of allowing a few to harm the people, concentrating wealth and power with the 0.01%.
I should have put this emoticon ;) after the priciple and morality in that sentence.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
1
0
Interesting. I recall posting in earlier threads regarding the negative impact the royal wedding caused on the UK economy (studies showed something like a .3% GDP growth decrease) and speculated that it could become worse. I wonder if this double dip is due to it. I can't imagine how pro-republicans feel. It must be awful.
 
Last edited:

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
73,635
25,683
136
Don't forget that this is eskimospy we're talking about. He believes that tax cuts for the rich are the primary factor in our $1T+ deficit and it took pages and pages to convince him otherwise. His takes clinging to obviously false information to absurd levels.
lol, no. I find your barely concealed constant rage at me pretty amusing though.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
73,635
25,683
136
Be sure to 'CC:' Nancy Pelosi. She's still of the opinion that unemployment and the like are "stimulus" and good for the economy/GDP.

She's full on with the 'Greek Plan' of economic recovery, as you guys seem to be.

Fern
The Greeks were running huge structural deficits during prosperous economic times where their growth rate was one of the largest in all of Europe. If you cannot understand why doing that is not the same as counter-cyclical spending in a depressed economy afflicted by a liquidity trap, I don't know what to tell you.

The fact that someone who is obviously intelligent is having this sort of problem 4 years into an economic crisis is simply staggering to me. It unfortunately goes a long way into explaining why the state of our economic debate is so poor. If you want to argue that government spending should be contracting right now that's fine. I think the evidence clearly shows this isn't the case, but fine. To attempt to equate what Greece was doing then with what the US is trying to do now however is just a basic ignorance of even the subject under debate. That's really not acceptable.
 

nextJin

Golden Member
Apr 16, 2009
1,848
0
0
I lean Austrian because of the fallacies they point out but to be brutally honest the US has ever been strict with keynesian economics. For the most part the US has simply taken one part it and abandoned the other. You can't honestly discredit keynesian economics what your discrediting is the current method the Fed and the Government use. The whole point was to ease recessions which the Fed has not done, in fact there have been just as many as before with the only difference being most last much much longer.

I'd also like to add that you cannot use a bastardized version of keynesian economics, build up a century of problems then immediately try and use austrian economics to fix the problem. The two are radically different and the solutions to this current problem are bad either way.

Recently an austrian by the name of Robert Wenzel gave a speech at the NY Fed, here is his speech.

http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2012/04/my-speech-delivered-at-new-york-federal.html
 

Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,704
4,374
136
You can blame all the damaging economic policies Obummer cleared through Congress the past couple of years. I hope you Liberals are happy.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
29,480
14,005
136
I think this a most opportune time to employ the argument damn near worn-out by progressives:

"If he hadn't have done it things would be so much worse."

Not that I don't acknowledge that austerity measures won't boost GDP in the short-term, or at least I wouldn't expect them to. It's just the irony of the progressive argument that no matter how badly a Dem policy fails the response is - "it would have been worse without it!".

Why can't the other side use it too?

Fern
Person A: I accidentally shot a man with a gun and he died from his wound.
Person B: I accidentally stabbed a man with a knife and he died from his wound.
Person A: I find it hard to believe you accidentally stabbed a man with a knife.
Person B: If you can say you accidentally killed a man, why can't I use that argument, too?

The liberties you take with the term "substantial" are obscene.

Fern
The liberties you take with logic are obscene. The scenario above is not meant to be an analogy, it's meant to point out that you skipped a lot of information when attempting to suggest that your side can just use the same argument.

It's an all too common theme with conservative arguments around here. Take a valid liberal argument against one thing and try to shoehorn the same argument onto another issue and pretend the two issues are the same.

Lame. But that's all you conservatives have anymore. Lame attempts to justify proven failed policies.

I honestly don't know how you maintain a reputation for being someone worth reading around here when you shovel this shit, Fern. You shovel it just like all the other trolls. It fucking baffles me. Sure, you have some good posts, maybe even a lot of good posts. But posts like these are not uncommon at all.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
571
126
That's absurd. Do you believe that the top 10% of earners in the United States create 50% of all national production? (if you do, I have a bridge to sell you) They don't create 50% of all national production, but they take home nearly 50% of all income.
...and in turn pay more than 50% of all income taxes.

This is a really bizarre case of Stockholm Syndrome that the American right wing has, where the top earners in the US are obviously being rewarded significantly in excess of their contribution to our national production, but you think that having the system require some of that back from them is a horrible imposition, that they are 'paying for everything'. You pay for it, we all pay for it when we produce things. It's incredibly naive to believe otherwise.
The system does require some of that back from them. In taxes. Which they pay in droves.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY