Who thinks baseball closers are the most overrated position? Nothing special, except get three outs with nobody on base, up to 3 runs ahead, except some make much money as the starters.
baseball closer most overrated position?
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You don't know much about baseball do you?Originally posted by: coldcut
Who thinks baseball closers are the most overrated position? Nothing special, except get three outs with nobody on base, up to 3 runs ahead, except some make much money as the starters.
Originally posted by: pyonir
Originally posted by: Fausto1
Bah. John Smoltz is the man.
Not in the last two years.
EDIT: besides....EVERYONE knows the Braves suck!
Hmmm......pretty even actually.
Smoltz 2002: 55 saves with 85 k's and .206 BAA
Gagne 2002: 52 saves 114 k's :Q and .189 BAA
I guess Gagne would have a lot more saves if the Dodgers were in the lead more often eh?
- Mar 20, 2000
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if not for having two of the better closers in the majors (billy wagner and octavio dotel) and one of the better setup men (brad lidge) the astros would be well under .500. of course, if their hitting doesn't come back they'll be there soon anyway.
If you think about it, Smoltz and Gagne actually support coldcut's silly argument.
Gagne was a struggling starter before he was converted into a closer, got a lot stronger, developed some pitches, and now he's All-World.
Smoltz was probably an A- starting pitcher (even better in the playoffs, the Braves only money pitcher throughout the years) but he's also an A+ closer even though he's getting closer to the twilight of his career.
Roger Clemens now has 300 wins, Nolan Ryan had even less, but they'd both each probably have over 500 saves if they brought their stuff for just one inning every other night.
Gagne was a struggling starter before he was converted into a closer, got a lot stronger, developed some pitches, and now he's All-World.
Smoltz was probably an A- starting pitcher (even better in the playoffs, the Braves only money pitcher throughout the years) but he's also an A+ closer even though he's getting closer to the twilight of his career.
Roger Clemens now has 300 wins, Nolan Ryan had even less, but they'd both each probably have over 500 saves if they brought their stuff for just one inning every other night.
He would if idiot management hadn't shipped away Sheff for a couple warm bodies. I used to be a Dodgers fan, but in a cynical way, I'm glad that mistake is coming back to haunt them now.Originally posted by: Fausto1
I guess Gagne would have a lot more saves if the Dodgers were in the lead more often eh?
I don't think so. I don't think it's overrated at all. Being a closer is probably the most stressful position in baseball, imo.
DH and 1st Base are probably the weakest positions for a player to be designated. (Not that every 1st baseman and/or DH is a weak defensive player, just that those are the two spots reserved for the big, slow, injured players who can still drive in runs.)
DH and 1st Base are probably the weakest positions for a player to be designated. (Not that every 1st baseman and/or DH is a weak defensive player, just that those are the two spots reserved for the big, slow, injured players who can still drive in runs.)
i think its an overpaid position
but then again on my fantasy team i have mike williams and jorge julio and smoltz. im not complaining about smoltz one bit but those other two men are overpaid, masters of the blown save, although not on a grand scale like jose mesa.
but then again there is no one left out there to pick up and both of them have around 15-20 saves.
but then again on my fantasy team i have mike williams and jorge julio and smoltz. im not complaining about smoltz one bit but those other two men are overpaid, masters of the blown save, although not on a grand scale like jose mesa.
but then again there is no one left out there to pick up and both of them have around 15-20 saves.
You're totally discounting the pressure of having the game on the line and the ability to come in and mow down batters right away. Most starters take a few innings to find a groove whereas a closer has to be right on top of things as soon as he enters the game.
Originally posted by: pyonir
Originally posted by: Fausto1
Bah. John Smoltz is the man.
Not in the last two years.
EDIT: besides....EVERYONE knows the Braves suck!
You think the braves suck?? checkout the Brewers
Ausm
I'm not, which is why I called the OP a silly argument. But I am saying that Gagne and Smoltz probably support that argument more than disprove it (as was suggested).
While you're right that not every good pitcher has the mentality and fortitude to close ballgames, many reasonably successful closers have just one or two pitches and they simply challenge batters mano a mano. In that situation, batters are generally at a severe disadvantage because time isn't on their side. You don't think a fresh, younger Clemens couldn't mow down batters if he came in just for the 9th?
I know you don't think he couldn't, but that's my response to your points. 
MaxDepth
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- Jun 12, 2001
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Originally posted by: pyonir
Originally posted by: ausm
You think the braves suck?? checkout the Brewers
Ausm
Oh...i know. I have a friend that lives in Milwaukee and make sure he knows how much the Brewers suck...
EDIT: You think the Brewers suck!? Check out the Tigers!
Look at one of their catchers, Walbeck. His batting average is less than most of the pitchers in the national league - and he is making $400,000 this year!!!!!! wtf?
John Franco used to be one of the best closers in the NL. Now he's stuck with the Mets.
Sure, but a young fresh Maddux couldn't.Originally posted by: manly
I'm not, which is why I called the OP a silly argument. But I am saying that Gagne and Smoltz probably support that argument more than disprove it (as was suggested).
While you're right that not every good pitcher has the mentality and fortitude to close ballgames, many reasonably successful closers have just one or two pitches and they simply challenge batters mano a mano. In that situation, batters are generally at a severe disadvantage because time isn't on their side. You don't think a fresh, younger Clemens couldn't mow down batters if he came in just for the 9th?
I guess my point is that it's not really an over- or under-rated position....it's just a position that's unique like any other. At least we agree the argument is silly.
COLDCUT: get a fscking job or something and stop posting inane crap.
This seemed like as good a thread as any for me to bitch about Armando Benitez making it to this year's All-Star game. And I'm a Mets fan! (tho' I will deny it if asked... )
But yeah, the pressure is incredibly great for the closer position. A guy like Benitez who technically on paper is one of the better closers (hence the reason he made the All Star game
) is pretty much heavily disliked by his team's own fans because he can't come through in the important games.
)But yeah, the pressure is incredibly great for the closer position. A guy like Benitez who technically on paper is one of the better closers (hence the reason he made the All Star game
Theo Epstein, the Red Sox self-appointed genius, thinks closers are overrated as well...and if they win half of the games they have had blown saves in, they would be in first place.
Baseball has evolved to the point where you really need a closer, and that closer needs to be overpowering or have a trick pitch. Clemens and Ryan would have been great closers, but when a guy has stuff good enough to go through a batting order more than once, you almost waste him in a closer's role...
Smoltz has become a closer to save his arm. Gagne (probably all roided up btw) sucked as a starter since his fastball was his only good pitch at the time (and it was 4-5 mph slower, see roid comment ).
I don't think it is an overrated position at all, it is a necessity.
I think the whole "strategy is more important in the NL" argument is the most overrated in baseball....NL strategy, in a nutshell..
have your pitchers bunt if there are less than two outs and runners on base (maybe a few exceptions with really good hitting pitchers, like Prior, Jennings, Hampton)...and the double switch isn't brain surgery either..take the guy who made the last out out, put the new pitcher in his spot, and put the replacement position player in the pitcher's spot..
The only real decision is whether or not to let your pitcher hit late in a close game, and again, that isn't rocket science.
Baseball has evolved to the point where you really need a closer, and that closer needs to be overpowering or have a trick pitch. Clemens and Ryan would have been great closers, but when a guy has stuff good enough to go through a batting order more than once, you almost waste him in a closer's role...
Smoltz has become a closer to save his arm. Gagne (probably all roided up btw) sucked as a starter since his fastball was his only good pitch at the time (and it was 4-5 mph slower, see roid comment ).
I don't think it is an overrated position at all, it is a necessity.
I think the whole "strategy is more important in the NL" argument is the most overrated in baseball....NL strategy, in a nutshell..
have your pitchers bunt if there are less than two outs and runners on base (maybe a few exceptions with really good hitting pitchers, like Prior, Jennings, Hampton)...and the double switch isn't brain surgery either..take the guy who made the last out out, put the new pitcher in his spot, and put the replacement position player in the pitcher's spot..
The only real decision is whether or not to let your pitcher hit late in a close game, and again, that isn't rocket science.
The closing pitcher role is a bit of a controversy.
Are closers overpaid for what they do? Maybe.
Are they overrated? No way in hell.
Some of the most dominating pitchers of our era were/are closers. Mariano Rivera, 95mph cutter anyone? Eric Gagne. Troy Percieval. Trevor Hoffman. Rob Nen. Billy Wagner.
These guys have the toughest job in the game I think. Think about it. If you are a regular position player, you're gonna get 3 to 4 at-bats a game. So what if you strike out 2 out of 3 times, you still have a third at-bat to hit the game winning homerun. As a closer, there is no second, third or fourth chance. It's one inning, do or die, the game is on your shoulders, you have a bad inning and there is no coming back from it.
You also have to remember that these guys are ready to pitch every single game. As a pitcher, getting little rest whether you pitch 10 pitches or 100 pitches is tough. It takes a special mentality. One similar to a guy who's not afraid to steal second and then third base the next pitch in the bottom of the 9th with his team down by one.
Are closers overpaid for what they do? Maybe.
Are they overrated? No way in hell.
Some of the most dominating pitchers of our era were/are closers. Mariano Rivera, 95mph cutter anyone? Eric Gagne. Troy Percieval. Trevor Hoffman. Rob Nen. Billy Wagner.
These guys have the toughest job in the game I think. Think about it. If you are a regular position player, you're gonna get 3 to 4 at-bats a game. So what if you strike out 2 out of 3 times, you still have a third at-bat to hit the game winning homerun. As a closer, there is no second, third or fourth chance. It's one inning, do or die, the game is on your shoulders, you have a bad inning and there is no coming back from it.
You also have to remember that these guys are ready to pitch every single game. As a pitcher, getting little rest whether you pitch 10 pitches or 100 pitches is tough. It takes a special mentality. One similar to a guy who's not afraid to steal second and then third base the next pitch in the bottom of the 9th with his team down by one.
they should limit save opportunities to when a team is one or two runs ahead, none of this three run cushion crap.... Everyone says that closers have "nerves of steel"... well, throw them in where one run makes the difference in the game, and then see who falters....
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