Barry Larkin Voted Into Cooperstown

[Perknose]

Decent selection, imho. :thumbsup:

 

[Blackjack200]

When is Alvaro Espinoza going to get in?

 

[edro]

You know you're getting old when players you watched as a kid are getting into the HOF.

 

[hclarkjr]

i did not expect him to make it this year, good for him

 

[PimpJuice]

Decent selection, imho. :thumbsup:

Not a bad player, but I don't think he was HOF worthy. There are loads of players with better stats. He just happened to be the best offensive shortstop in an era that prioritized defense.

"Larkin spent his entire major league career with the Reds from 1986-2004, hitting .295 with 198 home runs, 960 RBIs, 2,340 hits and 379 stolen bases. He won three Gold Gloves and the 1990 World Series."

In 18 years, he scored 100 runs only twice, never drove in a 100. He was one of the top shortstops of his era though, but I just don't consider that era of shortstops to be very good outside of Ripken.

 

[rasczak]

Good for him. One of the more classy players.

 

[ElFenix]

bagwell, passed over.

anyone think they'll vote bagwell and biggio in together next year?

 

[AstroManLuca]

I don't follow baseball that closely anymore; is it normal for just one player to be inducted into the Hall of Fame in a given year? Has there ever been a year when no one was inducted? What do you think Jack Morris' chances are of getting in eventually? My fondest baseball memories are of the 1991 World Series but I know Morris only played with the Twins for that one year.

 

[SP33Demon]

bagwell, passed over.

anyone think they'll vote bagwell and biggio in together next year?

No way, Bags was blatantly on the juice. May as well vote in Ken Caminiti while they're at it.

Biggio, hell yes first ballot.

Larkin was a solid selection. Plus he helped Cincy win it all in 1990.

 

[Perknose]

This recent article makes a strong case for Alan Trammell as well.

As stated here:

The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract rated Trammell as the ninth best shortstop of all time, ahead of 14 Hall of Fame shortstops.

And for me, you can't mention SS Alan Trammell without mentioning his long-time infield partner, ROY and 5 time All Star 2B Lou Whitaker. They played together in the bigs for 18 years, and are arguably among the all time keystone combos in MLB history.

I have a TON more baseball respect for these two guys and their careers than I could ever have for some bloated steroid abuser and former headline grabber like Sammy Sosa or Mark McGuire.

 

[Insomniator]

Not a bad player, but I don't think he was HOF worthy. There are loads of players with better stats. He just happened to be the best offensive shortstop in an era that prioritized defense.



In 18 years, he scored 100 runs only twice, never drove in a 100. He was one of the top shortstops of his era though, but I just don't consider that era of shortstops to be very good outside of Ripken.

Why would one of the best of an era at position X not get in? If you consider Arod and tejada doing roids... there are fewer shortstops even by today's standards that are better.

 

[ElFenix]

no way, bags was blatantly on the juice.

may as well vote in ken caminiti while they're at it.

rip

 

[RPD]

You know you're getting old when players you watched as a kid are getting into the HOF.

Ya this... I remember having his rookie card :/

 

[Perknose]

I don't follow baseball that closely anymore; is it normal for just one player to be inducted into the Hall of Fame in a given year? Has there ever been a year when no one was inducted? What do you think Jack Morris' chances are of getting in eventually? My fondest baseball memories are of the 1991 World Series but I know Morris only played with the Twins for that one year.

In order:

Yes.

Yes.

Two words: Veterans committee.

 

[SP33Demon]

rip

Don't get me wrong, Bags has the numbers to get in... but I think his insanely huge muscular physique (similar to Sosa's) was pretty obvious he wasn't natural in any way. I would put him in the same category as Gary Sheffield (even though Shef admitted to using PEDs and Bags never did)... iffy to get in, in our lifetime but more likely than McGwire/Sosa.

 

[terry107]

bagwell, passed over.

anyone think they'll vote bagwell and biggio in together next year?

It would be an awesome story here, but I'm not sure it's going to happen. Of course, Biggio is a lock and Bagwell's vote percent increased (from 42% to 56%), so who knows.

 

[Perknose]

Why would one of the best of an era at position X not get in? If you consider Arod and tejada doing roids... there are fewer shortstops even by today's standards that are better.

Word. And not just "of his era" but of all time among shortstops.

Shortstop Comparison

(Note: This list includes only shortstops who played most of their careers in the 20th century, for which I have complete WAR data.)

Shortstop WAAS
Honus Wagner 86.8
Cal Ripken 46.8
Arky Vaughan 43.5
Robin Yount 34.6
Luke Appling 32.4
Alan Trammell 32.1
Barry Larkin 31.7
Pee Wee Reese 31.5
Joe Cronin 29.7
Lou Boudreau 28
Bobby Wallace 27.4
Ozzie Smith 26.2
Dave Bancroft 19.7
Travis Jackson 19
Phil Rizzuto 18.2
Joe Sewell 17.8
Joe Tinker 16.9
Luis Aparicio 14
Rabbit Maranville 9.5

See all those SS's ranked below Larkin? They're all HOF'ers.

Read the article to understand what WAAS is.

 

[Perknose]

It would be an awesome story here, but I'm not sure it's going to happen. Of course, Biggio is a lock and Bagwell's vote percent increased (from 42% to 56%), so who knows.

Yeah, Biggio is a lock. I'm really on the fence about Bags, because although it was never proven, I strongly suspect he juiced like it was 1999.

 

[HydroSqueegee]

YAY! bout time!

 

[Perknose]

Not a bad player, but I don't think he was HOF worthy. There are loads of players with better stats. He just happened to be the best offensive shortstop in an era that prioritized defense.

In 18 years, he scored 100 runs only twice, never drove in a 100. He was one of the top shortstops of his era though, but I just don't consider that era of shortstops to be very good outside of Ripken.

An alternate view, from three Atlanta Braves who faced Larkin regularly during his career, Bobby Cox, John Smoltz and Tom Glavine:

"To me, Barry Larkin was a dream player,’” Cox said in a statement released by the Reds. “He was an outstanding leader who had great physical skills. When you look at his all-around talent and ability in the field, at the plate and on the bases, he might very well have been one of the top two or three shortstops of all-time."

Cox added, “If there had been a draft each year for clubs to build their team from scratch, Barry would have been the first or second pick each year over the course of his career."

John Smoltz, who played with the Braves against Larkin in 1988-2004, called him one of the most complete players he competed against. Glavine said Larkin was a pioneer at the position.

“He really changed the shortstop position in our generation because he was an all-around player,” Glavine said. “He was really a true five-tool player, with everything he could do to beat you.”

Pretty high praise. :thumbsup:

 

[PimpJuice]

Why would one of the best of an era at position X not get in? If you consider Arod and tejada doing roids... there are fewer shortstops even by today's standards that are better.

Because I feel that the whole era was subpar. He was above-average in my opinion, not great. That's just what I think. There was Ripken, then everyone else.

 

[PimpJuice]

Good points made Perk.....maybe I'm just wrong about him.

 

[NeoV]

Bagwell was clearly on roids or HGH - I loved him as a player - but he's not getting in any time soon.

Biggio should be a lock

Larkin? I'm not sure how he gets in before Trammell - obviously a heck of a player though. I do think Jack Morris belongs in there too - and Lee Smith.

 

[SP33Demon]

Word. And not just "of his era" but of all time among shortstops.

Shortstop Comparison

(Note: This list includes only shortstops who played most of their careers in the 20th century, for which I have complete WAR data.)

See all those SS's ranked below Larkin? They're all HOF'ers.

Read the article to understand what WAAS is.

Judging by this list, I'd say Alan Trammell definitely belongs. However, the main issue with him is that he played for 19 or 20 years and had about 8 very good to great years. Not helping things was the fact that he had a pretty awful last 6 years (aside from 4.4 WAR in 93), only playing 458/972 games = 47% of the games from 1991-1996. Had he retired in 1990 his lifetime average would be more indicative of his prime (.300+) and give voters less heartache about his final 6 years of mediocrity and injury.

I'd still put Larkin ahead of Trammell because in his prime he was way faster and had better OPS with the bat. Both were above average defensively and exceptional at batting average in their primes.

 

[Perknose]

I'd still put Larkin ahead of Trammell because in his prime he was way faster and had better OPS with the bat. Both were above average defensively and exceptional at batting average in their primes.

Yup. Not only faster, but a somehwat better hitter and fielder, too, not that Trammell was a slouch in either department.

The special thing that stands out for me is Alan Trammell and Lou Whitaker manning the keystone combo together for one team, Detroit, for 18 years, and at such a relatively high level, too.

If those two had been Yankees, just imagine the media impact they would have down unto this day.

However, Barry Larkin had that IT factor of all around, truly elite ability in a way that Alan Trammell, as damn good as he was for so long, just can't quite match. And I really need to emphasize here how much respect I do have for Alan Trammell, who also belongs in the hall, imho.

But just look at the slurpy love raves thrown Barry's way by competitors Bobby Cox, Smoltz and Glavine I posted in #20 above. Kind of says it all, to me.