Barr opens an investigation into the FBI Trump Russia investigation without the results of the TR investigation even being publiclally known...

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Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
54,878
8,375
126
What the Senate will or will not do doesn't alleviate the House's responsibility to carry out its task. If the President meets the requirements for impeachment as many in the House has stated as a fact they should impeach. It is their duty regardless of the Senate. Then it is the Senate's responsibility to convict or not.

As Hyman G. Rickover said:

“Responsibility is a unique concept... You may share it with others, but your portion is not diminished. You may delegate it, but it is still with you... If responsibility is rightfully yours, no evasion, or ignorance or passing the blame can shift the burden to someone else. Unless you can point your finger at the man who is responsible when something goes wrong, then you have never had anyone really responsible.”
Somewhere in all this it seems to me that the acts of alleged obstruction did occur. Barr admitted to such when he said Trump was frustrated & angry that the Russia thing would undermine his presidency so he acted to obstruct it. Simple. And it's just plain wrong in a serious way. The American people need to understand the character, breadth & depth of Russian efforts so as not to fall for them again. We also need to lock up high flying miscreants like Manafort, Gates, Flynn & maybe Roger Stone as well. None of that would be as it is if Trump had his way.
 

Maxima1

Platinum Member
Jan 15, 2013
2,553
422
126
Somewhere in all this it seems to me that the acts of alleged obstruction did occur. Barr admitted to such when he said Trump was frustrated & angry that the Russia thing would undermine his presidency so he acted to obstruct it. Simple. And it's just plain wrong in a serious way. The American people need to understand the character, breadth & depth of Russian efforts so as not to fall for them again. We also need to lock up high flying miscreants like Manafort, Gates, Flynn & maybe Roger Stone as well. None of that would be as it is if Trump had his way.
You forgot Rosenstein for conspiracy to obstruct justice.
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
26,558
541
126
https://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/the-golem-strikes-back/
The Golem Strikes Back



"Not long ago, few Americans of the thinking persuasion might have imagined that such a well-engineered republic, with its exquisite checks and balances, sturdy institutions, and time-tested traditions would end up as so much smoldering goop in a national dumpster fire, but such is the sad state-of-the-union moving into the fateful summer of 2019. The castle of the permanent bureaucracy is about to be torched by an uprising of deplorable peasants led by a Golden Golem made furious by relentless litigation. It’s Game of Thrones meets the Thermidorian Reaction with a Weimar-flavored cherry on top — really one for the ages!

There’s perhaps a lot to dislike about Donald J. Trump, US President No. 45. Despite all the grooming and tailoring, there’s little savoir faire there. He tweets not like a mellifluous songbird, but in snorts like a rooting aardvark. His every predilection is an affront to the refined Washington establishment: his dark business history, his beloved ormolu trappings, his Mickey-D cheeseburgers, the mystifying hair-doo.

Even so, the bad faith of his antagonists exceeds even Mr. Trump’s defects and vices. The plot they concocted to get rid of him failed. And, yes, it was a plot, even a coup. And they fucked it up magnificently, leaving a paper trail as wide as Interstate-95. Now all that paper is about to fall over the District of Columbia like radioactive ash, turning many current and former denizens of rogue agencies into the walking dead as they embark on the dismal journey between the grand juries and the federal prisons.

Hence, the desperate rage of the impeachment faction, in direct proportion to their secret shameful knowledge that the entire RussiaGate melodrama was, in fact, a seditious subterfuge between the Hillary Clinton campaign and a great many key figures in government up-to-and-including former president Barack Obama, who could not have failed to be clued-in on all the action. Even before the declassification order, the true narrative of events has been plainly understood: that the US Intel “community” trafficked in fictitious malarkey supplied by Mrs. Clinton to illegally “meddle” in the 2016 election.

Most of the facts are already documented. Only a few details remain to be confirmed: for instance, whether international man-of-mystery and entrapment artist Josef Mifsud was in the employ of the CIA, and/or Britain’s MI6, and/or Mrs. Clinton’s Fusion GPS contractor (or Christopher Steele’s Orbis Business Intelligence company, a subcontractor to both Fusion GPS and the FBI). Questions will now be asked — though not by The New York Times.

The evidence already public indicates that Robert Mueller must have known as early as the date of his appointment (and likely before) that the predicating evidence for his inquiry was false. After all, his soon-to-be lead prosecutor, Andrew Weissmann, was informed of that in no uncertain terms by his DOJ colleague, Deputy Attorney General Bruce Ohr, in 2016. Justice may seek to know why Mr. Mueller did not inform the target of his inquiry that this was so. The answer to that may be that Mr. Mueller’s true mission was to disable Mr. Trump as long as possible while setting an obstruction of justice trap — which also failed tactically.

Notice that Mr. Mueller declined to testify before the House Judiciary Committee last week. Chairman Jerrold Nadler (D-NY) was a fool to invite him. Did he not know that minority members of his committee get to ask questions too?

In an interesting turn of the screw last week, polling showed that a majority of those asked were in favor of investigations into the origin of the RussiaGate story. The FBI, being an agency under the direct supervision of the Attorney General, will be hosed out for sure. The CIA, on the other hand, has a sordid history of acting as a sovereign state within the state — hence the derivation of the Deep State. They are renowned for protecting their own. Remember, the Senate Minority Leader, Mr. Schumer, snidely told the incoming President Trump at the get-go that the Intel community “has six ways from Sunday at getting back at you.” I guess we’ll finally get to see about that because the CIA’s former director, the wicked Mr. Brennan, is grand jury bound. I suspect he will not be protected by his former colleagues. His downfall may presage a more thorough cleanup, and perhaps a major reorganization, of this monstrous agency.

The indictment of Julian Assange adds a big wrinkle to these upcoming proceedings. Apart for what it means to First Amendment protection for a free press (no small matter), Mr. Assange is the one person who actually knows who handed over the “hacked” DNC emails to Wikileaks. Perhaps getting the answer to that question is the real reason that the DOJ is throwing the book at him. The trial of Mr. Assange is sure to be a humdinger.

I’m convinced, personally, that all this melodrama will play out against the background of a cratering global economy, tanking financial markets, and epic disruption of the established international order. Consider laying in some supplies."


Crazy times we're living in. Some peeps could be in trouble. It's gonna be hilarious watching those who denied it was happening, crying like little bitches, once it all comes out. I look forward to the truth and now that the Russia investigation has been declassified we have lots of things that we shall learn.
 
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hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
10,357
1,220
126
https://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/the-golem-strikes-back/
The Golem Strikes Back



Not long ago, few Americans of the thinking persuasion might have imagined that such a well-engineered republic, with its exquisite checks and balances, sturdy institutions, and time-tested traditions would end up as so much smoldering goop in a national dumpster fire, but such is the sad state-of-the-union moving into the fateful summer of 2019. The castle of the permanent bureaucracy is about to be torched by an uprising of deplorable peasants led by a Golden Golem made furious by relentless litigation. It’s Game of Thrones meets the Thermidorian Reaction with a Weimar-flavored cherry on top — really one for the ages!

There’s perhaps a lot to dislike about Donald J. Trump, US President No. 45. Despite all the grooming and tailoring, there’s little savoir faire there. He tweets not like a mellifluous songbird, but in snorts like a rooting aardvark. His every predilection is an affront to the refined Washington establishment: his dark business history, his beloved ormolu trappings, his Mickey-D cheeseburgers, the mystifying hair-doo.

Even so, the bad faith of his antagonists exceeds even Mr. Trump’s defects and vices. The plot they concocted to get rid of him failed. And, yes, it was a plot, even a coup. And they fucked it up magnificently, leaving a paper trail as wide as Interstate-95. Now all that paper is about to fall over the District of Columbia like radioactive ash, turning many current and former denizens of rogue agencies into the walking dead as they embark on the dismal journey between the grand juries and the federal prisons.

Hence, the desperate rage of the impeachment faction, in direct proportion to their secret shameful knowledge that the entire RussiaGate melodrama was, in fact, a seditious subterfuge between the Hillary Clinton campaign and a great many key figures in government up-to-and-including former president Barack Obama, who could not have failed to be clued-in on all the action. Even before the declassification order, the true narrative of events has been plainly understood: that the US Intel “community” trafficked in fictitious malarkey supplied by Mrs. Clinton to illegally “meddle” in the 2016 election.

Most of the facts are already documented. Only a few details remain to be confirmed: for instance, whether international man-of-mystery and entrapment artist Josef Mifsud was in the employ of the CIA, and/or Britain’s MI6, and/or Mrs. Clinton’s Fusion GPS contractor (or Christopher Steele’s Orbis Business Intelligence company, a subcontractor to both Fusion GPS and the FBI). Questions will now be asked — though not by The New York Times.

The evidence already public indicates that Robert Mueller must have known as early as the date of his appointment (and likely before) that the predicating evidence for his inquiry was false. After all, his soon-to-be lead prosecutor, Andrew Weissmann, was informed of that in no uncertain terms by his DOJ colleague, Deputy Attorney General Bruce Ohr, in 2016. Justice may seek to know why Mr. Mueller did not inform the target of his inquiry that this was so. The answer to that may be that Mr. Mueller’s true mission was to disable Mr. Trump as long as possible while setting an obstruction of justice trap — which also failed tactically.

Notice that Mr. Mueller declined to testify before the House Judiciary Committee last week. Chairman Jerrold Nadler (D-NY) was a fool to invite him. Did he not know that minority members of his committee get to ask questions too?

In an interesting turn of the screw last week, polling showed that a majority of those asked were in favor of investigations into the origin of the RussiaGate story. The FBI, being an agency under the direct supervision of the Attorney General, will be hosed out for sure. The CIA, on the other hand, has a sordid history of acting as a sovereign state within the state — hence the derivation of the Deep State. They are renowned for protecting their own. Remember, the Senate Minority Leader, Mr. Schumer, snidely told the incoming President Trump at the get-go that the Intel community “has six ways from Sunday at getting back at you.” I guess we’ll finally get to see about that because the CIA’s former director, the wicked Mr. Brennan, is grand jury bound. I suspect he will not be protected by his former colleagues. His downfall may presage a more thorough cleanup, and perhaps a major reorganization, of this monstrous agency.

The indictment of Julian Assange adds a big wrinkle to these upcoming proceedings. Apart for what it means to First Amendment protection for a free press (no small matter), Mr. Assange is the one person who actually knows who handed over the “hacked” DNC emails to Wikileaks. Perhaps getting the answer to that question is the real reason that the DOJ is throwing the book at him. The trial of Mr. Assange is sure to be a humdinger.

I’m convinced, personally, that all this melodrama will play out against the background of a cratering global economy, tanking financial markets, and epic disruption of the established international order. Consider laying in some supplies.


Crazy times we're living in. Some peeps could be in trouble
No /s?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
63,798
10,996
126
https://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/the-golem-strikes-back/
The Golem Strikes Back

Not long ago, few Americans of the thinking persuasion might have imagined that such a well-engineered republic, with its exquisite checks and balances, sturdy institutions, and time-tested traditions would end up as so much smoldering goop in a national dumpster fire, but such is the sad state-of-the-union moving into the fateful summer of 2019. The castle of the permanent bureaucracy is about to be torched by an uprising of deplorable peasants led by a Golden Golem made furious by relentless litigation. It’s Game of Thrones meets the Thermidorian Reaction with a Weimar-flavored cherry on top — really one for the ages!

There’s perhaps a lot to dislike about Donald J. Trump, US President No. 45. Despite all the grooming and tailoring, there’s little savoir faire there. He tweets not like a mellifluous songbird, but in snorts like a rooting aardvark. His every predilection is an affront to the refined Washington establishment: his dark business history, his beloved ormolu trappings, his Mickey-D cheeseburgers, the mystifying hair-doo.

Even so, the bad faith of his antagonists exceeds even Mr. Trump’s defects and vices. The plot they concocted to get rid of him failed. And, yes, it was a plot, even a coup. And they fucked it up magnificently, leaving a paper trail as wide as Interstate-95. Now all that paper is about to fall over the District of Columbia like radioactive ash, turning many current and former denizens of rogue agencies into the walking dead as they embark on the dismal journey between the grand juries and the federal prisons.

Hence, the desperate rage of the impeachment faction, in direct proportion to their secret shameful knowledge that the entire RussiaGate melodrama was, in fact, a seditious subterfuge between the Hillary Clinton campaign and a great many key figures in government up-to-and-including former president Barack Obama, who could not have failed to be clued-in on all the action. Even before the declassification order, the true narrative of events has been plainly understood: that the US Intel “community” trafficked in fictitious malarkey supplied by Mrs. Clinton to illegally “meddle” in the 2016 election.

Most of the facts are already documented. Only a few details remain to be confirmed: for instance, whether international man-of-mystery and entrapment artist Josef Mifsud was in the employ of the CIA, and/or Britain’s MI6, and/or Mrs. Clinton’s Fusion GPS contractor (or Christopher Steele’s Orbis Business Intelligence company, a subcontractor to both Fusion GPS and the FBI). Questions will now be asked — though not by The New York Times.

The evidence already public indicates that Robert Mueller must have known as early as the date of his appointment (and likely before) that the predicating evidence for his inquiry was false. After all, his soon-to-be lead prosecutor, Andrew Weissmann, was informed of that in no uncertain terms by his DOJ colleague, Deputy Attorney General Bruce Ohr, in 2016. Justice may seek to know why Mr. Mueller did not inform the target of his inquiry that this was so. The answer to that may be that Mr. Mueller’s true mission was to disable Mr. Trump as long as possible while setting an obstruction of justice trap — which also failed tactically.

Notice that Mr. Mueller declined to testify before the House Judiciary Committee last week. Chairman Jerrold Nadler (D-NY) was a fool to invite him. Did he not know that minority members of his committee get to ask questions too?

In an interesting turn of the screw last week, polling showed that a majority of those asked were in favor of investigations into the origin of the RussiaGate story. The FBI, being an agency under the direct supervision of the Attorney General, will be hosed out for sure. The CIA, on the other hand, has a sordid history of acting as a sovereign state within the state — hence the derivation of the Deep State. They are renowned for protecting their own. Remember, the Senate Minority Leader, Mr. Schumer, snidely told the incoming President Trump at the get-go that the Intel community “has six ways from Sunday at getting back at you.” I guess we’ll finally get to see about that because the CIA’s former director, the wicked Mr. Brennan, is grand jury bound. I suspect he will not be protected by his former colleagues. His downfall may presage a more thorough cleanup, and perhaps a major reorganization, of this monstrous agency.

The indictment of Julian Assange adds a big wrinkle to these upcoming proceedings. Apart for what it means to First Amendment protection for a free press (no small matter), Mr. Assange is the one person who actually knows who handed over the “hacked” DNC emails to Wikileaks. Perhaps getting the answer to that question is the real reason that the DOJ is throwing the book at him. The trial of Mr. Assange is sure to be a humdinger.

I’m convinced, personally, that all this melodrama will play out against the background of a cratering global economy, tanking financial markets, and epic disruption of the established international order. Consider laying in some supplies.


Crazy times we're living in. Some peeps could be in trouble
LOL thank you for this. What an awesome mix of inadequate intellectual poseurdom with QAnon insanity. I feel really sorry for anyone stupid or mentally ill enough to believe this.

Then again aren’t you the guy who claims to have witnessed a conspiracy outside the DMV to sneakily register illegal immigrants to vote? You’re probably nutty enough to buy it.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
54,878
8,375
126
Trumpsters are often astonishingly naive. The US & Russian intelligence agencies have been adversaries for a very long time. Putin's 2014 aggression in Ukraine & subsequent US sanctions moved it up a notch for everybody, obviously. That conflict is still going on. Our own agencies try to serve America's interest in a variety of ways, one of which is trying to thwart Russian efforts to compromise people & our whole form of govt.

So when Michael Flynn is seated at Putin's right hand for a state dinner, they notice. When he joins the Trump campaign & is declared the future NSA It's like klaxons going off.

They're hip to Manafort as well, being part of the inner circle of Putin's former guy in Ukraine & associate of a Russian oligarch. When he's named Campaign chairman, they get agitated, rightfully so.

They've had their eye on Carter Page from long before he joined the Trump team.

They have TrumpCo negotiating a real estate deal in Moscow & lying about it.

They have the Trump tower meeting. They have Trump asking for their help on national TV. They have the Russians hacking the DNC. They have Papadopoulos telling an Australian diplomat that the Russians have dirt on Clinton. They have a whole lot of information we don't know about.

They would have been incompetent had they not investigated. That's beyond obvious.
 
Nov 25, 2013
29,291
10,022
136
https://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/the-golem-strikes-back/
The Golem Strikes Back



"Not long ago, few Americans of the thinking persuasion might have imagined that such a well-engineered republic, with its exquisite checks and balances, sturdy institutions, and time-tested traditions would end up as so much smoldering goop in a national dumpster fire, but such is the sad state-of-the-union moving into the fateful summer of 2019. The castle of the permanent bureaucracy is about to be torched by an uprising of deplorable peasants led by a Golden Golem made furious by relentless litigation. It’s Game of Thrones meets the Thermidorian Reaction with a Weimar-flavored cherry on top — really one for the ages!

There’s perhaps a lot to dislike about Donald J. Trump, US President No. 45. Despite all the grooming and tailoring, there’s little savoir faire there. He tweets not like a mellifluous songbird, but in snorts like a rooting aardvark. His every predilection is an affront to the refined Washington establishment: his dark business history, his beloved ormolu trappings, his Mickey-D cheeseburgers, the mystifying hair-doo.

Even so, the bad faith of his antagonists exceeds even Mr. Trump’s defects and vices. The plot they concocted to get rid of him failed. And, yes, it was a plot, even a coup. And they fucked it up magnificently, leaving a paper trail as wide as Interstate-95. Now all that paper is about to fall over the District of Columbia like radioactive ash, turning many current and former denizens of rogue agencies into the walking dead as they embark on the dismal journey between the grand juries and the federal prisons.

Hence, the desperate rage of the impeachment faction, in direct proportion to their secret shameful knowledge that the entire RussiaGate melodrama was, in fact, a seditious subterfuge between the Hillary Clinton campaign and a great many key figures in government up-to-and-including former president Barack Obama, who could not have failed to be clued-in on all the action. Even before the declassification order, the true narrative of events has been plainly understood: that the US Intel “community” trafficked in fictitious malarkey supplied by Mrs. Clinton to illegally “meddle” in the 2016 election.

Most of the facts are already documented. Only a few details remain to be confirmed: for instance, whether international man-of-mystery and entrapment artist Josef Mifsud was in the employ of the CIA, and/or Britain’s MI6, and/or Mrs. Clinton’s Fusion GPS contractor (or Christopher Steele’s Orbis Business Intelligence company, a subcontractor to both Fusion GPS and the FBI). Questions will now be asked — though not by The New York Times.

The evidence already public indicates that Robert Mueller must have known as early as the date of his appointment (and likely before) that the predicating evidence for his inquiry was false. After all, his soon-to-be lead prosecutor, Andrew Weissmann, was informed of that in no uncertain terms by his DOJ colleague, Deputy Attorney General Bruce Ohr, in 2016. Justice may seek to know why Mr. Mueller did not inform the target of his inquiry that this was so. The answer to that may be that Mr. Mueller’s true mission was to disable Mr. Trump as long as possible while setting an obstruction of justice trap — which also failed tactically.

Notice that Mr. Mueller declined to testify before the House Judiciary Committee last week. Chairman Jerrold Nadler (D-NY) was a fool to invite him. Did he not know that minority members of his committee get to ask questions too?

In an interesting turn of the screw last week, polling showed that a majority of those asked were in favor of investigations into the origin of the RussiaGate story. The FBI, being an agency under the direct supervision of the Attorney General, will be hosed out for sure. The CIA, on the other hand, has a sordid history of acting as a sovereign state within the state — hence the derivation of the Deep State. They are renowned for protecting their own. Remember, the Senate Minority Leader, Mr. Schumer, snidely told the incoming President Trump at the get-go that the Intel community “has six ways from Sunday at getting back at you.” I guess we’ll finally get to see about that because the CIA’s former director, the wicked Mr. Brennan, is grand jury bound. I suspect he will not be protected by his former colleagues. His downfall may presage a more thorough cleanup, and perhaps a major reorganization, of this monstrous agency.

The indictment of Julian Assange adds a big wrinkle to these upcoming proceedings. Apart for what it means to First Amendment protection for a free press (no small matter), Mr. Assange is the one person who actually knows who handed over the “hacked” DNC emails to Wikileaks. Perhaps getting the answer to that question is the real reason that the DOJ is throwing the book at him. The trial of Mr. Assange is sure to be a humdinger.

I’m convinced, personally, that all this melodrama will play out against the background of a cratering global economy, tanking financial markets, and epic disruption of the established international order. Consider laying in some supplies."


Crazy times we're living in. Some peeps could be in trouble. It's gonna be hilarious watching those who denied it was happening, crying like little bitches, once it all comes out. I look forward to the truth and now that the Russia investigation has been declassified we have lots of things that we shall learn.
ROFLMAO

So fucking gullible.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
54,878
8,375
126
You forgot Rosenstein for conspiracy to obstruct justice.
He and Barr attempt to usurp judgements that rightfully belong to Congress. It's over their heads. Barr needs to quit acting as Trump's attorney, quit stalling & let Congress do their job.
 

PJFrylar

Senior member
Apr 17, 2016
879
514
106
https://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/the-golem-strikes-back/
The Golem Strikes Back



"Not long ago, few Americans of the thinking persuasion might have imagined that such a well-engineered republic, with its exquisite checks and balances, sturdy institutions, and time-tested traditions would end up as so much smoldering goop in a national dumpster fire, but such is the sad state-of-the-union moving into the fateful summer of 2019. The castle of the permanent bureaucracy is about to be torched by an uprising of deplorable peasants led by a Golden Golem made furious by relentless litigation. It’s Game of Thrones meets the Thermidorian Reaction with a Weimar-flavored cherry on top — really one for the ages!

There’s perhaps a lot to dislike about Donald J. Trump, US President No. 45. Despite all the grooming and tailoring, there’s little savoir faire there. He tweets not like a mellifluous songbird, but in snorts like a rooting aardvark. His every predilection is an affront to the refined Washington establishment: his dark business history, his beloved ormolu trappings, his Mickey-D cheeseburgers, the mystifying hair-doo.

Even so, the bad faith of his antagonists exceeds even Mr. Trump’s defects and vices. The plot they concocted to get rid of him failed. And, yes, it was a plot, even a coup. And they fucked it up magnificently, leaving a paper trail as wide as Interstate-95. Now all that paper is about to fall over the District of Columbia like radioactive ash, turning many current and former denizens of rogue agencies into the walking dead as they embark on the dismal journey between the grand juries and the federal prisons.

Hence, the desperate rage of the impeachment faction, in direct proportion to their secret shameful knowledge that the entire RussiaGate melodrama was, in fact, a seditious subterfuge between the Hillary Clinton campaign and a great many key figures in government up-to-and-including former president Barack Obama, who could not have failed to be clued-in on all the action. Even before the declassification order, the true narrative of events has been plainly understood: that the US Intel “community” trafficked in fictitious malarkey supplied by Mrs. Clinton to illegally “meddle” in the 2016 election.

Most of the facts are already documented. Only a few details remain to be confirmed: for instance, whether international man-of-mystery and entrapment artist Josef Mifsud was in the employ of the CIA, and/or Britain’s MI6, and/or Mrs. Clinton’s Fusion GPS contractor (or Christopher Steele’s Orbis Business Intelligence company, a subcontractor to both Fusion GPS and the FBI). Questions will now be asked — though not by The New York Times.

The evidence already public indicates that Robert Mueller must have known as early as the date of his appointment (and likely before) that the predicating evidence for his inquiry was false. After all, his soon-to-be lead prosecutor, Andrew Weissmann, was informed of that in no uncertain terms by his DOJ colleague, Deputy Attorney General Bruce Ohr, in 2016. Justice may seek to know why Mr. Mueller did not inform the target of his inquiry that this was so. The answer to that may be that Mr. Mueller’s true mission was to disable Mr. Trump as long as possible while setting an obstruction of justice trap — which also failed tactically.

Notice that Mr. Mueller declined to testify before the House Judiciary Committee last week. Chairman Jerrold Nadler (D-NY) was a fool to invite him. Did he not know that minority members of his committee get to ask questions too?

In an interesting turn of the screw last week, polling showed that a majority of those asked were in favor of investigations into the origin of the RussiaGate story. The FBI, being an agency under the direct supervision of the Attorney General, will be hosed out for sure. The CIA, on the other hand, has a sordid history of acting as a sovereign state within the state — hence the derivation of the Deep State. They are renowned for protecting their own. Remember, the Senate Minority Leader, Mr. Schumer, snidely told the incoming President Trump at the get-go that the Intel community “has six ways from Sunday at getting back at you.” I guess we’ll finally get to see about that because the CIA’s former director, the wicked Mr. Brennan, is grand jury bound. I suspect he will not be protected by his former colleagues. His downfall may presage a more thorough cleanup, and perhaps a major reorganization, of this monstrous agency.

The indictment of Julian Assange adds a big wrinkle to these upcoming proceedings. Apart for what it means to First Amendment protection for a free press (no small matter), Mr. Assange is the one person who actually knows who handed over the “hacked” DNC emails to Wikileaks. Perhaps getting the answer to that question is the real reason that the DOJ is throwing the book at him. The trial of Mr. Assange is sure to be a humdinger.

I’m convinced, personally, that all this melodrama will play out against the background of a cratering global economy, tanking financial markets, and epic disruption of the established international order. Consider laying in some supplies."


Crazy times we're living in. Some peeps could be in trouble. It's gonna be hilarious watching those who denied it was happening, crying like little bitches, once it all comes out. I look forward to the truth and now that the Russia investigation has been declassified we have lots of things that we shall learn.
Please give me the name of your dealer. Your brain is quite obviously the incarnation of "your brains on drugs" EGG SMASHED WITH A FRYING PAN. The rest of us would like a small taste into whatever the fuck you have fully indulged in. You never go full retard ... you have though ... maybe bring it back a bit. For example, you're questioning the beginning of the investigation ... I bet you think it was the Steele dossier. Objectively wrong, try harder. I would hope, for the good of our country, you would try a lot harder. Stop peaching out and think of your civic duty responsibly. Get out there and consume as much data as possible, think critically, and make your own decisions. Stop letting people tell you what you should think... it's objectively pathetic.
 
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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
24,848
4,563
126
I'm not questioning anyone on this forums views.

I only was questioning the House Reps that say they have what they need to impeach, but don't do anything.
I've got the same question myself. If Pelosi makes claims of cover ups and obstruction, how is that not enough to bring impeachment? After all impeachment is a political process where Congress isn't restricted to meeting the high bar of being guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

So knowing that the bar for impeachment is lower than the bar for criminal prosecution, what do you think their reasoning is for not bringing impeachment? Do you think they don't have a good case? Do you personally think trump obstructed or abused his power or hasn't served with dignity?

You yourself have said that if you aren't guilty of any crimes then what should you be afraid of if you are being investigated, so what is trump afraid of? Do you think he's hiding something?

I must say I find it weird that you like to give your opinion on a message board but when given the chance to explain yourself and possibly persuade others, in front of a captive audience, you decline to do so. Why is that? Are you not secure or confident in your beliefs? Most people who I've met who feel strongly about something are willing to have their beliefs questioned. Why aren't you? Is your ego so fragile that being an anonymous person on a message board doesn't offer the protection of your ego if it turns out your beliefs are based on incorrect facts or a misunderstanding of reality?


Its a shame people don't see the internet as a liberator where one is free from the consequences of being wrong and as an opportunity to be molded by truth, facts, and reality.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
5,719
1,022
126
I've got the same question myself. If Pelosi makes claims of cover ups and obstruction, how is that not enough to bring impeachment? After all impeachment is a political process where Congress isn't restricted to meeting the high bar of being guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

So knowing that the bar for impeachment is lower than the bar for criminal prosecution, what do you think their reasoning is for not bringing impeachment? Do you think they don't have a good case? Do you personally think trump obstructed or abused his power or hasn't served with dignity?

You yourself have said that if you aren't guilty of any crimes then what should you be afraid of if you are being investigated, so what is trump afraid of? Do you think he's hiding something?

I must say I find it weird that you like to give your opinion on a message board but when given the chance to explain yourself and possibly persuade others, in front of a captive audience, you decline to do so. Why is that? Are you not secure or confident in your beliefs? Most people who I've met who feel strongly about something are willing to have their beliefs questioned. Why aren't you? Is your ego so fragile that being an anonymous person on a message board doesn't offer the protection of your ego if it turns out your beliefs are based on incorrect facts or a misunderstanding of reality?


Its a shame people don't see the internet as a liberator where one is free from the consequences of being wrong and as an opportunity to be molded by truth, facts, and reality.
Here's a good reference article:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds

Really I think we succeeded as much as could humanly be expected. His lack of justification was the result of being effectively challenged to examine a tightly held socially derived belief for which he thought had justifiable understanding but realized didn't. The result is actually a moderation of belief. I think he may have been influenced. Not by our arguments themselves but by the realization his were insufficient.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
21,352
984
136
https://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/the-golem-strikes-back/
The Golem Strikes Back



"Not long ago, few Americans of the thinking persuasion might have imagined that such a well-engineered republic, with its exquisite checks and balances, sturdy institutions, and time-tested traditions would end up as so much smoldering goop in a national dumpster fire, but such is the sad state-of-the-union moving into the fateful summer of 2019. The castle of the permanent bureaucracy is about to be torched by an uprising of deplorable peasants led by a Golden Golem made furious by relentless litigation. It’s Game of Thrones meets the Thermidorian Reaction with a Weimar-flavored cherry on top — really one for the ages!

There’s perhaps a lot to dislike about Donald J. Trump, US President No. 45. Despite all the grooming and tailoring, there’s little savoir faire there. He tweets not like a mellifluous songbird, but in snorts like a rooting aardvark. His every predilection is an affront to the refined Washington establishment: his dark business history, his beloved ormolu trappings, his Mickey-D cheeseburgers, the mystifying hair-doo.

Even so, the bad faith of his antagonists exceeds even Mr. Trump’s defects and vices. The plot they concocted to get rid of him failed. And, yes, it was a plot, even a coup. And they fucked it up magnificently, leaving a paper trail as wide as Interstate-95. Now all that paper is about to fall over the District of Columbia like radioactive ash, turning many current and former denizens of rogue agencies into the walking dead as they embark on the dismal journey between the grand juries and the federal prisons.

Hence, the desperate rage of the impeachment faction, in direct proportion to their secret shameful knowledge that the entire RussiaGate melodrama was, in fact, a seditious subterfuge between the Hillary Clinton campaign and a great many key figures in government up-to-and-including former president Barack Obama, who could not have failed to be clued-in on all the action. Even before the declassification order, the true narrative of events has been plainly understood: that the US Intel “community” trafficked in fictitious malarkey supplied by Mrs. Clinton to illegally “meddle” in the 2016 election.

Most of the facts are already documented. Only a few details remain to be confirmed: for instance, whether international man-of-mystery and entrapment artist Josef Mifsud was in the employ of the CIA, and/or Britain’s MI6, and/or Mrs. Clinton’s Fusion GPS contractor (or Christopher Steele’s Orbis Business Intelligence company, a subcontractor to both Fusion GPS and the FBI). Questions will now be asked — though not by The New York Times.

The evidence already public indicates that Robert Mueller must have known as early as the date of his appointment (and likely before) that the predicating evidence for his inquiry was false. After all, his soon-to-be lead prosecutor, Andrew Weissmann, was informed of that in no uncertain terms by his DOJ colleague, Deputy Attorney General Bruce Ohr, in 2016. Justice may seek to know why Mr. Mueller did not inform the target of his inquiry that this was so. The answer to that may be that Mr. Mueller’s true mission was to disable Mr. Trump as long as possible while setting an obstruction of justice trap — which also failed tactically.

Notice that Mr. Mueller declined to testify before the House Judiciary Committee last week. Chairman Jerrold Nadler (D-NY) was a fool to invite him. Did he not know that minority members of his committee get to ask questions too?

In an interesting turn of the screw last week, polling showed that a majority of those asked were in favor of investigations into the origin of the RussiaGate story. The FBI, being an agency under the direct supervision of the Attorney General, will be hosed out for sure. The CIA, on the other hand, has a sordid history of acting as a sovereign state within the state — hence the derivation of the Deep State. They are renowned for protecting their own. Remember, the Senate Minority Leader, Mr. Schumer, snidely told the incoming President Trump at the get-go that the Intel community “has six ways from Sunday at getting back at you.” I guess we’ll finally get to see about that because the CIA’s former director, the wicked Mr. Brennan, is grand jury bound. I suspect he will not be protected by his former colleagues. His downfall may presage a more thorough cleanup, and perhaps a major reorganization, of this monstrous agency.

The indictment of Julian Assange adds a big wrinkle to these upcoming proceedings. Apart for what it means to First Amendment protection for a free press (no small matter), Mr. Assange is the one person who actually knows who handed over the “hacked” DNC emails to Wikileaks. Perhaps getting the answer to that question is the real reason that the DOJ is throwing the book at him. The trial of Mr. Assange is sure to be a humdinger.

I’m convinced, personally, that all this melodrama will play out against the background of a cratering global economy, tanking financial markets, and epic disruption of the established international order. Consider laying in some supplies."


Crazy times we're living in. Some peeps could be in trouble. It's gonna be hilarious watching those who denied it was happening, crying like little bitches, once it all comes out. I look forward to the truth and now that the Russia investigation has been declassified we have lots of things that we shall learn.
lol, I could only get to the beginning of the fourth paragraph. What a great example of the combination of stupidity and mediocre writing trying to be passed off as intelligent and insightful commentary. This is exactly what uninformed and "just above" poorly read people think of as brilliant. It's such a great analogy to the "what a poor person thinks a rich person is" or "what a weak person thinks a strong person is."

If you think this is clever or insightful, you may want to look inward. These pieces which feel like they're written by a college freshman who thinks he's "woke" and got his hands on a thesaurus give me a chuckle. His failed pseudointellectualism is showing.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
25,727
409
126
lol, I could only get to the beginning of the fourth paragraph. What a great example of the combination of stupidity and mediocre writing trying to be passed off as intelligent and insightful commentary. This is exactly what uninformed and "just above" poorly read people think of as brilliant. It's such a great analogy to the "what a poor person thinks a rich person is" or "what a weak person thinks a strong person is."

If you think this is clever or insightful, you may want to look inward. These pieces which feel like they're written by a college freshman who thinks he's "woke" and got his hands on a thesaurus give me a chuckle. His failed pseudointellectualism is showing.
I thought it was satire.... that's actually a "serious" article?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
63,798
10,996
126
I thought it was satire.... that's actually a "serious" article?
I mean the guy who posted it felt the need to lie about how he supposedly camps outside California DMVs spying on people secretly registering illegal immigrants to vote. He is not mentally well.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
5,719
1,022
126
https://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/the-golem-strikes-back/
The Golem Strikes Back



"Not long ago, few Americans of the thinking persuasion might have imagined that such a well-engineered republic, with its exquisite checks and balances, sturdy institutions, and time-tested traditions would end up as so much smoldering goop in a national dumpster fire, but such is the sad state-of-the-union moving into the fateful summer of 2019. The castle of the permanent bureaucracy is about to be torched by an uprising of deplorable peasants led by a Golden Golem made furious by relentless litigation. It’s Game of Thrones meets the Thermidorian Reaction with a Weimar-flavored cherry on top — really one for the ages!

There’s perhaps a lot to dislike about Donald J. Trump, US President No. 45. Despite all the grooming and tailoring, there’s little savoir faire there. He tweets not like a mellifluous songbird, but in snorts like a rooting aardvark. His every predilection is an affront to the refined Washington establishment: his dark business history, his beloved ormolu trappings, his Mickey-D cheeseburgers, the mystifying hair-doo.

Even so, the bad faith of his antagonists exceeds even Mr. Trump’s defects and vices. The plot they concocted to get rid of him failed. And, yes, it was a plot, even a coup. And they fucked it up magnificently, leaving a paper trail as wide as Interstate-95. Now all that paper is about to fall over the District of Columbia like radioactive ash, turning many current and former denizens of rogue agencies into the walking dead as they embark on the dismal journey between the grand juries and the federal prisons.

Hence, the desperate rage of the impeachment faction, in direct proportion to their secret shameful knowledge that the entire RussiaGate melodrama was, in fact, a seditious subterfuge between the Hillary Clinton campaign and a great many key figures in government up-to-and-including former president Barack Obama, who could not have failed to be clued-in on all the action. Even before the declassification order, the true narrative of events has been plainly understood: that the US Intel “community” trafficked in fictitious malarkey supplied by Mrs. Clinton to illegally “meddle” in the 2016 election.

Most of the facts are already documented. Only a few details remain to be confirmed: for instance, whether international man-of-mystery and entrapment artist Josef Mifsud was in the employ of the CIA, and/or Britain’s MI6, and/or Mrs. Clinton’s Fusion GPS contractor (or Christopher Steele’s Orbis Business Intelligence company, a subcontractor to both Fusion GPS and the FBI). Questions will now be asked — though not by The New York Times.

The evidence already public indicates that Robert Mueller must have known as early as the date of his appointment (and likely before) that the predicating evidence for his inquiry was false. After all, his soon-to-be lead prosecutor, Andrew Weissmann, was informed of that in no uncertain terms by his DOJ colleague, Deputy Attorney General Bruce Ohr, in 2016. Justice may seek to know why Mr. Mueller did not inform the target of his inquiry that this was so. The answer to that may be that Mr. Mueller’s true mission was to disable Mr. Trump as long as possible while setting an obstruction of justice trap — which also failed tactically.

Notice that Mr. Mueller declined to testify before the House Judiciary Committee last week. Chairman Jerrold Nadler (D-NY) was a fool to invite him. Did he not know that minority members of his committee get to ask questions too?

In an interesting turn of the screw last week, polling showed that a majority of those asked were in favor of investigations into the origin of the RussiaGate story. The FBI, being an agency under the direct supervision of the Attorney General, will be hosed out for sure. The CIA, on the other hand, has a sordid history of acting as a sovereign state within the state — hence the derivation of the Deep State. They are renowned for protecting their own. Remember, the Senate Minority Leader, Mr. Schumer, snidely told the incoming President Trump at the get-go that the Intel community “has six ways from Sunday at getting back at you.” I guess we’ll finally get to see about that because the CIA’s former director, the wicked Mr. Brennan, is grand jury bound. I suspect he will not be protected by his former colleagues. His downfall may presage a more thorough cleanup, and perhaps a major reorganization, of this monstrous agency.

The indictment of Julian Assange adds a big wrinkle to these upcoming proceedings. Apart for what it means to First Amendment protection for a free press (no small matter), Mr. Assange is the one person who actually knows who handed over the “hacked” DNC emails to Wikileaks. Perhaps getting the answer to that question is the real reason that the DOJ is throwing the book at him. The trial of Mr. Assange is sure to be a humdinger.

I’m convinced, personally, that all this melodrama will play out against the background of a cratering global economy, tanking financial markets, and epic disruption of the established international order. Consider laying in some supplies."


Crazy times we're living in. Some peeps could be in trouble. It's gonna be hilarious watching those who denied it was happening, crying like little bitches, once it all comes out. I look forward to the truth and now that the Russia investigation has been declassified we have lots of things that we shall learn.
Ah yes. That Hillary and Obama are indeed truly great criminal masterminds. I mean. Think about it for a second and consider the deviousness of grooming George Papadopolous to be part of the Trump organization and to stir up a false investigation into Trump by disclosing the false narrative they generated that Russia hacked the DNC and Podesta to an Australian diplomat months in advance of the narrative itself becoming public. That way it looks so convincing that the Trump campaign had insider knowledge of the Russian Hoax, what with Papadoplous also having had been encouraged to fly to Russia by the campaign to dig up dirt on Hillary. Truly an ingenious ploy that they hatched at least 5 years prior because they had to get him ingrained with the conservative think tank folk at the Hudson Institute and to get him to author op-eds to be groomed for this plant just at the right moment. A truly amazing persuasive maneuver to get him to be undercover for years as a Deep State agent and to fall on the sword later by pleading guilty for lying to the FBI and to make sure they have the judge on the take so that he only gets 14 days of imprisonment and 200 hours of community service. Quite a vast network of loyals they have to ensure things went well.

And don't get me started on the double agents they had to cultivate in Maria Butina and Natalya Veselnitskaya to keep the hoax going and link them with Trump campaign officials. Years upon years of building secret operatives to spring this trap all to take down the Trump Presidency that their magic 8 ball predicted in 1982!

Pro tip: The way to defeat a conspiracy theory is not to try and discredit it but rather to try and substantiate it.
 
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HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
19,658
4,864
136
I'm not questioning anyone on this forums views.

I only was questioning the House Reps that say they have what they need to impeach, but don't do anything.
To be accurate some in the House say that, others don't
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
22,381
638
126
Prevarication 101:

Accuse the accuser of being "fake news."

Barr should be disbarred. He's abdicated any right to being a member of the American Bar Association.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
64,712
2,045
126
.....................................

Pro tip: The way to defeat a conspiracy theory is not to try and discredit it but rather to try and substantiate it.
Nice post and an interesting link from earlier. When I read The Golem Strikes Back I tried to imagine my world view as potentially upside down and the words I was reading as true. It was a horrifying experience, so much so in fact that it would be easily understandable on an emotional level why I would reject it. It would be very much like being a Christian and finding out that you worship the Anti-Christ in the personage of Donald Trump. I can feel within me a doubt that produces a terrible inner stress that I could be so wrong. And it strikes me that the only way I could possible allow such a feeling to enter into my consciousness is because I've done it before. I actually was that wrong and not only did I survive it, I landed is a much better place.

The point that I am fumbling around with trying to put into words is that the sensation that arises out of considering one's whole worldview as wrong evokes a sense of doom. And analytically speaking, the only way I can see that the feeling of doom would arise is that it is already present and unconsciously felt. It is the doubt that threatens to expose it.

Also, by adopting a tentative acceptance that Trump is the good guy that will save us from an evil deep state, the reactions on the left simply to rave on about how it's paranoid nonsense strike me as anything but convincing and actually quite irritating. It can feel as though you said matter and energy are the same thing only to be called crazy.

I thought what you did here made me feel much better. I'm back now to what I originally believed and feeling much better. :)

Anyway, I think that perhaps in addition to any sociability distortions of our reasoning there may be from our days on the African plane, I think there are factors that lock us in related to dread. Perhaps they are one and the same ultimately, but the former strikes me as a bit more clinical, as in abstract and intellectual, whereas dread might have a far more contemporaneous and perhaps malleable, as in repairable, cause, one, that is, amenable to psychoanalysis.
 
Mar 11, 2004
19,095
1,681
126
To be accurate some in the House say that, others don't
Er, does he not understand how Congress works? They have to work towards building a consensus before they'd be able to do something like impeach. I'm constantly amazed at how thoroughly ignorant these fucking clownbabies are.
 
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BurnItDwn

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
25,015
806
126
I'm not too sure. It could be as she basically claims, political expediency to not impeach.
She is smart, and I believe doing things using the strategy that she things is the most expedient.

But, bravery is not expedience.
 

VRAMdemon

Platinum Member
Aug 16, 2012
2,810
1,495
136
I don't see her as "cowardly". The Democrats can at least say that they showed some restraint for the good of the country. If they impeach before the country is ready for it, then they've lost the plot, and Trump goes into gladiator mode, which is what he wants. He wants to create a crisis so that he can fight 'the enemy of the people'.

If the House votes to start impeachment hearings, then he and the GOP would insist on voting ASAP. And we all know it's dead the moment it goes to the Senate. It's better to investigate and use the power you have in the House to pummel him with investigations. Recent Trump behavior is as criminal and despicable. He's being goaded into playing the fool. The House have the power to call witnesses and TV cameras, even without an Impeachment Motion pending. In defying the subpoenas, Trump and his gang will commit more crimes, openly.

She's playing the long game. We can think that he shouldn't get away with this all we want, but like it or not, the rest of the country has to be convinced and persuaded that it's not in their interests to support Trump or the GOP. I think she wants to keep the pressure on Trump knowing that he will eventually do something that will turn the country against him. Moreover, whether the public can ultimately be convinced that impeachment is necessary or not, she understands that it is far better to let the public walk away from the Trump era with the feeling that the result reflects the popular will.

Trump is painfully ignorant and incompetent in terms of actually being president, but he understands how to manipulate people. He lies because he knows that many people want to believe his lies. He understands the dynamics of power between people. many of his supporters don't take the schtick seriously; they take his pugnacity seriously, and they see strength in his defiance of his critics and prosecutors. Trump takes advantage of people's ignorance. Trump is doing serious, long-lasting damage to the United States in innumerable ways, but the average person doesn't see it because they're ignorant. Things look normal, like they always have, except that there's more noise on TV and more ranting on their Facebook wall. The most practical way to defeat Trump is to let Trump and his Republican enablers hang themselves with their own rope. She understands that Trump is a terrible president and that, in time, that will be evident to many more people than it is now. We should be letting Trump beat himself, because the odds are that he will.

Impeach when the time is right..
 

BurnItDwn

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
25,015
806
126
I don't see her as "cowardly". The Democrats can at least say that they showed some restraint for the good of the country. If they impeach before the country is ready for it, then they've lost the plot, and Trump goes into gladiator mode, which is what he wants. He wants to create a crisis so that he can fight 'the enemy of the people'.

If the House votes to start impeachment hearings, then he and the GOP would insist on voting ASAP. And we all know it's dead the moment it goes to the Senate. It's better to investigate and use the power you have in the House to pummel him with investigations. Recent Trump behavior is as criminal and despicable. He's being goaded into playing the fool. The House have the power to call witnesses and TV cameras, even without an Impeachment Motion pending. In defying the subpoenas, Trump and his gang will commit more crimes, openly.

She's playing the long game. We can think that he shouldn't get away with this all we want, but like it or not, the rest of the country has to be convinced and persuaded that it's not in their interests to support Trump or the GOP. I think she wants to keep the pressure on Trump knowing that he will eventually do something that will turn the country against him. Moreover, whether the public can ultimately be convinced that impeachment is necessary or not, she understands that it is far better to let the public walk away from the Trump era with the feeling that the result reflects the popular will.

Trump is painfully ignorant and incompetent in terms of actually being president, but he understands how to manipulate people. He lies because he knows that many people want to believe his lies. He understands the dynamics of power between people. many of his supporters don't take the schtick seriously; they take his pugnacity seriously, and they see strength in his defiance of his critics and prosecutors. Trump takes advantage of people's ignorance. Trump is doing serious, long-lasting damage to the United States in innumerable ways, but the average person doesn't see it because they're ignorant. Things look normal, like they always have, except that there's more noise on TV and more ranting on their Facebook wall. The most practical way to defeat Trump is to let Trump and his Republican enablers hang themselves with their own rope. She understands that Trump is a terrible president and that, in time, that will be evident to many more people than it is now. We should be letting Trump beat himself, because the odds are that he will.

Impeach when the time is right..
I hope the more level headed and less hot headed people are right.
But, as a hot-headed person, I disagree with the level headed approach in times of extreme danger.

If Trump starts war in Iran, there is no possible hope of ending corrupt Trump regime and Trump knows it.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
22,381
638
126
I hope the more level headed and less hot headed people are right.
But, as a hot-headed person, I disagree with the level headed approach in times of extreme danger.

If Trump starts war in Iran, there is no possible hope of ending corrupt Trump regime and Trump knows it.
He'll be last years new eventually, in 2025 for sure, maybe in 2021. Meantime we may be burying a lot of dead and ruing our lost nation.
 

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