Banks admit they clear largest checks/debits first

allisolm

Elite Member
Administrator
Jan 2, 2001
25,198
4,774
136
We've long suspected it, but now it's for sure. Most banks process biggest checks/debits first, generating more fees for them. So, if you live with a balance that doesn't have much room for error, be aware and write those checks/debits with this in mind.

"Eight of the nation's 10 largest banks ? Citigroup (C), Bank of America (BAC), Chase (JPM), Wachovia (WB), Wells Fargo (WFC), HSBC (HBC), U.S. Bank (USB) and SunTrust (STI)? typically pay checks that arrive on the same day from the largest to smallest dollar amount..." "...instead of processing them in the order they come in."

"Here's how high-to-low check processing works: Say you have $50 in the bank. And suppose three checks come in on the same day: for $20, $15 and $45. The bank would clear the $45 one first. That way, it could charge you a fee, of up to $35, for each of two checks bouncing. If it had cleared the lowest-amount check first, you'd incur only one bounced-check fee."


Article



 

slsmnaz

Diamond Member
Mar 13, 2005
4,016
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Don't float checks??

In your example, you write checks for $80 and only have $50 in the bank? Why would you be pissed to be charged a bounced-check fee?
 

allisolm

Elite Member
Administrator
Jan 2, 2001
25,198
4,774
136
Unfortunately, article doesn't even address the order in which they process debits versus credits. :(
 

Scarpozzi

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
26,391
1,780
126
Originally posted by: CollectiveUnconscious
What pisses me off the most is when they clear debits before credits, even if the credits were made 7 hours prior to the debit.
Often, the vendors process credits in batches at the end of the day. They do this for the paper trail, documentation, etc....but it really depends on the system. I think it should all be instant, including checks. (telecheck readers, etc). I wish all of that was mandatory to protect the buyer....but then again, a lot of people bank on knowing that it takes a day or two to clear.

As far as the larger charges first, most of us have known this for a long time. My bank has hit me with this once or twice. It usually happens when they hold over charges for a few weeks and then process everything in one day. I've seen them charge me for visa check card charges up to a week and a half after the actual charge. I've since started keeping a minimum of $500 in any one checking account to protect myself from their poor business practices, but have friends complain about it all the time.
 

CollectiveUnconscious

Senior member
Jan 27, 2006
587
0
0
Originally posted by: Scarpozzi
Originally posted by: CollectiveUnconscious
What pisses me off the most is when they clear debits before credits, even if the credits were made 7 hours prior to the debit.
Often, the vendors process credits in batches at the end of the day. They do this for the paper trail, documentation, etc....but it really depends on the system. I think it should all be instant, including checks. (telecheck readers, etc). I wish all of that was mandatory to protect the buyer....but then again, a lot of people bank on knowing that it takes a day or two to clear.

As far as the larger charges first, most of us have known this for a long time. My bank has hit me with this once or twice. It usually happens when they hold over charges for a few weeks and then process everything in one day. I've seen them charge me for visa check card charges up to a week and a half after the actual charge. I've since started keeping a minimum of $500 in any one checking account to protect myself from their poor business practices, but have friends complain about it all the time.

I'm saying, if I deposit my paycheck at 8am on a Thursday morning, then pay my bills, electronically, at 5pm Thursday evening, they will take money out of my account for bills before they clear my paycheck, even though they have had it for a full business day. I don't understand this practice.
 

GasX

Lifer
Feb 8, 2001
29,033
6
81
The banks are providing a service: An expensive lesson in how not to be a jerk off with your bank balance.
 

GasX

Lifer
Feb 8, 2001
29,033
6
81
Originally posted by: Mike
Originally posted by: Mwilding
The banks are providing a service: An expensive lesson in how not to be a jerk off with your bank balance.

Hardly

ok, keep paying the services fees and seeking commiseration on discussion boards...
 

crystal

Platinum Member
Nov 5, 1999
2,424
0
0
Originally posted by: CollectiveUnconscious
Originally posted by: Scarpozzi
Originally posted by: CollectiveUnconscious
What pisses me off the most is when they clear debits before credits, even if the credits were made 7 hours prior to the debit.
Often, the vendors process credits in batches at the end of the day. They do this for the paper trail, documentation, etc....but it really depends on the system. I think it should all be instant, including checks. (telecheck readers, etc). I wish all of that was mandatory to protect the buyer....but then again, a lot of people bank on knowing that it takes a day or two to clear.

As far as the larger charges first, most of us have known this for a long time. My bank has hit me with this once or twice. It usually happens when they hold over charges for a few weeks and then process everything in one day. I've seen them charge me for visa check card charges up to a week and a half after the actual charge. I've since started keeping a minimum of $500 in any one checking account to protect myself from their poor business practices, but have friends complain about it all the time.

I'm saying, if I deposit my paycheck at 8am on a Thursday morning, then pay my bills, electronically, at 5pm Thursday evening, they will take money out of my account for bills before they clear my paycheck, even though they have had it for a full business day. I don't understand this practice.

At least at the ATM deposit, don't they give you a message saying your fund might not be available within 24 hrs? BTW, checks might take up to a week or more to clear.

As for your complain, think it through a little bit. Let said you depoist a $100,000 fake check to your account, then you withdraw it in the same day while the check is not clear. The said check bounce a few days later, while you make out like a little bandit.

 

SpecialEd

Platinum Member
Jul 18, 2001
2,110
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0
Anytime I make a deposit (even if its cash), the banker tells me the deposit will post at midnight that night. Good management is all you need to avoid such fees.
 
Dec 4, 2002
18,211
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0
Originally posted by: Mwilding
Originally posted by: Mike
Originally posted by: Mwilding
The banks are providing a service: An expensive lesson in how not to be a jerk off with your bank balance.

Hardly

ok, keep paying the services fees and seeking commiseration on discussion boards...

I do neither, but your original logic is flawed at best.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,781
4,318
126
So YOU violate the law, in what is often a criminal offense. And then YOU complain about the order that the bank processes your illegal activities. I think you need to reconsider the priorities here. Be glad that the bank only gives you fees.

Clarification: Often there is a small dollar limit for where you can be arrested. If they processed the small checks first and then just bounced the large checks, you will most likely be bouncing checks that are big enough for you to be arrested and charged with criminal theft. Instead, they process the big ones first, so that you only bounce small checks that are not big enough to justify an arrest (but you could still be sued and lose).

As for the length of time for deposits, it is again federal law that dictates the amount of time they have. If you want to change it, petition your congressmen - that way it can be altered. Petitioning ATOT will accomplish nothing.
 

dug777

Lifer
Oct 13, 2004
24,778
4
0
Makes sense to me, if you were a business person, of course you'd want that biggest account settled first, as far as your 'credit' standing in the business world is concerned...

I did a banking law unit this semester tho, and the common law currently in Australia (Claytons case) would suggest that such behaviour would be not allowed here, although there is some uncertainty as to whether there is an exception on a daily basis (The Mecca; re Laughton)..


iirc that is ;)
 

MrMaster

Golden Member
Nov 16, 2001
1,235
2
76
www.pc-prime.com
Originally posted by: SpecialEd
Anytime I make a deposit (even if its cash), the banker tells me the deposit will post at midnight that night. Good management is all you need to avoid such fees.


It has nothing to do with good management. So your bank has next day funds availability. That has very little to do with this situation at hand where they are using discretionary practices to decide to pay the big checks causing you to have multple NSFs.


 

SoulAssassin

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2001
6,135
2
0
BAC got in trouble for this a few years ago - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_America#Excessive_overdraft_fees


Excessive overdraft fees

In 1999, a class action lawsuit was filed against Bank of America for engaging in the practice of "Biggest Check First" check-clearing. Put simply, the bank clears checks and ATM/debit card transactions in order from biggest to smallest, with less regard to what time they come in during that business day. The lawsuit claimed that this is done on purpose: that the bank is manipulating the order of transactions to trigger more overdraft fees to collect.

Customers cannot avoid these fees by avoiding use of written checks; the bank employs the same practice for ATM and debit card transactions. Compounding the issue, the bank authorizes transactions in such a way that one debit card purchase - with funds that were available at the time of purchase - can trigger multiple overdraft fees.

When customers make debit card purchases through any modern bank, the charge is immediately deducted from their available balance. Technically, this is just a hold on the funds; the charge is not deducted from the actual balance until the merchant settles the transaction with the bank. At Bank of America, if the merchant does not settle within three business days, the funds are once again made available for spending. Thus, the same money can be spent twice. When the merchant does settle the transaction, these funds are again deducted, even if this overdraws the account, which can result in an overdraft fee.

Here's an example: A customer has $100 in her account. On Tuesday, using her debit card, she buys coffee for $3, a small amount of gas for $15, and $25 worth of groceries. The $43 she spent is immediately deducted, and her available balance decreases to $57. If the merchants with whom the customer made the Tuesday purchases fail to settle the transactions before Friday, the $43 shows up on the account as available, bringing her account back to $100. On Saturday she withdraws the $100 from an ATM. As of Sunday night, her account shows exactly $0 remaining available. On Monday evening, all of the merchants with whom she has made purchases the prior week settle their transactions.

When the customer checks her statement Tuesday morning, she finds three overdraft charges, for the three purchases on the prior Tuesday. The customer is naturally confused, as she had not overdrawn her account for any of these transactions when she made them on that day. However, because all four transactions clear on Monday, and the bank clears biggest items first, Tuesday's purchases are all listed after the $100 ATM withdrawal that occured four days later. The customer is charged three overdraft charges total, instead of one or none.

BOA's response is that their online banking and ATM systems should not be used to determine balance; customers should keep a written account register to be sure of their actual balance.

Bank representatives claim that "Biggest Check First" insulates the Bank from undue risk. By paying the largest items first, the Bank ensures that no loss is incurred on the largest items, and most risky items. Smaller items pose less liability to the Bank, and are therefore paid last. Also, the order in which checks are presented doesn't always correlate with their post time, because their negotiation can happen in a number of ways.

Bank representatives also claim that this benefits customers: larger transactions typically represent more important items on a customer's account such as a mortgage or rent payment, car payment, etc. By paying these items first, the bank helps insure that the customer's most important transactions go through.

The "Biggest Check First" policy is not unique to Bank of America, and is common among other large U.S. banks, such as JP Morgan Chase, Citibank, and Wachovia. It was this policy, in conjunction with the other practices listed above, that prompted the lawsuit. BofA paid a $9M settlement and the lawsuit was dismissed without an admission of fault; BofA continues to process transactions from highest to lowest amounts.

BofA has increased the length of time [debit card] authorizations are listed as pending in online banking from 1 business day to 3 business days to reduce confusion over the actual available balance.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
If you spot such things; call up the bank and talk to them about it;

Depending on your relationship with them; the fees may be waived for the extra items.

ie. they may charge your account the way you would like it to happen (to your benefit).
 

chambersc

Diamond Member
Feb 11, 2005
6,247
0
0
Originally posted by: slsmnaz
Don't float checks??

In your example, you write checks for $80 and only have $50 in the bank? Why would you be pissed to be charged a bounced-check fee?

Solution solved.
 

dug777

Lifer
Oct 13, 2004
24,778
4
0
Originally posted by: chambersc
Originally posted by: slsmnaz
Don't float checks??

In your example, you write checks for $80 and only have $50 in the bank? Why would you be pissed to be charged a bounced-check fee?

Solution solved.

Aside from responses like this, it is actually an interesting legal question, and it could have significant monetary fallout depending on which way a court went... ;)
 

Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
28,651
100
91
Big banks are complete dirtbags. This doesn't surprise me at all. Bags of money controlled by worthless bags of dirt.
 

IceBergSLiM

Lifer
Jul 11, 2000
29,932
3
81
I love how if you cash a BOA check into a BOA account it takes 24 hours to clear. But if you cash a BOA check without an account at BOA you can get the cash immediately. slimy banking bastards
 

daniel1113

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2003
6,448
0
0
So? I'm pretty sure dealing with the bigger transactions first is a pretty common business practice, period. There's nothing to see here folks. Move along.
 

IceBergSLiM

Lifer
Jul 11, 2000
29,932
3
81
Originally posted by: daniel1113
So? I'm pretty sure dealing with the bigger transactions first is a pretty common business practice, period. There's nothing to see here folks. Move along.

the p;oint is you can end up paying 175.00 in fees for what can only be 4.00 - 5.00 in transactions. The bank should deny electronic debits which will put you into the red and it knowingly does not. My credit union will not let me go into the red with debit card/atm withdrawals it simply denies the transaction just like a credit card would. These large banks knowingly allow you to spend more than you have just so they can rape you with charges.
 

d3n

Golden Member
Mar 13, 2004
1,597
0
0
USAA doesn't seem to pull that kind of crap. The one time that I had insufficient funds in my checking they called to ask if I wanted to set up roll over protection on my savings account. In fact they have an instant check deposit by phone service. Deposits up to 5k is available immediately I think.

The bank section of USAA was accepting members from the general public up until July. Normally except during special sign up periods its a bank service for military and family members. I just say this so those interested can keep an eye open for any future openings.
 

ryan256

Platinum Member
Jul 22, 2005
2,514
0
71
Originally posted by: allisolm
We've long suspected it, but now it's for sure. Most banks process biggest checks/debits first, generating more fees for them. So, if you live with a balance that doesn't have much room for error, be aware and write those checks/debits with this in mind.

"Eight of the nation's 10 largest banks ? Citigroup (C), Bank of America (BAC), Chase (JPM), Wachovia (WB), Wells Fargo (WFC), HSBC (HBC), U.S. Bank (USB) and SunTrust (STI)? typically pay checks that arrive on the same day from the largest to smallest dollar amount..." "...instead of processing them in the order they come in."

"Here's how high-to-low check processing works: Say you have $50 in the bank. And suppose three checks come in on the same day: for $20, $15 and $45. The bank would clear the $45 one first. That way, it could charge you a fee, of up to $35, for each of two checks bouncing. If it had cleared the lowest-amount check first, you'd incur only one bounced-check fee."


Article
And... this is news to y'all???