Ballsy column on health care reform by retirement planner in today's paper

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
39,888
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He makes a number of great points and I recommend reading this. I read it in today's (Tuesday) Oakland Tribune on page C2 (Business section). This appeared in more than one Bay Area paper, obviously.


Butler: Health care reform big leap forward for America

Steve Butler, financial columnist
Posted: 12/28/2009 12:14:34 PM PST
Updated: 12/28/2009 04:56:09 PM PST

http://www.contracostatimes.com/business/ci_14081492

While Congress marches toward health care reform, I'm surprised that I haven't heard two obvious arguments for why passage is so critical.

First, the 40 million uninsured Americans are not the same ones year after year. The average employee changes jobs every seven years, so this means that at any one time, there are 40 million uninsured. However, the number of people who can expect to be part of that 40 million at some point during their lifetime is easily more than 100 million or more.

I hope constituents remember, "There but for the grace of God go I" before they start railing at their representatives during the holiday recess.

With regard to costs, I wrote a column on July 15 quoting my nephew, a young doctor in North Carolina, who said that a third of his patients are insured, a third are on Medicare, and a third are uninsured. That final third tries to pay, but usually goes through personal bankruptcy if stricken with anything serious. Basically, the insured portion has to pay enough to support the losses from the uninsured.

So, this begs the question, "Why hasn't a single media article pointed out that health insurance premiums that the rest of us pay should drop substantially if our increased tax dollars will be supporting these uninsured people." Moreover, won't it be less expensive to treat people proactively rather than having them show up in an ambulance at the emergency room?

Malcom Gladwell wrote a 2006 New Yorker piece about Murray Barr, a Reno homeless person who had cost the city and its hospitals more than $1 million in repeated admittances. The hospitals just spent the time and money ($100,000 in one bout with Murray) and raised the rates for the rest of Reno's hospital patients. Insurance companies cheerfully picked up the tab and passed the costs on in higher premiums — keeping roughly 30 percent for administration, advertising, marketing and executive bonuses.

Passing this legislation in whatever form it finally takes will be just the beginning. The rest of the work will be accomplished over the coming years as we eat the elephant one bite at a time. No public option? No problem. There's already Kaiser, a nonprofit with a results-based business model far ahead of the rest of the health care industry doing what the public option was intended to accomplish. Other private foundation money will enter the fray to provide nonprofit competition in the marketplace just like Blue Cross once did before the opportunists in its management found a way to take it public 10 years ago and pocket $250 million for themselves.

It may cost more money as we go through the transition, but so what? We spend $15 billion maintaining 10,000 atomic bombs. We subsidize sugar production. How can we save enough elsewhere to compensate? Let me count the ways.

The most productive aspect of this great debate is the extent to which cost control has become part of national policy. Until now, it was just business owners gnashing their teeth at the announcement of ever-rising premiums. These hapless guys footing the bill were three steps removed from the delivery and pricing of the services they felt forced to buy.

For the 90 percent of Americans who work for companies of less than 100 employees, and the army of the periodically unemployed, the coming sea change in health care represents a major leap forward.
 
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0marTheZealot

Golden Member
Apr 5, 2004
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It's an okay first step. The end game has to be a system like France, Germany, Norway, Finland, etc etc etc. Our current system sucks, plain and simple.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
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Could you please tell me which of his 'points' are 'great'??

It reads more like a typical P&N post than anything else.

He makes 'points' that sound good but don't stand up to analysis, such as the idea that treating people proactively is better than having them show up at emergency rooms. That argument is one of the biggest red herrings in all of healthcare since there is no factual data or studies to back it up.
 

Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
5,922
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It may cost more money as we go through the transition, but so what? We spend $15 billion maintaining 10,000 atomic bombs. We subsidize sugar production. How can we save enough elsewhere to compensate? Let me count the ways.

Ok, so we stop maintaining nuclear bombs and stop subsidizing sugar. Where does the other 1 trillion dollars come from? What a freaking joke. Never mind Obama and his band of drunken sailors called Congress aren't suggesting ANY spending cuts. I thought this plan was supposed to pay for itself in savings?

YOU LIE
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
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Ok, so we stop maintaining nuclear bombs and stop subsidizing sugar. Where does the other 1 trillion dollars come from? What a freaking joke. Never mind Obama and his band of drunken sailors called Congress aren't suggesting ANY spending cuts. I thought this plan was supposed to pay for itself in savings?

YOU LIE

Incorrect. The bill makes cuts to Medicare.

- wolf
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
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Well how about not treating those without healthcare, then it will be cheaper for those who do have healthcare.

No, thats too practical. So instead we'll take more from the working man to give healthcare to those who do little do deserve it. Yes yes, I know. Heard it all before. You cold hearted son of a bitch. Yep.

I'm tired of paying others way through life. You dont eat? Not my problem. You dont have a house? Why do I have to pay your rent? Sick? tough.

Nothing motivates like hunger.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
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So under the current bill, does that homeless person suddenly not cost $1M to treat? He's homeless, he's still not going to have insurance or contribute to society in any way, and he's still going to cost $1M.

All the hocus pocus in the world can't change the fact that nothing currently on the table does ANYTHING to reduce costs. It's a shell game, accounting tricks, smoke and mirrors.

It's bizarre to watch Democrats become exactly like Republicans during the Bush years. Complete cognitive dissonance.
 

xchangx

Golden Member
Mar 23, 2000
1,692
1
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Incorrect. The bill makes cuts to Medicare.

- wolf

Sucks for the column writer's nephew. Another 1/3 (partial) of his business. Looks like he'll have to increase rates on the insured to stay in business.

"With regard to costs, I wrote a column on July 15 quoting my nephew, a young doctor in North Carolina, who said that a third of his patients are insured, a third are on Medicare, and a third are uninsured. "
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
39,888
9,590
136
It's an okay first step. The end game has to be a system like France, Germany, Norway, Finland, etc etc etc. Our current system sucks, plain and simple.
I agree. I figure our first step had to be a bungled compromise and that things will change, reshuffle, there will be crises, misgivings, reshaping of policy, new approaches, all those things and more before things start to really settle out in the USA concerning healthcare in the 21st century.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
39,888
9,590
136
Could you please tell me which of his 'points' are 'great'??

It reads more like a typical P&N post than anything else.

He makes 'points' that sound good but don't stand up to analysis, such as the idea that treating people proactively is better than having them show up at emergency rooms. That argument is one of the biggest red herrings in all of healthcare since there is no factual data or studies to back it up.
If you doubt that you are clueless. He does quote one instance, the one case of the homeless guy who piled up $1,000,000 in bills in ER visits. If you can only be convinced by impossible to compile statistical analyses, there's little hope for you.

"There are lies, damned lies and statistics." - Mark Twain
 
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Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
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If you doubt that you are clueless. He does quote one instance, the one case of the homeless guy who piled up $1,000,000 in bills in ER visits. If you can only be convinced by impossible to compile statistical analyses, there's little hope for you.

So you are comfortable cherry picking one instance and projecting that to all cases?

Interesting.... I guess theres little hope for you.
 

0marTheZealot

Golden Member
Apr 5, 2004
1,692
0
0
Well how about not treating those without healthcare, then it will be cheaper for those who do have healthcare.

No, thats too practical. So instead we'll take more from the working man to give healthcare to those who do little do deserve it. Yes yes, I know. Heard it all before. You cold hearted son of a bitch. Yep.

I'm tired of paying others way through life. You dont eat? Not my problem. You dont have a house? Why do I have to pay your rent? Sick? tough.

Nothing motivates like hunger.

You'll sing a different tune if/when you lose your job.

Explain to me why, literally, dozens of countries can insure all their citizens for less money than what we currently do. On top of that, they enjoy considerably higher quality of life in almost every measurable index. Our system is fundamentally broken, it's just that the vast majority of people don't realize it.
 

DaveJ

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,337
1
81
Well how about not treating those without healthcare, then it will be cheaper for those who do have healthcare.

No, thats too practical. So instead we'll take more from the working man to give healthcare to those who do little do deserve it. Yes yes, I know. Heard it all before. You cold hearted son of a bitch. Yep.

I'm tired of paying others way through life. You dont eat? Not my problem. You dont have a house? Why do I have to pay your rent? Sick? tough.

Nothing motivates like hunger.

Christ, here we go again.

The entire concept of health insurance is built around the fact that not everyone needs medical care all the time. Assuming you have health insurance currently, where do you think your premiums are going? That's right, they're paying for others who need medical care.

The whole concept of living in a society means in part that every person is not solely responsible for their own share, but they depend on society as a whole to provide for their needs. Do you grow all of your own food? Make all of your electricity? Build your own roads? Fight your own house fires? The list is practically endless, and there is absolutely NO reason why healthcare should not be included as a public good. Every single other Westernized nation seems to have figured this simple concept out, but unsurprisingly "Americans" such as yourself are too selfish and self-absorbed to comprehend it.

You rail and moan about paying for "others" healthcare, but if your house catches fire I seriously doubt you'd let it burn down, you'd call someone else for help.

Also, what makes you think that everyone who is sick actually had any control over their conditions? There are many people out there suffering from incurable conditions that they have no control over. Should they be forced to live a substandard life just to be able to afford the healthcare they need to stay alive? Again, this is something that other countries have all figured out, but "Americans" such as yourself just can't get it through their thick heads.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
I think the US should do nothing or go single-payer. This bill does not satisfy. It is another corporate cock-waxing.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
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I think the US should do nothing or go single-payer. This bill does not satisfy. It is another corporate cock-waxing.

Single payer married to our existing system will do NOTHING for cost, except raise them.

Johnny goes to doctor for his broken arm. Doc charges insurance company $20,000 after all is said and done.

Single payer (i.e. government paid): same scenario, but now doc charges uncle sam $20,000.

The difference? Well, now uncle sam gets overcharged, and a 3 trillion dollar industry that affects almost every person's retirement goes bankrupt. Hmm I wonder how many people are employed altogether by the private insurance industry that will be out of work.

Ah well. At least they'll have insurance.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
39,888
9,590
136
So you are comfortable cherry picking one instance and projecting that to all cases?

Interesting.... I guess theres little hope for you.
Well, I've been reading your posts and don't expect more from you.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
39,888
9,590
136
Originally Posted by DaveJ;29124739
Christ, here we go again.

The entire concept of health insurance is built around the fact that not everyone needs medical care all the time. Assuming you have health insurance currently, where do you think your premiums are going? That's right, they're paying for others who need medical care.

The whole concept of living in a society means in part that every person is not solely responsible for their own share, but they depend on society as a whole to provide for their needs. Do you grow all of your own food? Make all of your electricity? Build your own roads? Fight your own house fires? The list is practically endless, and there is absolutely NO reason why healthcare should not be included as a public good. Every single other Westernized nation seems to have figured this simple concept out, but unsurprisingly "Americans" such as yourself are too selfish and self-absorbed to comprehend it.

You rail and moan about paying for "others" healthcare, but if your house catches fire I seriously doubt you'd let it burn down, you'd call someone else for help.

Also, what makes you think that everyone who is sick actually had any control over their conditions? There are many people out there suffering from incurable conditions that they have no control over. Should they be forced to live a substandard life just to be able to afford the healthcare they need to stay alive? Again, this is something that other countries have all figured out, but "Americans" such as yourself just can't get it through their thick heads.

QFT, great post Dave.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
If you doubt that you are clueless. He does quote one instance, the one case of the homeless guy who piled up $1,000,000 in bills in ER visits. If you can only be convinced by impossible to compile statistical analyses, there's little hope for you.

And how does this current diaster of a bill solve that problem? Did I miss the part that allows care providers to refuse service to homeless people when they visit the ER?
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
39,888
9,590
136
And how does this current diaster of a bill solve that problem? Did I miss the part that allows care providers to refuse service to homeless people when they visit the ER?
You are being facetious? The point is that if homeless people can get ongoing medical care they won't make as many visits to the ER. Health maintenance is cheaper than emergency care.

"A stitch in time saves nine."

"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."
 

ebaycj

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2002
5,418
0
0
Well how about not treating those without healthcare, then it will be cheaper for those who do have healthcare.

No, thats too practical. So instead we'll take more from the working man to give healthcare to those who do little do deserve it. Yes yes, I know. Heard it all before. You cold hearted son of a bitch. Yep.

I'm tired of paying others way through life. You dont eat? Not my problem. You dont have a house? Why do I have to pay your rent? Sick? tough.

Nothing motivates like hunger.

You are right in that "Nothing motivates like hunger". You want hungry / homeless people breaking in to your place? You want them hanging around your kids school? You want them breaking in to your toasty-warm business (at night when you're not there)? Because there will be a lot of them, and they will be very motivated.

Your way of thinking completely disregards ANY benefit that we as a society get due to "paying others way through life". The facts are, there are losers, there are broke people, there are sick people, there are unskilled people, and there always will be (for the forseeable future). We can either help them, so they can "blend" in with the society of "able" people, or, we can do nothing, and let them bring the society of "able" people down a notch or two or ten. Which seems like the "right" thing to do? Which one would you be proud to go tell your mother that you did (as a kid)?

You are a whiny, greedy little bitch. Why don't you just make more money? Then you would be able to support yourself to the standard that you feel you deserve. Oh, you can't? As in you aren't able to? You're only one to two steps away from those you demonize.
 

ebaycj

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2002
5,418
0
0
Sucks for the column writer's nephew. Another 1/3 (partial) of his business. Looks like he'll have to increase rates on the insured to stay in business.

"With regard to costs, I wrote a column on July 15 quoting my nephew, a young doctor in North Carolina, who said that a third of his patients are insured, a third are on Medicare, and a third are uninsured. "

...But the number of insured should be doubling, so wouldn't that lead to a halving of their costs (relative to right now)?
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
You are being facetious? The point is that if homeless people can get ongoing medical care they won't make as many visits to the ER. Health maintenance is cheaper than emergency care.

"A stitch in time saves nine."

"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

Nice ASSumption.

Why would the homeless guy not continue to use the ER? Doesn't matter to him, it doesn't cost him anything either way. He can go put his name on a list to see a GP or he can just show up at the ER when things are bad and get treated anyway.

Which scenario do you really think is more likely? Hell, if the government is paying, why wouldn't EVERYONE just use the ER as their primary care? It's all free to the patient anyway, and in the ER you're seen immediately.

No, the current bills do nothing to stop any of this. Without top to bottom reform these bills just make things worse.