Bailout lament: What about me?

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
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http://www.boston.com/news/loc..._lament_what_about_me/

Brian Carpenter bought his Woburn home in 1980, and 29 years later, he has never missed a mortgage payment. It wasn't always easy. With three kids, it meant driving old cars, clipping coupons, and brown-bagging it to work.

Now, he sees the federal government committing nearly $1 trillion to bail out banks and struggling homeowners, and nearly $800 billion to offset economic damage caused by reckless lending and borrowing. What's in it for him? Probably $13-a-week, the middle-class tax cut in the stimulus bill.

"What about people like me who are playing by the rules, who got a mortgage we could afford?" said Carpenter, 52, who programs building management systems for MIT Lincoln Laboratory. "Maybe I'm too old school, but you sign on the bottom line, and you're responsible for it."

Carpenter is among the vast majority of Americans who work, pay mort gages, borrow responsibly, and now find themselves facing the bill to bail out those who didn't. Over the years they lived within their means. Now they're asking: What for?

The anger underscores the dangers government faces in private sector rescues. While such interventions aim to benefit everyone by preventing severe damage to the economy, they also risk encouraging irresponsible behavior in the future. Economists call this "moral hazard."

In other words, if homeowners believe the government will lower their payments if they fall behind, they won't have as much incentive to keep paying mortgage bills on time.

"We're telling individuals, 'Go ahead, buy a bigger house than you think you can afford because the government is going to bail you out,' " said Dan Mitchell, economist at the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank in Washington. "If you're responsible, if you do the right thing, then you feel like a sucker."

The spending on bailouts and stimulus works out to the equivalent of $11,000 for each of the nation's approximately 160 million tax filers. The total costs, however, are expected to decline when the government sells its bank stakes after the system stabilizes. But most Americans, 67 percent, don't expect this spending to improve their financial positions, according to a CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll conducted last week.

Randy Schmid, 50, of Worcester, is one of them. A self-employed consultant, Schmid and his wife Dominika are renters. They looked into buying a home a few years ago. They hoped to find a house they could afford on a single income, so if one of them lost work, they could still meet their obligations. They didn't.

"If we would have lived beyond our means," he said, "we would have gotten a handout."

At one level, the massive government intervention is aimed only at certain segments of the population. For example, 93 percent of homeowners are up-to-date on their mortgages. Obama's $275 billion housing plan unveiled last week aims to help as many as 9 million homeowners who are facing foreclosure or struggling to pay their mortgage. More than 140 million Americans are working, compared with about 12 million unemployed. The $787 billion stimulus signed into law last week extends unemployment benefits and subsidizes healthcare coverage for the unemployed.

But the hope is that this targeted intervention will stabilize, then lift the economy as a whole. Many economists say foreclosures and unemployment will soar without massive government spending. The economy has slipped into a downward cycle of tightening credit, falling spending, and shrinking demand, resulting in rising layoffs and foreclosures that begin the cycle again.

Nariman Behravesh, chief economist at IHS Global Insight in Lexington, agreed that it is unfair that people who made good decisions pay for those who didn't. But the costs would be much higher without government help to boost demand, create jobs, and stabilize the housing market.

"When you get a situation where the economy is in a free fall, the governments role is to fix the system," Behravesh said. "What's in it for everyone is this great recession doesn't morph into the Great Depression, version 2.0."

At its worst, nearly 1 in 2 first mortgages were in default during the Great Depression and 1 in 4 workers were jobless. Double-digit unemployment rates lasted for more than a decade. The current US unemployment rate is 7.6 percent.

Not all people in trouble now acted irresponsibly. Some just had bad timing.

Leigh Bigger, a case worker with state Department of Youth Services, thought she was helping herself and the neighborhood when she bought a Brockton three-decker for $357,000 in 2004 and kicked out the drug dealer on the first floor.

But when she tried to refinance her adjustable-rate mortgage a year later, her lender decided a three-decker represented too big a risk and balked at giving her a fixed-rate loan. She got one eventually, but at an 8 percent rate that increased her payments to $3,800 a month from $2,800. She then had trouble filling her rental units, and couldn't keep up the mortgage.

She's been trying, without success, to negotiate a lower interest rate with her lender.

"I'm a Christian, God-believing person, whatever happens in my situation, I am going to be OK," said Bigger, 45. "Overall, we do need a sacrifice and bailout to help people. Somehow we have to help people who are keeping neighborhoods intact."

Representative Barney Frank, the Newton Democrat who chairs the House Financial Services Committee, said he understands people's frustrations and expects Congress to pass laws that would prevent errors and abuses that sparked the crisis.

In the meantime, Frank said, government must act to stop the housing slide, which continues to undermine home values, banks, consumer spending and the broader economy.

"You are not going to get us out of this hole until you can deal with this," Frank said. "If enough people do things unwisely and they create a systemic risk, if you say tough, they take the rest of us with them."

Jane Cummings, a 34-year-old software engineer from Hamilton, also has mixed feelings. She said she believes the government needed to do something to help the economy. But she added, "I don't think they should be bailing out people who aren't making good financial decisions. It's not fair, but I think we might have to bite the bullet."

Many others take a harsher view, objecting to the idea of taxpayer money going to help people who borrowed and spent without regard to consequences. "I don't appreciate paying for someone else's mortgage," said Ashling Gowell, 38, a stay-at-home mother who lives in southeastern Massachusetts. "I almost feel its bailing out someone who overspent on their credit card."

Certainly, said Steve Pratt, who co-owns a small healthcare consulting firm, there are people who deserve help, such as those who lost jobs and are struggling to pay mortgages. Unfortunately, said Pratt, 49, of Braintree, the bailouts reward people who were greedy, stupid, or both.

"They're not differentiating the people really in need from the people who took on too much debt and pushed it to the limits of what they could pay," Pratt said. "Personal responsibility got lost. Now, we're all going to pay."

Sadly I think this will soon these people will be the minority because those who love to spend well beyond their means are the ones who control this market...say what you want for predatory lending, but many knew going into it that they couldn't afford these houses and were betting on the market continuing its upswing....my wife and I thought things would go back down eventually which is why we bought a conservative townhouse with a modest mortgage and unfortunately now because we aren't upsidown on our payments we can't take advantage of this bailout and we will be also more than likely be punished by the falling property rates...so much for this administraton caring about the middle class.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
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It's an understandable problem, but of course it still behooves one to not live like an impulsive child. It's not like those who are going to benefit from this plan (and I believe they should not, for the record) will be financially equal to somebody who had; it is in their nature to be financial losers, so even a bailout now will leave them money short in the future.

They are going to get something they do not deserve, but inherent in their lives and future is still an almost definite certainty to be behind the curve.

BTW, the idea that only "responsible" people should be helped is a completely vague misnomer bullsh*t. It's not like houses have randomly been falling apart or a black plague has infested them. Almost everybody currently in foreclosure by its very nature were not responsible; they lacked the savings in place to cover through hardship and/or bought too big a mortgage.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
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This bailout is meant to keep the economy from going further into the crapper, not to reward those who were irresponsible though some of them will benefit from it.

As for being punished by falling property values, did you buy this as an investment? If so you took a risk just like someone playing the Stock Market. One good thing, with your property being worth less than it was when you bought it your property taxes will also be less.
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn
This bailout is meant to keep the economy from going further into the crapper, not to reward those who were irresponsible though some of them will benefit from it.

As for being punished by falling property values, did you buy this as an investment? If so you took a risk just like someone playing the Stock Market. One good thing, with your property being worth less than it was when you bought it your property taxes will also be less.

Investment, no...or I should clarify not as in a quick way to turn a buck, rather I thought it might go up in value slowly especially as I knew I was buying at the peak of the wave....we were just looking for a larger place to live as most apts were smaller and we wanted to own something.

But now I am paying a mortagage that is technically on par with what the place is worth on the books...so even though I am not upside down it still stinks knowing that instead of comming out a little ahead I am either breaking even or going slightly in the hole should I leave .....not a big deal to my bottom line as I can afford it, but in retrospect had I know this was the case I would have gone above my means and went for those new construction places I was looking at in nicer towns as I could have refi'd for a better rate or gotten some kind of handout if I went in the red, plus I wouldn't have had to move as quickly whereas here it is ride it out and pay for private school or move at a loss.

And Skoorb, the thought that anyone irresponsible has benefitted in this deal really rubs me the wrong way.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
Part of what got us into this mess is the shift in thinking regarding housing. People always did look at their homes as an investment. Property values rose slowly over the years as you were paying down your mortgage.

But people also realized that they needed a place to live. It was a very beneficial arrangement for all. You had a roof over your head, the home was going to appreciate in value, the community benefited from your property taxes, etc.

Then came the shift in thinking. Homes became a vehicle for making fast money for the average Joe. It's a chicken and the egg situation. Is it the greedy lenders - yes. Is it the greedy borrowers - yes. Which came first? It doesn't much matter.

To prevent a collapse of our entire financial system (and I'm not sure we're actually going to pull through this), mortgage payers need to be helped out. Where the problem lies, is in determining who to help.

There is no fair way to do this as someone is going to come out on the short end. I think a system of when you purchased, when you refinanced, where your actual residence is (very important), factored in with the potential for you to actually be able to make the payments has to be devised.

We can't be bailing out long term renters that just moved into a home based on bogus criteria.

With 5 million unemployed and more being added every week, determining who can pay their mortgage becomes nearly impossible to do. As is said earlier, I'm not sure we're going to pull out of this with anything that resembles the way of life we're accustomed to.

Everyone is going to have to put their feelings of entitlement on the back burner, and I'm certain there are those that will not be able to do so. If they are in the majority, about all I can say is make sure you've got a lot of ammo.



 

Dman877

Platinum Member
Jan 15, 2004
2,707
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Not a homeowner but have talked to to several and they all say the same thing, despite their houses being worth much less than they were even a few years ago, the towns they live in refuse to re-assess their properties. It's lose-lose for frugal borrowers.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
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Boomerang is right, one way or another this is going to change the landscape in a big way--it already has.
 

ccbadd

Senior member
Jan 19, 2004
456
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76
I really don't like it because I think semi-ethical people may instigate themselves into qualifying for help. I really do believe, however, that anyone who takes money from the government (your neighbors and countrymen actually) for nothing without working for it or honestly planning to paying it back is either a crook or broken and lacks self esteem. If they fit into the second category, we need to help them repair there broken spirit, not pay there mortgage. I don't want help, but I would like for government to leave me the hell alone.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Boomerang is right, one way or another this is going to change the landscape in a big way--it already has.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Boomerang is right, one way or another this is going to change the landscape in a big way--it already has.

Moral hazard has been removed, we are officially a bail out nation.
 

Kwatt

Golden Member
Jan 3, 2000
1,602
12
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Originally posted by: Dman877
Not a homeowner but have talked to to several and they all say the same thing, despite their houses being worth much less than they were even a few years ago, the towns they live in refuse to re-assess their properties. It's lose-lose for frugal borrowers.

BINGO

Not only are they not being reduced. Mine went up and the rate increased!
Although the value went down. Strike that the value is the same it is still home.
It would just be priced lower.


Where did all these lenders come from. I usually finance with a credit union and they have a formula for deciding how much you can afford to pay monthly based on your pay and your other debt. Your pay is verified and if the percentage is to high the conversation is over!!

What idiot lends money without attempting making a real effort to find out if the person has a good probability of being able to pay it back?

And can I get their name and contact information? I'll stand in line for some of that!! If they don't care if it can be repaid. They must not care if it is repaid.







.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
Originally posted by: bozack
Sadly I think this will soon these people will be the minority because those who love to spend well beyond their means are the ones who control this market...say what you want for predatory lending, but many knew going into it that they couldn't afford these houses and were betting on the market continuing its upswing....my wife and I thought things would go back down eventually which is why we bought a conservative townhouse with a modest mortgage and unfortunately now because we aren't upsidown on our payments we can't take advantage of this bailout and we will be also more than likely be punished by the falling property rates...so much for this administraton caring about the middle class.
Why should you get a bailout while I was renting, saving up money for a down payment, waiting for the real estate prices to come back down?
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
What is ironic is that the party who supposedly loves science and embraces evolution runs on a platform that rewards bad judgment and punishes the wise.
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
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Originally posted by: Kwatt
Originally posted by: Dman877
Not a homeowner but have talked to to several and they all say the same thing, despite their houses being worth much less than they were even a few years ago, the towns they live in refuse to re-assess their properties. It's lose-lose for frugal borrowers.

BINGO

Not only are they not being reduced. Mine went up and the rate increased!
Although the value went down. Strike that the value is the same it is still home.
It would just be priced lower.


Where did all these lenders come from. I usually finance with a credit union and they have a formula for deciding how much you can afford to pay monthly based on your pay and your other debt. Your pay is verified and if the percentage is to high the conversation is over!!

What idiot lends money without attempting making a real effort to find out if the person has a good probability of being able to pay it back?

And can I get their name and contact information? I'll stand in line for some of that!! If they don't care if it can be repaid. They must not care if it is repaid.







.

Their plan was always to foreclose on the house when the homeowner stopped making payments. Of course they never planned that the house would be worth 50% of what it was when the money was lent.
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
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Originally posted by: her209

Why should you get a bailout while I was renting, saving up money for a down payment, waiting for the real estate prices to come back down?

Her what am I missing, I clearly said I am not getting a bailout....and there is no honor in renting or buying, it is simply a choice and a matter of needs, if I didn't have a family I would be renting as well but apts typically aren't that big.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Let home values fall. Then, those of us who have been saving up to buy a house for ten years can buy a house at a legitimate price. Hell, I could probably buy four houses. Then I can rent them out to the douchebags that bought them when they were retardedly expensive and I was living in my hellhole rental.
 

Kwatt

Golden Member
Jan 3, 2000
1,602
12
81
Originally posted by:smack Down

Their plan was always to foreclose on the house when the homeowner stopped making payments. Of course they never planned that the house would be worth 50% of what it was when the money was lent.



So it's a case of getting what they wished for? Helping people set themselves up for failure?

FVCK'em let them all go bankrupt then. The banks, the people, the enablers all of them me too if comes down to it. Maybe the replacements won't be so damn greedy and shortsighted.


.


 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
81
Originally posted by: Kwatt
BINGO

Not only are they not being reduced. Mine went up and the rate increased!
Although the value went down. Strike that the value is the same it is still home.
It would just be priced lower.


Where did all these lenders come from. I usually finance with a credit union and they have a formula for deciding how much you can afford to pay monthly based on your pay and your other debt. Your pay is verified and if the percentage is to high the conversation is over!!

What idiot lends money without attempting making a real effort to find out if the person has a good probability of being able to pay it back?

And can I get their name and contact information? I'll stand in line for some of that!! If they don't care if it can be repaid. They must not care if it is repaid.

Right, and because of this, combined with the fact that this liberal haven of a state is leaking money I won't expect any relief at all on the property tax front, if anything it is getting worse and my town is getting serious with adding more fees like metered water (before it was a flat rate for the year)....

 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
81
Originally posted by: bamacre
What is ironic is that the party who supposedly loves science and embraces evolution runs on a platform that rewards bad judgment and punishes the wise.

Yes and clearly the party that is supposedly for the middle class isn't as this will punish those of us who are in that segment and responsible.

It is a joke.
 

Pocatello

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
9,754
2
76
Rewarding those who make bad judgment. Why am I not surprised. That's what we get for sending monkeys to represent us in government.
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
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0
Originally posted by: bozack
Originally posted by: bamacre
What is ironic is that the party who supposedly loves science and embraces evolution runs on a platform that rewards bad judgment and punishes the wise.

Yes and clearly the party that is supposedly for the middle class isn't as this will punish those of us who are in that segment and responsible.

It is a joke.

You're not being punished, you're just being shit on, and there isn't much you can do about it.

I personally have all my liquid assets in cash right now and I think I will go down next week and withdraw it all. I wonder what would happen if everybody who can did that?

 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Heh. Gotta love the whining- "They get something and I don't! Uhh-Waaaahhh!"

Be careful what you wish for... People who end up being eligible for this bailout won't find much relief, bet on that, because it really protects bondholders rather than homeowners. Yeh, it'll look like something on paper, principal reductions and loan extensions, lower rates, blah, blah, blah...

It's still the application of the high hard one, just a little more slowly... Knock something off the original ridiculous purchase price, stretch the payments to 40 years instead of 30, reduce the rate a little- 10 years from today, they'll still be chained to the oars and still have negative equity. Don't count on real estate prices recovering anytime RSN- this whole thing is just going to ease us into reality, the reality that our economy has been looted from the top... that the whole "recovery" of the Bush era has been masterfully contrived.
 

ScottMac

Moderator<br>Networking<br>Elite member
Mar 19, 2001
5,471
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Originally posted by: bozack
Originally posted by: bamacre
What is ironic is that the party who supposedly loves science and embraces evolution runs on a platform that rewards bad judgment and punishes the wise.

Yes and clearly the party that is supposedly for the middle class isn't as this will punish those of us who are in that segment and responsible.

It is a joke.

It's like the "Harrison Bergeron" story by Vonnegut: it's easier to tear down those that do / have done well than to build up those that didn't / won't / haven't (in addition to PC gone wild).
 

quest55720

Golden Member
Nov 3, 2004
1,339
0
0
Originally posted by: nobodyknows
Originally posted by: bozack
Originally posted by: bamacre
What is ironic is that the party who supposedly loves science and embraces evolution runs on a platform that rewards bad judgment and punishes the wise.

Yes and clearly the party that is supposedly for the middle class isn't as this will punish those of us who are in that segment and responsible.

It is a joke.

You're not being punished, you're just being shit on, and there isn't much you can do about it.

I personally have all my liquid assets in cash right now and I think I will go down next week and withdraw it all. I wonder what would happen if everybody who can did that?

If you are under 40 you sure the hell are being punished. It is crap like these bail outs that will keep us from getting SS. We are having thousands of dollars a year stolen from us to pay for this crap. I am against all these bail outs none of them have done any good. Just like porkulus will do this country no good. You can't borrow and spend your way to prosperity. I think bush and company spending like drunken sailors should be proof enough that government spending is no help.