Bailout bill failing in House

[DomS]

We need to make up our fucking minds here. Are we a free market or not? Pick one and stick with it.

 

[DrewSG3]

Dow back down to 630.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: Craig234
What has me concerned right now is the lack of planning I see by either party for the financial system.

I'm wondering if we may be heading to the worst combination - financial problems from the crash of the system, *and* even further consolodiation as the few by the others.

Goldman Sachs the last one standing, Citi and J. P. Morgan acquiring other banks, can we see an even higher concentration of power in Wall Street as the few bigger players are in even more of a monopolistic position to be 'too big to let go out of business' and able to dictate terms?

I'm not seeing an FDR figure who has much of a plan for how to fix both the need for the government to assist with liquidity and to address the systemic issues. Just chaos.

Thats because the most powerful Democrat is INCOMPETENT at her job...

I disagree. She has got a lot of good done. I've wanted her replaced for her caving in to Bush too much, but I recognize she has got a lot done that's blocked by the Senate.

You are quick to blame according to your political orientation, not from what I'm seeing based on the facts.

Maybe with the hundreds-to-one public opposition to this bill a month before every member of Congress is up for election, she did great making the vote so close?

Caving to President Bush? No its more like not being able to get the rest of her party on board.

Pelosi has not managed the House well overall. Sure she has gotten some things passed, but by and large things like today have happened far to often.

It has nothing to do with ideology. Historically speaking she is a piss poor Speaker of the House.

 

[Balt]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: NFS4
HOLY SHIT at Bernie Frank. BURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRN

what? i missed it

He asked for the names of the 12 Representatives who changed their votes because of Pelosi's speech so he could talk nice to them and get their support back.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: DrewSG3
Dow back down to 630.

ugh. 640 now..hate to see how low this goes.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: Stoneburner
Rahm Emannuel is no Tom Delay

Just let it all burn I still say.

Rahm is a son of a bitch who knows how to get shit done. Hes fourth in terms of Power. Hes the chairmen of the Cacucus. He doesnt have the power the three above him does. His job is mainly focused on policy development and election strategy. If he was Speaker I doubt this wouldve happened.

Pelosi has the bloody pulpit. Hoyer is the Whip. They are the ones to blame for the large chuck of Dems voting nay.

Rahm will be the next Speaker of the House.

Do you want members of congress voting how they think is right, or being forced to vote how the leadership wants them to vote, sort of defeatng the point of democracy?

The following are quotes from my Democratic Congressman and from a Republican, who each oppose the bill. How do you suggest the leadership get them to vote yes?

Democratic Rep. Pete Stark of Fremont, a former banker, said he probably will not support it, calling dire warnings of a credit meltdown "grossly overrated."

"I think we are being railroaded in the same manner we were to vote for Iraq," Stark said. "The banks of the Bay Area are in good shape, and they're bailing out Wall Street for $700 billion. It's irresponsible and reckless."

Stark said he has been working to get a third of that sum for universal health care, and that with $15 billion, all Californians could have health insurance.

He attributed at least part of the credit tightening that businesses and consumers are feeling now to the recession that economists believe has begun and the unwinding of easy credit that fed the housing bubble.

"I think people will have more trouble getting a mortgage," Stark said. "Auto dealers are going to have more trouble shedding their inventory, which isn't worth much anyway if it's all SUVs. If we found the whole Bay Area seeing the kinds of foreclosures, say that they have in Stockton, we'd probably react to that. But it's not been that way in Fremont and it's not been that way in Burlingame, or San Francisco. I think that $700 billion would hurt the value of the dollar, which would raise oil prices even further, and probably increase inflation. I think we're rushing this through too quickly."

Rep. Jeff Flake, R-Ariz., said conservatives have been burned by President Bush before on things such as the costly Medicare drug benefit and are in no mood to swallow such a large government intervention in the economy.

"This thing, 'We've got to get this done tomorrow, we can't deviate, it has to be exactly like this,' there were a lot of eyes rolling around the room, saying, 'We've heard this before,' " Flake said.

To many people dont understand how the House works. Thats why there is this thing called bargining. For the House to work and get things done, it requires the majority party to vote in lock step. To get this accomplished leadership offers carrots to its lower ranking members.

And that has - and should have - limited effect. When the Bush administration sells out the public with its big Medicare drug bill giveaway and tells house members to vote for it, they should say no, not say yes to screwing the taxpayer because of carrots. That's called 'corruption' that you're praising so highly.

 

[jalaram]

Granted, I get a delayed quote, but my ticker has the DJIA down 600 now.

 

[compuwiz1]

Let em burn and let the private banks and investors deal with it. There are still the JP Morgan Chase's, Citi and other large banks that will continue to buy the viable institutions. The others aren't worth the powder to blow them to hell and 700B is not enough money. I feel the figure is about 2.5 trillion. :shocked:

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: brandonb

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: brandonb

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: brandonb

Originally posted by: jbourne77


You totally glossed over a question someone else posed to you: What happens when 95% of all potential car buyers cannot get loans? Mortgagees? Business expansion? Student loans?

I don't think people really understand the potential impact here.

I guess the banks will have to learn to adapt, like everybody else.

What type of job do you have?

I'm a software engineer at a company that does multiple things:

call center services
bill collection
billing services
and legal needs in said industries.

So you don't think this will affect you?

Why would it? The sky isn't falling. A few shady banks closed that banked on sub prime loans and got bit in the ass. Thats what happens when you lend to people who have bad credit. The credit card companies BANK on the idea that people don't pay their bills, they write it off on taxes, and they still collect money by harrassing said person for 15 years and eventually get their money back anyhow with a small commission to the bill collecting company. Why is it any different with mortgages and these banks? =)

People like this are why democracy = fail.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: hellokeith
133 house republicans and 99 house democrats voted against the bailout bill. Silly and uninformed partisanship to blame one party.

While I don't want to see a depression, I share the general suspicion that most of America has about the government socializing wall street with taxpayer money.

Heh. At least when the republicans were in power and we had a "crisis", they responded with a shitty bill and got it passed (mostly because the dims were too cowardly to take a stand).

Now the spineless dims are in power and can't get jack done and we have a real crisis. Sorry, but if they can't get some kind of legislation passed to address this crisis, then the blame falls as much on the dems, as it did on the repubs for going into iraq.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: RichardE
[There is expanding a business and installing latte and mocha machines. As I said, it is for frivolous upgrades.

Either way McDonalds was put on a leash. McEffingDonalds. That doesnt bode will for the rest of corporate America.

I understand that point, though you are making it out bigger than it is. It isnt a piece of "McDonald lost its credit line today to make payroll and order payments blah blah blah", it is, "McDonalds was told that it can't get a loan for upgrades to its reaturent from its bank which is going through a massive merger and probally doesn't have half an idea wtf it is exposed too"

The problem is that people keep thinking that wealthy people are all part of some group that sits around patting each other on the back smoking cigars and drinking scotch. People didn't become succesfull without playing this game, and even though its McDonalds there are still bean counters going "I wonder, in this period of time when all my accounting friends from school are jobless is it a good idea to give McDonalds some loands for coffee and latte machines when we could use that money to back to X amount of potentially failed mortages?, nah not a good investment".

When Mcdonalds are Walmart lose all credit sources than you can worry, as it is now, they are just loosing uneeded funding.

 

[Mean MrMustard]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: DrewSG3
For the first time I'm proud of my Congress

Because they just hurt the economy tremendously?

Congress isn't responsible. Place the blame correctly.

Congress was responsible in the first place and the last.

For deregulating? Deregulation (freedom) is good. That just gives you the choice. That doesn't mean you should. What happened is very bad business decisions. Blaming the gov't for 'letting' you do it does not put the blame on them.

The common people are to blame as well... trying to buy something they can't afford. The impending economic downturn forces people (and businesses) to be responsible for themselves. This is how the market corrects itself. (Obviously)

Is it going to suck? Yes, very much. In a free market economy failure must be allowed just as success is.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: senseamp
Looks like GOP is on a suicide course.

Nope. Pelosi is.

I say that because today marks the day that finishes her in terms of remaining Speaker of the House during the 111th Congress.

Pelosi has been the most inept House Speaker in the modern era. She has time and time again failed to get the support needed before bringing a bill the the floor. She has embarrassed herself and her party one to many times. Sure blame the GOP for this. But its really poor management of the House. The Dems have a commanding majority in the House. If she had done her job this bill would not have failed. Her ineptness let this bill fail.

Good luck with that argument when the "My (Republican) opponent voted against this economic recovery bill" ads start rolling.

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: NFS4
HOLY SHIT at Bernie Frank. BURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRN

what? i missed it

Sorry, I meant to say Barney Frank.

Basically, the House Minority Leader got up and said that the republicans didn't vote for the bill because Pelosi gave a partisan speech -- so they bolted.

A reporter asked Pelosi to speak on comments from Boehner sp? and Barney Frank took over and said "I'd like to respond to that"

He basically said that the Republicans were fools for getting butthurt over some words and that they shouldn't have let harsh words get in the way of helping the entire country.

He then proceeded to ask for the names of the 12 republicans that voted no -- he said that he would meet with them all and give them uncharacteristly nice complements to which the gallery burst into laughter

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: OptimisTech

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: OptimisTech
Oh, and for those of you on monthly pay cycles, there is a REAL chance you will not get a check tomorrow.

:roll: What scare tactic email did you buy into?

Read a book. 90% of businesses use short-term loans to meet payroll every month. If the credit markets seize (which they almost surely will now.) they won't be getting those loans. If you were lucky enough to have payroll processed already, you'll get paid. If not, be ready. Did you really think you were invulnerable to this and you could ignore it?

Then those businesses can get a loan from Bank of Am, Chase, Citi, Wells, or any other bank that will be fine. What's that you say? Their credit rating sucks? Too bad.

Fool, they won't be lending. NOBODY is lending. Are you too dense to understand that? Their capital base is so depleated that they are only floating along too.

What the hell are you talking about? Since when can't a small business get a loan from any of those companies? Put up or shut up.

Will you shut-up now? http://www.boston.com/business...rash_course_in_credit/

If you kept up with the news, you would know that banks have been decreasing/eliminating home equity lines to home owners and lines of credit to small business owners for some time.

No way! You mean banks are tightening now due to the subprime crisis? Nobody said they weren't, but there is no proof that the large banks who are doing fine are denying small businesses loans (someone linked BoA denial to McD's but that was warranted, see link in my previous post). There is a difference between tightening and outright denial of a loan.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: bl4ckfl4g
Lol Bernie Frank basically said this. Paraphrased.

Republicans decided that si nce their feelings got hurt, they'll punish the country.

Bernie said, give me the names of the 12 people and I will go talk uncharacteristically nice about them so they will feel better and vote yes.

You must mean Barney Frank?

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: DomS
We need to make up our fucking minds here. Are we a free market or not? Pick one and stick with it.

we're not.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: Balt

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: NFS4
HOLY SHIT at Bernie Frank. BURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRN

what? i missed it

He asked for the names of the 12 Representatives who changed their votes because of Pelosi's speech so he could talk nice to them and get their support back.

He should shut his yap and talk to members of his own party. Hes just grandstanding. Thats all hes good for.

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: GTKeeper

Originally posted by: jbourne77
I predict a Daschle-like exit by Pelosi in November.

I can't stand Pelosi. The Dems need one of the Blue Dogs to be Speaker to actually get shit done.

Pelosi decided she was going to make the Republicans eat their lunch to get this passed, and figured if they resisted, they'll go down in flames for it. Shame on her opportunistic ass for pulling such a disgusting stunt, and shame on the Republican asshats for letting themselves get goaded in by such malice.

 

[GTKeeper]

Originally posted by: brandonb

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: brandonb

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: brandonb

Originally posted by: jbourne77


You totally glossed over a question someone else posed to you: What happens when 95% of all potential car buyers cannot get loans? Mortgagees? Business expansion? Student loans?

I don't think people really understand the potential impact here.

I guess the banks will have to learn to adapt, like everybody else.

What type of job do you have?

I'm a software engineer at a company that does multiple things:

call center services
bill collection
billing services
and legal needs in said industries.

So you don't think this will affect you?

Why would it? The sky isn't falling. A few shady banks closed that banked on sub prime loans and got bit in the ass. Thats what happens when you lend to people who have bad credit. The credit card companies BANK on the idea that people don't pay their bills, they write it off on taxes, and they still collect money by harrassing said person for 15 years and eventually get their money back anyhow with a small commission to the bill collecting company. Why is it any different with mortgages and these banks? =)

Let me try to explain this in idiot terms to idiot #2.

What you cite is such a mind boggling over simplification it really just makes me sad for you when you are left without a job.

Here is how bad things are:

Imagine going to Bear Stearns shortly before the collapse..... looking at 2 billion dollars of assets on the books ..... AND NO ONE CAN EVEN TELL YOU WHAT THE FUCK IT IS. 2 billion dollars that means NOTHING and cannot even be explained. (and that is just one example)

This is EXACTLY what happend when the Fed went in there to even consider bailing Bear Stearns out.

Now do you get it?

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: Stoneburner
Rahm Emannuel is no Tom Delay

Just let it all burn I still say.

Rahm is a son of a bitch who knows how to get shit done. Hes fourth in terms of Power. Hes the chairmen of the Cacucus. He doesnt have the power the three above him does. His job is mainly focused on policy development and election strategy. If he was Speaker I doubt this wouldve happened.

Pelosi has the bloody pulpit. Hoyer is the Whip. They are the ones to blame for the large chuck of Dems voting nay.

Rahm will be the next Speaker of the House.

Do you want members of congress voting how they think is right, or being forced to vote how the leadership wants them to vote, sort of defeatng the point of democracy?

The following are quotes from my Democratic Congressman and from a Republican, who each oppose the bill. How do you suggest the leadership get them to vote yes?

Democratic Rep. Pete Stark of Fremont, a former banker, said he probably will not support it, calling dire warnings of a credit meltdown "grossly overrated."

"I think we are being railroaded in the same manner we were to vote for Iraq," Stark said. "The banks of the Bay Area are in good shape, and they're bailing out Wall Street for $700 billion. It's irresponsible and reckless."

Stark said he has been working to get a third of that sum for universal health care, and that with $15 billion, all Californians could have health insurance.

He attributed at least part of the credit tightening that businesses and consumers are feeling now to the recession that economists believe has begun and the unwinding of easy credit that fed the housing bubble.

"I think people will have more trouble getting a mortgage," Stark said. "Auto dealers are going to have more trouble shedding their inventory, which isn't worth much anyway if it's all SUVs. If we found the whole Bay Area seeing the kinds of foreclosures, say that they have in Stockton, we'd probably react to that. But it's not been that way in Fremont and it's not been that way in Burlingame, or San Francisco. I think that $700 billion would hurt the value of the dollar, which would raise oil prices even further, and probably increase inflation. I think we're rushing this through too quickly."

Rep. Jeff Flake, R-Ariz., said conservatives have been burned by President Bush before on things such as the costly Medicare drug benefit and are in no mood to swallow such a large government intervention in the economy.

"This thing, 'We've got to get this done tomorrow, we can't deviate, it has to be exactly like this,' there were a lot of eyes rolling around the room, saying, 'We've heard this before,' " Flake said.

To many people dont understand how the House works. Thats why there is this thing called bargining. For the House to work and get things done, it requires the majority party to vote in lock step. To get this accomplished leadership offers carrots to its lower ranking members.

And that has - and should have - limited effect. When the Bush administration sells out the public with its big Medicare drug bill giveaway and tells house members to vote for it, they should say no, not say yes to screwing the taxpayer because of carrots. That's called 'corruption' that you're praising so highly.

Its not corruption. Its how Congress has worked since the inception of political parties.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: ohnoes

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Nobody is saying that lending hasn't been curtailed/tightened. And please tell us how another Great Depression will occur, this should be interesting.

Then you admit that there is a _real_ chance of businesses not being able to make payroll/expenses, which was your original point of contention.

No, my original point is that loans from the major banks who are doing fine (e.g. Wells, BoA, Chase, HSBC) aren't going deny them to small businesses who actually deserve them.

 

[waggy]

i don't think the people running this country really know what the fuck they are doing. i really think they are out of touch with reality.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: DomS
We need to make up our fucking minds here. Are we a free market or not? Pick one and stick with it.

Actually trying to apply some ideology dogmatically I think is the worst thing.

Sure, I'm against selective ideology for corrupt reasons - 'free market' means you get screwed but forget that when the big cats need help - but not when it's for the right reason.

I'm more interested in what's the right solution here, and screw the ideology, I don't care if it's 'free market laissez faire' or socialist, if it's effective and good for the nation.

 

[rise]

Originally posted by: jbourne77

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: jbourne77
What exactly did Pelosi say? I reserve my comments on R vs D until I hear exactly what happened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey3ZlsmIkz4

:Q

She should be hanged and quartered for that kind of grandstanding. Again, the R's hands aren't clean by any stretch of the imagination, but WTF!!!

jeez, like that was what we need now. what a dumbasss.