• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

"Baghdad will be near impossible to conquer"

KK

Lifer
Jan 2, 2001
15,902
4
81
It'll be pretty tough, that's for sure. Good thing we got Basrah to practice on. That'll give the troops an idea on what to expect.

KK
 

mastertech01

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Nov 13, 1999
11,631
0
76
Originally posted by: KK
It'll be pretty tough, that's for sure. Good thing we got Basrah to practice on. That'll give the troops an idea on what to expect.

KK

I think the brits have gained most of that experience, but Im confident our TeAm has a plan in the works.
 

Bleep

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
3,972
0
0
From what I have seen on the TV the Brits are great soldiers and no one can discount there bravery, I dont know how well equiped they are but other than the bad uniforms and boots they have done one hell of a job. My hat is off to them. England should be very proud of their troops.
Bleep
 

mastertech01

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Nov 13, 1999
11,631
0
76
Originally posted by: Bleep
From what I have seen on the TV the Brits are great soldiers and no one can discount there bravery, I dont know how well equiped they are but other than the bad uniforms and boots they have done one hell of a job. My hat is off to them. England should be very proud of their troops.
Bleep
Ditto, I have the greatest regard for what they have done. They are truly great partners in this effort and their sacrifices will be remembered!

 

sMiLeYz

Platinum Member
Feb 3, 2003
2,689
0
76
Originally posted by: mastertech01
Originally posted by: Bleep
From what I have seen on the TV the Brits are great soldiers and no one can discount there bravery, I dont know how well equiped they are but other than the bad uniforms and boots they have done one hell of a job. My hat is off to them. England should be very proud of their troops.
Bleep
Ditto, I have the greatest regard for what they have done. They are truly great partners in this effort and their sacrifices will be remembered!
Yeah if only we could stop keep killing one or two of them ourselves. :)
 

Bleep

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
3,972
0
0
Yeah if only we could stop keep killing one or two of them ourselves.:)
Is the smiley in your post to say you are happy we killed a few of them?

Bleep
 

RossGr

Diamond Member
Jan 11, 2000
3,383
1
0
The thought of urban combat in Baghdad is indeed horrifying, but the way things are unfolding, by the time the Republican Guard is defeated the Hi Tech 4th ID will be on the scene. Perhaps this is the job they will take the lead on. It is very important to remember the historic campaigns, such as Napoleon, Hitler and others. Each of these historic events contains lessons. I have confidence in our system to have LEARNED the lessons history has to offer.

The naysayers have cried about our vulnerable supply lines, but that is a well known weakness of Blitzkrieg warfare. The question is how do you attack the weakness? It appears that the Iraqi guerilla tactics have failed, they needed to take a lesson from Patton at the Battle of the Bulge, The way to attack weak flanks is with an Armored Corps, not a foot soldier with an Ak47. Currently the forward units are well supplied and on the attack, while the slower foot sloggers coming up the rear are cleaning up the piddling forces that the Iraqis are attempting to use against us. Remember as suicide bomber can only attack once then he is spent. Suicide bombers could not defeat us in WWII and they will not in Iraqi.

Currently the south is being won, when the last Baathist is rooted out and the food and water are restored along with power and other creature comforts do you not suppose the populace of Baghdad will not reconsider? When they learn that there is a region free of the influence of Soddam perhaps they will begin to have second thoughts. I think a safe region where we can make clear our intend to liberate and not conquer is essential, that appears to be very near in the south.

This is of course the best possible outcome, but it is clear from Bashra that we can win at Urban warfare. How ever it is accomplished if the Coalition can pull this off it will go down in history has one of the greatest Campaigns ever fought. I have no doubt that we can win every military objective, I am concerned that we will lose the war of public opinion, but again a liberated Iraqi people may ask some embarrassing questions of their Arab neighbors once Soddam is gone and they have recovered, might not they start wondering why their neighbors were supporting Soddam and NOT the Iraqi people. That could be very interesting.
 

Morph

Banned
Oct 14, 1999
747
0
0

jaeger66

Banned
Jan 1, 2001
3,852
0
0
Originally posted by: RossGr
The thought of urban combat in Baghdad is indeed horrifying, but the way things are unfolding, by the time the Republican Guard is defeated the Hi Tech 4th ID will be on the scene. Perhaps this is the job they will take the lead on. It is very important to remember the historic campaigns, such as Napoleon, Hitler and others. Each of these historic events contains lessons. I have confidence in our system to have LEARNED the lessons history has to offer.
I am afraid that the American military's infatuation with gee-whiz technology has caused them to ignore those lessons. They will need to enter the city, and when they do much of that technology will be negated.
 

AAjax

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2001
3,798
0
0
Hmmm, I dont know what the author of this article has been smoking

"An astonishing event is about to happen. For the first time in modern history a city with the population of London is preparing to resist assault from a land army"

Well I could count off the numerous cities that have been laid siege to, Berlin, Bejing, Stalingrad, Paris (gosh a whole mess of times) Rome, Cairo, ect

I would hardly say its the first time its happened (though certainly the results can be mixed)
 

RossGr

Diamond Member
Jan 11, 2000
3,383
1
0
I am afraid that the American military's infatuation with gee-whiz technology has caused them to ignore those lessons. They will need to enter the city, and when they do much of that technology will be negated.
Perhaps.

Perhaps the experiences that the Coalition forces have had have prepared them better then you give them credit. Perhaps, it is the Iraqis who will respond in predictable ways, not the Coalition forces. After all who has had real city fighting experiance and who has rethoric and little else? Actually the type of technology the 4th ID will bring to the field seems amazingly suited to city warfare. This should be interesting, but most likely not bloodless.

So far in this war the Coalition forces have yet to behave in a predicticable manner. Can you honestly say that you were not expecting a repeat of the '91 war, starting with a month of bombing followed by the ground assult? I'll bet that is what the Iraqis were planning on, now they have an army at the door of Baghdad. Then once the army was there and were seeming to settle in and perhaps now begins the extended airal bombardment, but no, As we write the army is picking the Republician Guard apart.

I would say that you should learn to expect the unexpected from this war, so far, from what I can see, the Iraqis have been out manuverd at every turn. Why should we expect that to change?

Really it would be much better for everyone involved if we did not have to engage in a city fight, but do not believe for a second that the US high command did not see that as a possiblility, there made plans for how it will be executed. These guys are not idiots, why does everyone seem to make that assumption? The beauty part is, the less people know of our army and modern warfare the more they monday morning quarterback.

I consider myself better then average read in the history and even some theory of warfare (considering that I have no desire to engage in it personally this may be a bit unusual). I am in awe of what our forces have done and how they have accomplished it. This could will be considered the absolute epotimy of armored warefare. History is being made, the military outcome is certian, the political outcome?? now that is a completly different story. That is the part that has me scared.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,607
3
76
Actually the Iraqis were allowed to flow freely in trucks because neither the Americans or British saw them as anything but civilians. Like the retired General (working for MSNBC I think it was) said in his spiel last night, "...I was shocked to hear that when Iraqi trucks would pass our lines they'd wave because they knew they were safe. Well..." (switching to a big grin) "Notice they don't wave anymore!" He created the impression that the coalition has adjusted tit for tat with the Iraqis and now the latter is running scared.

The approach to Baghdad is more dangerous now that previous fighting. The Iraqi artillery and landmine trap has been a greater threat to our tanks, historically, than the Iraqi soldier has ever been in direct combat. Its much easier to set up traps around roads and then to fire on tanks with artillery as they become ensnared. If the tank leaves the road it is disabled. If it stays on the road its disabled. We can only assume that the Iraqis have been adjusting to every move and losses on both sides should somewhat accellerate now if conventional wisdom holds true.

I guess it should take them a week to surround Baghdad. Once Baghdad is under siege the war will drag on but in all reality its over for Saddam and the Ba`ath party.
 

jaeger66

Banned
Jan 1, 2001
3,852
0
0
Originally posted by: MadRat


I guess it should take them a week to surround Baghdad. Once Baghdad is under siege the war will drag on but in all reality its over for Saddam and the Ba`ath party.
The coalition will not lay siege to the city. It won't do to starve the Iraquis while saying you're "liberating" them. They have no choice but to go in and clean up the mess one block at a time.
 

jaeger66

Banned
Jan 1, 2001
3,852
0
0
Originally posted by: RossGr


I would say that you should learn to expect the unexpected from this war, so far, from what I can see, the Iraqis have been out manuverd at every turn. Why should we expect that to change?
As one of the generals on CNN put it, when you plan a war you plan for the worst case scenario that is still within the realm of possibility. In his opinion, the coalition did not do that. They thought the Iraqis with throw down their weapons, open their arms to us, and that the regime would just collapse. Well, that didn't happen. And once we enter Baghdad it will come down to good old fashioned hand to hand combat. And the Iraqis will not be bound by any of our political concerns.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
2
0
No soldiers are more skilled at urban fighting than the British. Yet they are finding it hard to pacify even ?friendly? Basra.

That quote from the article just gets on my nerves. We're not even two weeks into the fighting yet and less than that in Basra, itself.


Guess the Brits should have just mowed everything and everyone down to 'take' the town to appease the moronic press.
 

jjones

Lifer
Oct 9, 2001
15,430
1
0
The writer of that article is an idiot in ways more numerous than I can explain but here's a simple example:
But history says Baghdad will fall from an act of politics or treachery, not an act of war.
There would be no acts of politics or treachery without acts of war.
 

FuzzyBee

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2000
5,172
1
76
In the past two weeks I must have seen a hundred maps, diagrams, military handouts and computer graphics. I have watched men in fatigues with whizz-bang videos of soaring missiles and exploding tanks. Each explains how war is won in the open. Not one explained how Baghdad is to be defeated.
I can see the Centcom guys asking "OK, which of you guys would like to see the actual battle plans for what we're going to be doing? Anyone?"

Idiot.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,607
3
76
Originally posted by: jaeger66
Originally posted by: MadRat


I guess it should take them a week to surround Baghdad. Once Baghdad is under siege the war will drag on but in all reality its over for Saddam and the Ba`ath party.
The coalition will not lay siege to the city. It won't do to starve the Iraquis while saying you're "liberating" them. They have no choice but to go in and clean up the mess one block at a time.
That is a siege.

 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,294
1
76
I have a feeling that we might have some unconventional plans for the liberation of Baghdad and that it won't take as long as some estimate.

I'm more concerned that the Iraqi leadership might get out of Baghdad and it will take a lot of time to finally corral them.
 

TheNinja

Lifer
Jan 22, 2003
12,207
1
0
Originally posted by: jaeger66
Originally posted by: RossGr


I would say that you should learn to expect the unexpected from this war, so far, from what I can see, the Iraqis have been out manuverd at every turn. Why should we expect that to change?
As one of the generals on CNN put it, when you plan a war you plan for the worst case scenario that is still within the realm of possibility. In his opinion, the coalition did not do that. They thought the Iraqis with throw down their weapons, open their arms to us, and that the regime would just collapse. Well, that didn't happen. And once we enter Baghdad it will come down to good old fashioned hand to hand combat. And the Iraqis will not be bound by any of our political concerns.
Just exactly WHO thought that the Iraqis would throw down their weapons? I surely didn't and I highly doubt that the planners of this war do not have a plan in place since this did not happen. Maybe the media tried to tell us that the Iraqis would give up and open their arms but I seriously doubt that Franks and the rest of the people are stunned and confused now that it didn't happen. None of us really know what the original plans and expectations were. That being said, I agree it will come down to hand to hand city fighting unless the US has something up their sleeves.

 

ASK THE COMMUNITY