bad situation. but i feel the parents are in the wrong

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waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
Originally posted by: AMDZen
Originally posted by: waggy
the child is in a lot of pain. he is being given morphine. they don't give that out unless it is needed.

I apologize somehow i missed that. Sixone's argument seemed valid though, it seemed to me like the doctors were contradicting themselves. First they said the child doesn't respond to anything, the mother argues that he does and moves to people's voice's - and then the doctors reverse their position and say that he feels pain and needs morphine? Which is it?

Anyway, as I said - as a parent if they could prove that he was in pain I'd let him go. I'd let him go any way, I just wouldn't want to be forced. But I'm not them


they are not being forced to kill him. the hospital is saying there is nothing more we can do so either pull the plug or move him to a diffrent hospital.

granted that is splitting hairs.

oh and as stated things can still feel pain yet have no higher brain functions.
 

Mxylplyx

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2007
4,197
101
106
If she is capable of paying for it, let her call the shots and string it out as long as she wants. If the taxpayers or insurance is paying for it, she should have to come to terms with the inevitable. The money being spent could be used to help many more children that actually have a chance of recovery.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
Originally posted by: waggy
Originally posted by: Luthien
Along this same note I believe that euthanasia should be legal. The only reason it isn't is because of the religious threat of hell as well as a reasonable fear it could by abused. If I was lying in bed suffering from cancer and the outcome is determined and morphine can no longer control my pain I would like the right to end myself. Prisoners put to death with injections in the USA have an easier end than 99.9% of the rest of do.

hell. you wouldnt beleive how hard it is for chronic pain patients. many can NOT get the medication needed to control pain. To many doctors and such are afriad to give such high nrcotics out. So many suffer in pain.


Agreed. My mother in-law has severe back issues that are so bad she can't find a surgeon who will even operate on her. Even though its not debatable that she has a sever chronic pain issue it is difficult for her to find a doctor that is willing to keep giving her pain medication because of DEA scrutiny. She has even ordered medication from overseas out of pure desperation before. Its sad that a person, with good medical insurance mind you, has to resort to gambling with medication from overseas just to get some pain relief.
 

Ronstang

Lifer
Jul 8, 2000
12,493
18
81
Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
If she is capable of paying for it, let her call the shots and string it out as long as she wants. If the taxpayers or insurance is paying for it, she should have to come to terms with the inevitable. The money being spent could be used to help many more children that actually have a chance of recovery.

Bingo. She needs to whip out the checkbook or reconcile with her god.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
Originally posted by: Darwin333
Originally posted by: waggy
Originally posted by: Luthien
Along this same note I believe that euthanasia should be legal. The only reason it isn't is because of the religious threat of hell as well as a reasonable fear it could by abused. If I was lying in bed suffering from cancer and the outcome is determined and morphine can no longer control my pain I would like the right to end myself. Prisoners put to death with injections in the USA have an easier end than 99.9% of the rest of do.

hell. you wouldnt beleive how hard it is for chronic pain patients. many can NOT get the medication needed to control pain. To many doctors and such are afriad to give such high nrcotics out. So many suffer in pain.


Agreed. My mother in-law has severe back issues that are so bad she can't find a surgeon who will even operate on her. Even though its not debatable that she has a sever chronic pain issue it is difficult for her to find a doctor that is willing to keep giving her pain medication because of DEA scrutiny. She has even ordered medication from overseas out of pure desperation before. Its sad that a person, with good medical insurance mind you, has to resort to gambling with medication from overseas just to get some pain relief.

yeap. some of the things those with chronic pain have to go through to get releif is insane. one guy got arrested for buying and transporting pills into florida.

As you said DEA scrutiny makes it harder. they placed a limit on how much a person can get. Its far lower then a person with CP needs.
 

KarenMarie

Elite Member
Sep 20, 2003
14,372
6
81
this is a tough call.

if it were my kid, i would be caught in the middle between doing the right thing for the kid and wanting to keep her around for as long as possible.

but if the kid is truly suffering, i would hope there would be cooler, more rational heads to prevail... to prevent me from being selfish.
 

Luthien

Golden Member
Feb 1, 2004
1,721
0
0
Originally posted by: waggy
Originally posted by: Luthien
Along this same note I believe that euthanasia should be legal. The only reason it isn't is because of the religious threat of hell as well as a reasonable fear it could by abused. If I was lying in bed suffering from cancer and the outcome is determined and morphine can no longer control my pain I would like the right to end myself. Prisoners put to death with injections in the USA have an easier end than 99.9% of the rest of do.

hell. you wouldnt beleive how hard it is for chronic pain patients. many can NOT get the medication needed to control pain. To many doctors and such are afriad to give such high nrcotics out. So many suffer in pain.

Oh, I do believe it I have an MD in the family as well as some education on the subject. I am certain great travesties are occuring right now on that score. My relative struggles with it every single day. What I mean by that is that she has to weed out the drug abusers from the real pain sufferers to protect herself from getting sued out of her job, life, license. It is a horrible quandry and something that can affect most people especially the poor who cannot really stand up for themselves.
 

TheSource

Senior member
Nov 20, 2003
541
0
0
Originally posted by: waggy

yeap. some of the things those with chronic pain have to go through to get releif is insane. one guy got arrested for buying and transporting pills into florida.

As you said DEA scrutiny makes it harder. they placed a limit on how much a person can get. Its far lower then a person with CP needs.


americas drug war affects alot more people than meets the eye :thumbsdown:
 

DangerAardvark

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2004
7,559
0
0
I usually scoff at slippery slope arguments, but a hospital's right to withhold care is a sensitive area. That one really is a slippery slope.
 

Geekbabe

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 16, 1999
32,229
2,539
126
www.theshoppinqueen.com
good lord, 22 yrs old and already living thru the greatest heartbreak a person could probably ever experience..

my heart goes out to that young mother :(
 

preCRT

Platinum Member
Apr 12, 2000
2,340
123
106
Follow up to the OP:


5-21-2007

Emilio Gonzales Dies of Natural Causes
by Wendy Cloyd, assistant editor

Family's fight for boy's right to life gained national spotlight.

The Texas toddler whose fight for life brought national attention to end-of-life care died of natural causes Saturday in the arms of his mother.

Elizabeth Graham, director of Texas Right to Life, said doctors did not withdraw treatment.

"His brain quit working, and his body gave up," she said.

Over the last week, Graham added, Emilio Gonzales' brain tissue had quickly deteriorated, triggering an increase in seizures.

"On Saturday he was having trouble breathing and his symptoms were much worse. A staff member told his mother, Catarina, she might want to make some calls," Graham said. "He died around 7 p.m. Saturday."

Emilio Gonzales suffered from Leigh's disease, which caused the degeneration of his central nervous system. In March, an ethics panel at Brackenridge Children's Hospital in Austin deemed Emilio?s life "futile" and told his mother it planned to take him off life-saving treatment.

Though Catarina Gonzales knew her son would eventually die, she fought for doctors to recognize the value of his life and to give him the best care possible.

In April, she told Fox News, "He may not live that long, but that's nobody's choice. That's my choice. And that's God's choice. Nobody can say, 'We're going to take him off, that's it.' "
...

http://www.citizenlink.org/CLNews/A000004676.cfm

Should cost be a factor in a case like Emilio's, which exceeded $1.6 million?
Medical ethicists expect cost to be an issue more and more as boomers age and health care resources become scarcer.

By Mary Ann Roser
AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF
Monday, May 28, 2007

Doctors who wanted to end life support for 18-month-old Emilio Gonzales at Children's Hospital of Austin said their concerns were about stopping his suffering ? not about the cost.

But by the time he died May 19, after 142 days in the intensive care unit, Emilio's hospital bill had reached $1.68 million. Some callers to a hot line the hospital established to handle a flood of Emilio-related calls and bloggers wondered about the cost of treating a patient who had no hope of recovery.

Because there was no hope for Emilio, "why don't we spend our money for children who can get better?" Vera Preston-Jaeger, a retired math professor who lives in Bastrop, asked in an interview.

Medical ethicists around the country said that even though physicians and politicians are squeamish about mingling discussions of money and end-of-life care, they expect those debates to only intensify as baby boomers age, health care resources become more scarce and cases like Emilio's capture headlines.

"Emilio Gonzales would be a very, very good example" in the ongoing debate, said Dr. Robert Fine, director of the Office of Clinical Ethics at the Baylor Health Care System. "He spent almost six months on a mechanical ventilator. Did he recover? No. Did it do him any better? No."...

...Medicare, which insures about 80 percent of Americans at the end of life, spends 28 percent of its dollars on the last year of life and 14 percent of its dollars on the last two months, Fine said. Medicare also sets the pace for what services private insurers will cover.

To some extent, Medicare and other insurers already ration care, he and others said. Some costly procedures are branded "experimental" and refused for coverage. Some health plans won't cover transplants, and most set lifetime dollar limits on how much they will pay out, ending coverage once a person hits the limit....

...When doctors wanted to stop treating Emilio, who was born blind and deaf and was later diagnosed with a terminal illness that destroyed his central nervous system, the ethics committee at Children's Hospital initially decided to continue treating him.

But in February, the committee agreed with doctors that it was time to stop and gave Catarina Gonzales, his 23-year-old mother, 10 days to find another hospital for Emilio. The committee, and later a judge, extended the time as Gonzales fought to keep him on a respirator and looked unsuccessfully for another facility that would treat him. The hospital and doctors said the cost of Emilio's treatment was never part of the discussion.

Emilio's care was covered by Medicaid and Supplemental Security Income, and the hospital expects to collect $389,000 of what it billed because of low reimbursements under the program, said Michael Regier, general counsel for the Seton Family of Hospitals, which runs Children's Hospital....

http://www.statesman.com/news/...al/05/28/28emilio.html






I feel sorry for the mother, but that child had no hope for recovery, endured repeated seizures and useless procedures. The hospital was forced to eat the cost because it wasn't covered by even Medicaid. That means less money to cover equipment & costs for other patients who could recover, and could benefit.
 

totalcommand

Platinum Member
Apr 21, 2004
2,487
0
0
Originally posted by: dullard
I agree with you, Waggy.

I see it over and over again. People will torture their loved ones who have no chance of any quality life just to delay the inevitable. They aren't curing the person, they aren't giving the person quality life, they aren't doing anything beneficial other than delaying their own pain. That has to be one of the most selfish acts that we have in today's society.

Plus, they are idiots because they aren't looking at the big picture. Their lives are on hold until they let this boy die. They can finally leave the hospital, they can finally leave the city, they can finally move on and start a new family (adopted). They aren't letting themselves heal. Instead, they are constantly picking at the open wound just to delay the healing process.

Stop torturing your boy and let him get some peace. It'll probably be the first peace he has ever felt. Letting him go is the best thing they can do for thier son. Thank God for that law and a reasonable hospital.

I agree. This is a completely selfish decision on the part of the parents. They can't let go, so they decide to torture their kid.

Several weeks ago one of my family members was in a similar state, and another family member did everything in his power, against the wishes of me and others, to keep the suffering man alive. It was disgustingly selfish, and I will probably never forgive him for the way he acted.
 

totalcommand

Platinum Member
Apr 21, 2004
2,487
0
0
Originally posted by: sixone
Originally posted by: waggy
yes they need to deel with the loss. but it is going ot take years for that to happen. should the child be on the machine the whole time? If you believe in the afterlife why keep the child in limbo? let him continue on with his journey.

on a more releastic side. it is the taxpayers that are footing this bill. should htey continue to pay for this so the parents feel better? the hospital has limited resources. they are being wasted on a case that has no hope of ever getting better.

sometimes a greiving reletive is not the one that s hould be makeing the choice. just look at the shivo case.

I don't give a flying flip about the money. I care about the living. You make it sound like you care more about the taxpayers footing the bill than you do the parents who are with this child every day. Don't they deserve some compassion and understanding?

The parents deserve nothing of the sort. They need to let go for the sake of their kid. He has zero chance of survival, and now they are just prolonging his suffering.
 

preCRT

Platinum Member
Apr 12, 2000
2,340
123
106
Originally posted by: totalcommand
Originally posted by: sixone
Originally posted by: waggy
yes they need to deel with the loss. but it is going ot take years for that to happen. should the child be on the machine the whole time? If you believe in the afterlife why keep the child in limbo? let him continue on with his journey.

on a more releastic side. it is the taxpayers that are footing this bill. should htey continue to pay for this so the parents feel better? the hospital has limited resources. they are being wasted on a case that has no hope of ever getting better.

sometimes a greiving reletive is not the one that s hould be makeing the choice. just look at the shivo case.

I don't give a flying flip about the money. I care about the living. You make it sound like you care more about the taxpayers footing the bill than you do the parents who are with this child every day. Don't they deserve some compassion and understanding?

The parents deserve nothing of the sort. They need to let go for the sake of their kid. He has zero chance of survival, and now they are just prolonging his suffering.

Past tense, the child was pronounced dead on May 19, 2007.


 

daveymark

Lifer
Sep 15, 2003
10,573
1
0
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: sixone
Originally posted by: waggy
yes they need to deel with the loss. but it is going ot take years for that to happen. should the child be on the machine the whole time? If you believe in the afterlife why keep the child in limbo? let him continue on with his journey.

on a more releastic side. it is the taxpayers that are footing this bill. should htey continue to pay for this so the parents feel better? the hospital has limited resources. they are being wasted on a case that has no hope of ever getting better.

sometimes a greiving reletive is not the one that s hould be makeing the choice. just look at the shivo case.

I don't give a flying flip about the money. I care about the living. You make it sound like you care more about the taxpayers footing the bill than you do the parents who are with this child every day. Don't they deserve some compassion and understanding?

i don't give a flying flip about money, i care about ACCOUNTABILITY.

if you can't PAY that it's NOT YOUR DECISION.

agreed. too many people think healthcare is a right afforded to them by the government.

 

ForumMaster

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2005
7,792
1
0
:( though situation and similar to what may happen when someone goes into a come except that this child will never get better. he is dead. his body is being kept alive by machines. they need to let him go. i understand that it is a difficult decision. my grandmother had cancer for more then 6 years and she suffered through out the treatments that didn't help. eventually, she decided to give in. she stopped the treatments and was taken care of by a facility for the terminally ill. she at least enjoyed her last year of life far more then she would have had she continued the treatments.

it is a difficult decision to let go of the baby, but in this case when the baby is going to die, has no higher level brain functions and must be kept alive at all times by a machine, nature should have full rein.
 

illusion88

Lifer
Oct 2, 2001
13,164
3
81
I agree that the family should be the ones to decide when to terminate care, but the kids quality of life is terrible. Let him die.