bad situation. but i feel the parents are in the wrong

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
link

AUSTIN, Texas (AP) -- As 17-month-old Emilio Gonzales lies in a hospital, hooked up to tubes to help him breathe and eat, his mother holds him close and cherishes every movement.

Catarina Gonzales knows her baby is terminally ill and that one day she'll have to let go. But it's not yet time, she and her attorneys contend in their legal clash with hospital officials who say it's best to stop Emilio's life-sustaining treatment.

A Texas law lets the hospital make that life-or-death call. The latest legal dispute over the law -- Emilio's case -- goes to court again Tuesday, the day his life support is set to end. (Watch as the deadline approaches to end life support )

"The family has made a unified decision" to keep Emilio living through artificial means, said Joshua Carden, an attorney for the family. "The hospital is making quality of life value judgments. That's a huge source of concern."

Texas is one of the few states with a timetable allowing hospitals to decide when to end life-sustaining treatment, according to studies cited by activist groups. Other states allow hospitals to cut off treatment but do not specify a time frame.

Children's Hospital of Austin has been caring for Emilio since December 28. He's believed to have Leigh's Disease, a progressive illness difficult to diagnose, according to both sides.

The boy cannot breathe on his own and must have nutrition and water pumped into him. He can't swallow or gag or make purposeful movements, said Michael Regier, general counsel for the Seton Family of Hospitals, which encompasses the children's hospital.

Emilio's higher order brain functions are destroyed, and secretions must be vigorously suctioned from his lungs, Regier said.

"The care is very aggressive and very invasive," Regier said.

Hospital contends money is not issue
Though the treatment is expensive, Emilio has health coverage through Medicaid, and the hospital contends money is not part of its decision. Doctors and a hospital ethics panel determined the treatment is causing the boy to suffer without providing any medical benefit, Regier said.

So the hospital invoked the state law that allows it to end life-sustaining treatment in medically futile cases after a 10-day notice to the family. That deadline was voluntarily extended while the hospital and family tried, unsuccessfully as of Monday, to find another facility to care for Emilio.

Catarina Gonzales, 23, who has no other children and cannot have more, denies that her son is nonresponsive, as medical caregivers say, Carden said. She says the boy smiles and turns his head toward voices.

"Every day that her son is alive and she gets to hold him and be next to him moving around is a precious day for her," Carden said.

The 1999 Texas law, signed by then-Gov. George W. Bush, is increasingly under fire from patient advocates, disability rights groups and Texas Right to Life, best known for its anti-abortion efforts.

Those varying interests want to change the so-called futile care law to eliminate the 10-day provision for cutting off life support because they say it's not enough time to transfer a critically ill person to another facility. A state Senate committee plans to hear testimony on proposed changes to the law Thursday.

The powerful Texas Hospital Association and other medical organizations largely support the existing law and say it's not frequently used because families and doctors usually agree on the patient's treatment. Texas Right to Life said it has been involved in more than two dozen similar cases over the past year and a half.

Emilio's situation differs from the case of Terri Schiavo in Florida, who was in a persistent vegetative state and at the center of a legal dispute within her family over whether to remove her feeding tube. Schiavo died after her tube was removed in 2005.

Family: Death by asphyxiation would be painful
In Emilio's case, the family is united in wanting to keep the boy alive.

Last week, a federal judge refused to intervene and left it to the state court where a lawsuit was pending that seeks to declare the law unconstitutional. An Austin judge will hear arguments Tuesday on whether to block the hospital from cutting off Emilio's life support.

"We feel that the original decision is right, and it's time to proceed," said Regier, the hospital's lawyer.

If the hospital is allowed to go forward, the life support equipment would likely be turned off during the day Wednesday when the family can be present and have the aid of social workers and chaplains, he said.

Carden argues that Emilio's death by asphyxiation would be painful. He said the law prevents hospital workers from even giving the boy the drugs death row inmates receive to help them as they are executed by lethal injection.

"It's not like he'll just drift quietly off," he said.





how sad. i feel for the parents. but the child is dead. only reason it is "alive" is because of machines. why torture the child by this? though i doubt it feels anything.

not to mention the waste of tax payers money and waste of hospital resources. but then i doubt the parents are thinking of that. not that i would be in suchy a situation.
 

mooglekit

Senior member
Jul 1, 2003
616
0
0
Tough situation...I'm not a fan of hospitals or governments making decisions of life and death based on policy, but at the same time there is a point at which the family must come to terms with their loss and realize their baby is never coming back. It is a very personal thing, but for me when you reach that point it is time for the family to make the decision to remove life support, and the hospital should support and encourage them in coming to terms with that decision, but should not force them towards it before they are ready.

Edit: Obligatory :( added
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,074
4,725
126
I agree with you, Waggy.

I see it over and over again. People will torture their loved ones who have no chance of any quality life just to delay the inevitable. They aren't curing the person, they aren't giving the person quality life, they aren't doing anything beneficial other than delaying their own pain. That has to be one of the most selfish acts that we have in today's society.

Plus, they are idiots because they aren't looking at the big picture. Their lives are on hold until they let this boy die. They can finally leave the hospital, they can finally leave the city, they can finally move on and start a new family (adopted). They aren't letting themselves heal. Instead, they are constantly picking at the open wound just to delay the healing process.

Stop torturing your boy and let him get some peace. It'll probably be the first peace he has ever felt. Letting him go is the best thing they can do for thier son. Thank God for that law and a reasonable hospital.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
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It doesn?t matter what you or I think. I do not want a hospitals policy or some government legislation making medical decisions for me. I have a living will that expresses my wishes but if I didn?t then I would want my family to make that decision. I have infinitely more faith that my family?s wishes will be in my best interest than the wishes of a Judge or a hospital.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
Originally posted by: dullard

Stop torturing your boy and let him get some peace. It'll probably be the first peace he has ever felt. Letting him go is the best thing they can do for thier son. Thank God for that law and a reasonable hospital.


Why not just legislate all medical decisions when the person receiving the medical care can not decide for themselves? Why even involve the family in the decision making process?

Your advocating a real slippery slope there. If they can make decisions like this then they can give themselves the authority to do the opposite as well. I don?t want them making this decision anymore than I want them saying that a family can NOT pull the plug (Shivo case comes to mind).
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
Originally posted by: Darwin333
It doesn?t matter what you or I think. I do not want a hospitals policy or some government legislation making medical decisions for me. I have a living will that expresses my wishes but if I didn?t then I would want my family to make that decision. I have infinitely more faith that my family?s wishes will be in my best interest than the wishes of a Judge or a hospital.

to a point i agree. but there comes a time when they have to move on. Not to mention the waste of resources.

you have to think of the child. right now he is dead. the machines are giving him a false life.

there is NOTHING postive that can be done. everything from here on is just torture
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
81
Brain dead? Pull the plug and free up space for someone that has a change. I really think that Texas is the most common-sense state in the union.
 

sixone

Lifer
May 3, 2004
25,030
5
61
Originally posted by: waggy
Originally posted by: Darwin333
It doesn?t matter what you or I think. I do not want a hospitals policy or some government legislation making medical decisions for me. I have a living will that expresses my wishes but if I didn?t then I would want my family to make that decision. I have infinitely more faith that my family?s wishes will be in my best interest than the wishes of a Judge or a hospital.

to a point i agree. but there comes a time when they have to move on. Not to mention the waste of resources.

you have to think of the child. right now he is dead. the machines are giving him a false life.

there is NOTHING postive that can be done. everything from here on is just torture

I don't get it. If he's dead, how can he be tortured?

 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
Originally posted by: sixone
Originally posted by: waggy
Originally posted by: Darwin333
It doesn?t matter what you or I think. I do not want a hospitals policy or some government legislation making medical decisions for me. I have a living will that expresses my wishes but if I didn?t then I would want my family to make that decision. I have infinitely more faith that my family?s wishes will be in my best interest than the wishes of a Judge or a hospital.

to a point i agree. but there comes a time when they have to move on. Not to mention the waste of resources.

you have to think of the child. right now he is dead. the machines are giving him a false life.

there is NOTHING postive that can be done. everything from here on is just torture

I don't get it. If he's dead, how can he be tortured?

he is kept "alive" by machines. but he has NO higher brain functions.

they have to suction out his lungs and force feed him.

but perhaps torture is to rough. but seems what they are doing to him is torture.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,074
4,725
126
Originally posted by: Darwin333
Your advocating a real slippery slope there.
Slippery slopes have never materialized in the history of the world. Please stop using that stupid line of argument. Just because I pick a flower for my GF doesn't mean I'm going to bulldoze every single living plant on Earth and turn the world into a barren desert. That "slippery slope" stuff is ALWAYS wrong. Instead of resorting to scare tactics, try using logic and conditions.

1) The person who is ill gets to make the decision.
2) If the person is unable to make the decision the family gets to make the decision.
3) If the family's decision cannot medically help the patient and may harm the patient, then you cannot force a hospital to follow that decision.

For example, suppose I fell, hit my head, and was unconscious. My family should not be able to force a hospital to remove a kidney. Why? Removing the kidney won't help me or my illness. In fact, it probably harms me. The hospital should NOT be forced to do something against it's wishes if it harms me.

The family here is harming the boy. Those invasive techniques are painful, dangerous, and won't help the boy. Thus, they shouldn't be able to force a doctor, a hospital, or anyone to do something against their wishes.

The law doesn't say the life support has to be removed. The law only states that they cannot force the hospital to harm the boy. They can always attempt to convince the hospital to do it voluntarilly (but instead they are suing). They can always move the boy to another hosipital. Heck, the family can buy their own equipment and have him at home with them. Sure, it'll be expensive, but the family isn't thinking clearly as it is.

Or how about you, that family, and the Shivo family start a new hospital that is dedicated solely to prolonging pain and torturing patients just so the patient's family is happy. Then you can move all patients like this boy to your hospital. Medicare will pay for it, so it is feasible. We can end your argument right then and there.
 

sixone

Lifer
May 3, 2004
25,030
5
61
Originally posted by: waggy
he is kept "alive" by machines. but he has NO higher brain functions.

they have to suction out his lungs and force feed him.

but perhaps torture is to rough. but seems what they are doing to him is torture.

If he's not feeling it, then there is no reason not to give the parents the time they need to deal with their loss. It should be their decision in any case, not the decision of a bunch of strangers.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
Originally posted by: sixone
Originally posted by: waggy
he is kept "alive" by machines. but he has NO higher brain functions.

they have to suction out his lungs and force feed him.

but perhaps torture is to rough. but seems what they are doing to him is torture.

If he's not feeling it, then there is no reason not to give the parents the time they need to deal with their loss. It should be their decision in any case, not the decision of a bunch of strangers.


yes they need to deel with the loss. but it is going ot take years for that to happen. should the child be on the machine the whole time? If you believe in the afterlife why keep the child in limbo? let him continue on with his journey.

on a more releastic side. it is the taxpayers that are footing this bill. should htey continue to pay for this so the parents feel better? the hospital has limited resources. they are being wasted on a case that has no hope of ever getting better.

sometimes a greiving reletive is not the one that s hould be makeing the choice. just look at the shivo case.
 

sixone

Lifer
May 3, 2004
25,030
5
61
Originally posted by: waggy
yes they need to deel with the loss. but it is going ot take years for that to happen. should the child be on the machine the whole time? If you believe in the afterlife why keep the child in limbo? let him continue on with his journey.

on a more releastic side. it is the taxpayers that are footing this bill. should htey continue to pay for this so the parents feel better? the hospital has limited resources. they are being wasted on a case that has no hope of ever getting better.

sometimes a greiving reletive is not the one that s hould be makeing the choice. just look at the shivo case.

I don't give a flying flip about the money. I care about the living. You make it sound like you care more about the taxpayers footing the bill than you do the parents who are with this child every day. Don't they deserve some compassion and understanding?
 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
71
Originally posted by: Darwin333
It doesn?t matter what you or I think. I do not want a hospitals policy or some government legislation making medical decisions for me. I have a living will that expresses my wishes but if I didn?t then I would want my family to make that decision. I have infinitely more faith that my family?s wishes will be in my best interest than the wishes of a Judge or a hospital.

the child is on MEDICAID, the parents CANNOT make payments, as much as you want to say it's not about money it's ALWAYS about money. and why shouldn't it be.

sorry, but if you can't pay for a procedure than it is not YOUR DECISION TO MAKE.

the hospital and the state SHOULD make the decision when it's a situation where the patient cannot afford to pay.

sure, if you are bill gates and is willing to pay for indefinite support of life, than you can argue that it is his call.

otherwise, it is NOT YOUR RIGHT. how can you claim it is your RIGHT if you can't pay for it?

 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
Originally posted by: sixone
Originally posted by: waggy
yes they need to deel with the loss. but it is going ot take years for that to happen. should the child be on the machine the whole time? If you believe in the afterlife why keep the child in limbo? let him continue on with his journey.

on a more releastic side. it is the taxpayers that are footing this bill. should htey continue to pay for this so the parents feel better? the hospital has limited resources. they are being wasted on a case that has no hope of ever getting better.

sometimes a greiving reletive is not the one that s hould be makeing the choice. just look at the shivo case.

I don't give a flying flip about the money. I care about the living. You make it sound like you care more about the taxpayers footing the bill than you do the parents who are with this child every day. Don't they deserve some compassion and understanding?


IF there was a chance the child could come back i woiuld be all for it. FACT is that IS NOT going to happen. EVER. No matter how long he stays on the machines he is never going to get better.

yes they derserve compassion and understanding. They do not derserve to keep the child on machines until they feel it is time for him to go. medicaid has a limited amount of funds. i would rather see that money go to help someone alive who needs it.

also the hospital has limited resources. why waste them on a case where there is NO chance of improvement?

 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
71
Originally posted by: sixone
Originally posted by: waggy
yes they need to deel with the loss. but it is going ot take years for that to happen. should the child be on the machine the whole time? If you believe in the afterlife why keep the child in limbo? let him continue on with his journey.

on a more releastic side. it is the taxpayers that are footing this bill. should htey continue to pay for this so the parents feel better? the hospital has limited resources. they are being wasted on a case that has no hope of ever getting better.

sometimes a greiving reletive is not the one that s hould be makeing the choice. just look at the shivo case.

I don't give a flying flip about the money. I care about the living. You make it sound like you care more about the taxpayers footing the bill than you do the parents who are with this child every day. Don't they deserve some compassion and understanding?

i don't give a flying flip about money, i care about ACCOUNTABILITY.

if you can't PAY that it's NOT YOUR DECISION.

 

NuclearNed

Raconteur
May 18, 2001
7,882
380
126
I think the parents should let the baby pass on. I feel really bad for them. At the same time, people who are under heavy emotional stress are not in the best frame of mind to make rational, logical decisions.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,074
4,725
126
Originally posted by: sixone
I don't give a flying flip about the money. I care about the living. You make it sound like you care more about the taxpayers footing the bill than you do the parents who are with this child every day. Don't they deserve some compassion and understanding?
No, you are not really caring about the living. Are want to give them short term happiness at the expense of long term pain. You want them to never be able to heal from this bad situation. You want them to forever be attached to this hospital where they can't leave their dead son. You want them to never have closure. You want to have them see this pain every single day of their lives as their son is brutally abused as "secretions must be vigorously suctioned from his lungs". You want them to suffer from a never-ending and hopeless battle.

We want that family to be able to move on and heal from this tragedy. We gave them 17 months with their son who would never have made it this far without us paying for it. We gave them plenty of compassion and understanding. But we also want them to return to normal lives. We want to give the family a chance to start anew. That is what the family truely deserves.

I'm sorry for being harsh, but it sickens me what you want to do to that family.
 

sixone

Lifer
May 3, 2004
25,030
5
61
Originally posted by: waggy
IF there was a chance the child could come back i woiuld be all for it. FACT is that IS NOT going to happen. EVER. No matter how long he stays on the machines he is never going to get better.

yes they derserve compassion and understanding. They do not derserve to keep the child on machines until they feel it is time for him to go. medicaid has a limited amount of funds. i would rather see that money go to help someone alive who needs it.

also the hospital has limited resources. why waste them on a case where there is NO chance of improvement?

The money spent to keep him alive is not going to cause anyone else to be denied the treatment they need. And if it helps the parents, then it's money well spent, IMHO.
 

sixone

Lifer
May 3, 2004
25,030
5
61
Originally posted by: dullard
Originally posted by: sixone
I don't give a flying flip about the money. I care about the living. You make it sound like you care more about the taxpayers footing the bill than you do the parents who are with this child every day. Don't they deserve some compassion and understanding?
No, you are not really caring about the living. Are want to give them short term happiness at the expense of long term pain. You want them to never be able to heal from this bad situation. You want them to forever be attached to this hospital where they can't leave their dead son. You want them to never have closure. You want to have them see this pain every single day of their lives as their son is brutally abused as "secretions must be vigorously suctioned from his lungs". You want them to suffer from a never-ending and hopeless battle.

We want that family to be able to move on and heal from this tragedy. We gave them 17 months with their son who would never have made it this far without us paying for it. We gave them plenty of compassion and understanding. But we also want them to return to normal lives. We want to give the family a chance to start anew. That is what the family truely deserves.

That should be their choice, not yours.


 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
71
Originally posted by: sixone
Originally posted by: dullard
Originally posted by: sixone
I don't give a flying flip about the money. I care about the living. You make it sound like you care more about the taxpayers footing the bill than you do the parents who are with this child every day. Don't they deserve some compassion and understanding?
No, you are not really caring about the living. Are want to give them short term happiness at the expense of long term pain. You want them to never be able to heal from this bad situation. You want them to forever be attached to this hospital where they can't leave their dead son. You want them to never have closure. You want to have them see this pain every single day of their lives as their son is brutally abused as "secretions must be vigorously suctioned from his lungs". You want them to suffer from a never-ending and hopeless battle.

We want that family to be able to move on and heal from this tragedy. We gave them 17 months with their son who would never have made it this far without us paying for it. We gave them plenty of compassion and understanding. But we also want them to return to normal lives. We want to give the family a chance to start anew. That is what the family truely deserves.

That should be their choice, not yours.

the choice to waste my resources should be theirs?

what kind of idiocy is this?

entitlement at it's absolute worst.

they are NOT entitled to treatments that they can't pay for beyond a certain point.

no it is NOT their decision.