Bad PQ on Internet Streaming Services.. is that normal?

[smitbret]

So, I'm a little behind the internet streaming services push. I am just trying out NetFlix and Amazon Prime Instant Video with my HTPC and have been horribly disappointed so far. Am I expecting too much?

First of all, I am on a 60/5 internet service. Speedtest before and after watching are never below 50mbps. When I load something on Amazon Prime I get the full 4 blue bars and the HD icon is also blue so it appears that everything is optimized.

Then, I play the file and my jaw drops in disbelief at the juddery 29.97fps, the muddy shadows, blocking, noise, overall hazy feel to the PQ. Honestly, the PQ reminds me of a poorly upscaled DVD.

NetFlix is no different. In fact, it's even more frustrating because I don't even know whether to expect something to be in SD or HD (lack of information) and it doesn't offer any settings or indicators that let you know the quality of the streaming media.

What am I missing here? Are they using horrible encoders? Are there some secret settings that I am overlooking? I have 2 hour HD movies that I reencoded for mobile devices at 1-1.5GB with far better quality than I am seeing from NetFlix or Amazon Prime. Are there any other services like Hulu that are providing better quality?

 

[NutBucket]

You're not missing anything. If you care about PQ and SQ streaming isn't for you.

 

[MustISO]

I don't have a ton of streaming experience but we've used both Netflix and Amazon Instant Video on our Samsung TV and the picture is crystal clear. At least DVD quality. TV shows in particular look very good. There's no buffering, stuttering at all for us.

 

[poofyhairguy]

Are there any other services like Hulu that are providing better quality?

Vudu HDX is the only streaming service that comes close to a Blu Ray.

Netflix and Amazon is designed for those happy with DVD quality.

 

[NutBucket]

DVD quality is an insult when the claim is HD...

 

[poofyhairguy]

DVD quality is an insult when the claim is HD...

Some of it is better than DVD, but that isn't saying much. When you are used to Blu Ray bitrates, uncompressed audio (or just fat DTS tracks), and seeing detail like film grain it is hard to watch streaming stuff outside of Vudu.

Personally I only watch streaming for stuff that isn't out any other way- like the fourth season of Arrested Development. My wife watches it for stuff like older shows that never have been released on Blu Ray. Overall if it is on Blu I watch it on Blu, but I have had to get hundreds of Blu Rays (or clearance HD DVDs) to sustain that pickiness.

 

[smitbret]

Cool, so it's probably not my imagination.

I wasn't expecting BD quality, but I did expect to feel like I was watching some HD content (720p was what I had in mind). I will mention that the TV shows from Amazon tended to look considerably better than any movie I have attempted to stream but they still leave a lot to be desired.

 

[thomsbrain]

Do you have any way to confirm what stream you are watching on PC?

On PS3, you can see which stream is currently being played. There's several grades of SD, 720p, 1080p, and high-bitrate 1080p. Streams are either DD 2.0 or DD 5.1. But generally the PS3 has been the Netflix platform that has led all PQ and SQ improvements so it wouldn't surprise me if you can't get the max-rate streams or surround sound on a PC. Even the highest bit rate isn't as nice as BR (it's 1/4 the data), but it's WAY better than DVD or broadcast HDTV.

 

[smitbret]

Do you have any way to confirm what stream you are watching on PC?

On PS3, you can see which stream is currently being played. There's several grades of SD, 720p, 1080p, and high-bitrate 1080p. Streams are either DD 2.0 or DD 5.1. But generally the PS3 has been the Netflix platform that has led all PQ and SQ improvements so it wouldn't surprise me if you can't get the max-rate streams or surround sound on a PC. Even the highest bit rate isn't as nice as BR (it's 1/4 the data), but it's WAY better than DVD or broadcast HDTV.

1 - I am picking HD titles on NetFlix and Amazon both.
2 - I have confirmed that my NetFlix settings are for maximum quality and I have the "HD" turned on and confirm it is Blue on the Quality Settings when I begin playback with Amazon.
3 - I have done SpeedTests before an immediately after and they have never been lower than 50mbps at any time.

I don't expect BD quality, but the quality is nowhere near as good as a decent HD on broadcast TV. I would love to try something in SuperHD from NetFlix, but haven't yet figured out how to tell what's available in that format since NetFlix doesn't see fit to label anything.

 

[Matt1970]

There is actually less HD content for PC from Netflix as opposed to other devices like a smart TV. From what I have learned and that seems to be the case here is that picture quality is dependent on your area.

 

[SickBeast]

Some ISPs throttle netflix or just do not offer enough bandwidth to do HD. Even if you have good results on speedtest you can still have a problem.

 

[RearAdmiral]

I experience the same. Granted I am now watching on a 120" screen and the flaws with streaming services are quite glaring with that. SuperHD is reasonably tolerable for me for Netflix at least. Amazon streaming does seem a bit better when I use that.

What sort of device are you using to watch?

 

[tential]

I don't have a ton of streaming experience but we've used both Netflix and Amazon Instant Video on our Samsung TV and the picture is crystal clear. At least DVD quality. TV shows in particular look very good. There's no buffering, stuttering at all for us.

DVD Quality and Crystal Clear?

This is a discussion where it really is dependent on what everyone's standards are.
There are many videos on Netflix/Amazon Prime I wouldn't watch now. It was only acceptable when I didn't wear glasses no matter what. Now I wear them all the time and it's bluray or nothing. Some people aren't this picky, my cousin watches SD TV all the time and is happy (we have HD....)

Edit: Display size/quality also matters. When I watched on my small HDTV that was 32 inches? I didn't care. My 42 inch? I started to care. My 70 inch? I really started to care. Then I got glasses. And there was no way I was dealing with streaming quality ever again.

Some of it is better than DVD, but that isn't saying much. When you are used to Blu Ray bitrates, uncompressed audio (or just fat DTS tracks), and seeing detail like film grain it is hard to watch streaming stuff outside of Vudu.

Personally I only watch streaming for stuff that isn't out any other way- like the fourth season of Arrested Development. My wife watches it for stuff like older shows that never have been released on Blu Ray. Overall if it is on Blu I watch it on Blu, but I have had to get hundreds of Blu Rays (or clearance HD DVDs) to sustain that pickiness.

Yup. My friends will be like "The new episode of blah blah blah aired!!!!" "Is it out on bluray yet?" is my response.

 

[bbhaag]

I think your expectations are set a little high for streaming video.

 

[Railgun]

While I've seen streams that are better than what the local sat provider is proving (sky NFL vs streaming on game day) it's hit and miss.

From a movie perspective, I still argue even blu-ray is iffy at best, but I digress. From a streaming perspective, only local direct play from a BR rip is what I would entertain. From the Internet, only youtube gets streamed.

Until ISPs and the CDNs get it figured out, it's going to generally suck for the foreseeable future.

 

[smitbret]

While I've seen streams that are better than what the local sat provider is proving (sky NFL vs streaming on game day) it's hit and miss.

From a movie perspective, I still argue even blu-ray is iffy at best, but I digress. From a streaming perspective, only local direct play from a BR rip is what I would entertain. From the Internet, only youtube gets streamed.

Until ISPs and the CDNs get it figured out, it's going to generally suck for the foreseeable future.

Yeah, I am starting to lean this way. I have been messing around with Vudu and their HDX stuff for the last couple of days and I see less issues with things like blocking and artifacts but it still lacks the punch of my locally stored media. It blows my mind that they aren't capable of setting up encoders to deliver better quality for the bandwidth they require. Maybe it comes down to the hardware requirements to do it in real time. I wish there were an option with these services to set a quality and just buffer if necessary. For titles I really want to see I would have no problem requesting the file a couple of hours ahead of time to let it buffer if it meant I got better quality.

On that note, the downloadable Vudu HDX files are better but still not what I would even call good and I hate the idea that I would have to download the stupid thing 3 or 4 times to each device that I think I MIGHT want to watch it on.

This also makes me wonder what kind of crack these video review sites must be supplying in the break room when they do comparisons of iTunes vs. Vudu vs. Blu-Ray and they see things like "All 3 delivered high quality that was very similar". Do they even watch the movies?

Let me finish my mentioning that it seems like YouTube seems to have nailed this. In general 1080p YouTube streams seem to be a lot cleaner and of higher quality than the other services I have tried. Why can they nail it down and give it to me for free but the pay services just slog by with their crap.

 

[tential]

While I've seen streams that are better than what the local sat provider is proving (sky NFL vs streaming on game day) it's hit and miss.

From a movie perspective, I still argue even blu-ray is iffy at best, but I digress. From a streaming perspective, only local direct play from a BR rip is what I would entertain. From the Internet, only youtube gets streamed.

Until ISPs and the CDNs get it figured out, it's going to generally suck for the foreseeable future.

I never noticed the differences in live TV until recently. On Redzone, it will filp into some broadcasts and it looks horrendous.
I watched the HD Broadcast of the Patriots/Chargers game, looked terrible.
I watch the ESPN Broadcast of the Falcons/Packers game and it looks crisp (and I think that was 720p even).

Crazy the differences in even live broadcasts that are all HD.

It's going to suck for the forseeable future until ISPs start having competition. I'm looking to move from the EastCoast and to get the same quality of internet I have here, I'd have to pay double, and even then it'd be cable and not a fiber line and reading the comments on people talking about their ISPs, it looks like a crapshoot.

Austin Texas and their Google Fiber seems more and more attractive.

 

[smitbret]

I never noticed the differences in live TV until recently. On Redzone, it will filp into some broadcasts and it looks horrendous.
I watched the HD Broadcast of the Patriots/Chargers game, looked terrible.
I watch the ESPN Broadcast of the Falcons/Packers game and it looks crisp (and I think that was 720p even).

Crazy the differences in even live broadcasts that are all HD.

Oddly enough, I have just started to notice this on my DirecTV lately, as well. A year or two ago I couldn't see that many issues and I was looking. I noticed some of the Fox broadcasts have just looked awful, lately. Soft and full of artifacts. I've thought about throwing up an antenna just to see how the OTA Fox broadcasts look versus the Sat feed.

ESPN always looks crisp as do all of the Disney Owned Channels. I know that DirecTV is currently in negotiations and Disney is currently allowing the rebroadcast without a contract in place. DTV is probably just trying not to poke the monster while everything is sensitive.

I wonder if DTV is having bandwidth issues. They are launching 2 new birds this year and phasing out some older sats. I may have to stop by the DBSTalk forums and see if there are any discussions over there.

 

[tential]

Oddly enough, I have just started to notice this on my DirecTV lately, as well. A year or two ago I couldn't see that many issues and I was looking. I noticed some of the Fox broadcasts have just looked awful, lately. Soft and full of artifacts. I've thought about throwing up an antenna just to see how the OTA Fox broadcasts look versus the Sat feed.

ESPN always looks crisp as do all of the Disney Owned Channels. I know that DirecTV is currently in negotiations and Disney is currently allowing the rebroadcast without a contract in place. DTV is probably just trying not to poke the monster while everything is sensitive.

I wonder if DTV is having bandwidth issues. They are launching 2 new birds this year and phasing out some older sats. I may have to stop by the DBSTalk forums and see if there are any discussions over there.

What I would REALLY like is for some type of low latency high speed internet through the air (Yes crazy!!!!!). Something where you simply need authorization to build a tower or launch a satelite or something. Something that allows us to easily get competition.

Combined with Internet TV becoming the norm.

For how advanced we are, we're so god damned primitive in internet/TV in the states.

 

[BarkingGhostar]

I have to wonder if Amazon Prime's app is the problem. I tried mirroring Amazon Prime from my iPhone through the 3rd gen Apple TV and the PQ was terrible. I didn't know if this was the result of source material on AP's storage being crappy, or if the app was identifying the resolution of the iPhone and sending that only.

I guess I could go test using my new iPad Air 2 ...

 

[NutBucket]

DTV/cable definitely have bandwidth issues. The easiest way to see that is compare OTA to the DTV/cable feeds; OTA wins every time, no contest.

 

[gar655]

Vudu HDX is the only streaming service that comes close to a Blu Ray.

Netflix and Amazon is designed for those happy with DVD quality.

I find iTunes is generally better overall than Vudu HDX. For the most part the PQ of iTunes, Vudu and Amazon are fairly similar.

For the OP I watch on a 70" TV from 9' and all three of the streaming video that I mentioned are clearly better than DVD.

In fact depending on the content (bright, daytime scenes, animation etc...) there is little to no difference with blu-ray. Once the action gets really fast or scenes turn dark, then you notice the compression artifacts.

You should be getting a better picture than you state.

 

[Railgun]

It blows my mind that they aren't capable of setting up encoders to deliver better quality for the bandwidth they require.

That's what h.265 is supposed to accomplish, but until I see it. Even then, I'm still of the mindset that's compression is compression and it will never look as good as it can uncompressed.

RED and a few others have whatever tech behind their respective players that can stream 4K well with little bandwidth. IIRC, RED's only asks for 2 MB, which in the grand scheme of things isn't bad, but I defer to my previous statement.
Then there are the ISP's data caps.

If it's not one thing, it's another.

 

[poofyhairguy]

I find iTunes is generally better overall than Vudu HDX.

I agree if you are talking about regular Vudu, but I think HDX kicks iTunes's ass. A lot of that is audio- I can't STAND AAC, or basic DVD-quality 5.1, audio tracks. HDX is the only online streaming format with audio tracks worthy of a cinema consumption.

With that said, in regards to video quality I have read some that feel iTunes is better than HDX. Basically it comes down to the fact that 720p can go further with low bitrates than 1080p, along with the fact that HDX has aggressive noise reduction. Here is one account:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-ne...-unchained-blu-ray-vs-itunes-vs-vudu-hdx.html

None of it, at any point, is anywhere near a Blu Ray-just for the sound alone. Uncompressed audio is a quality difference even my pretty crappy ears can hear. Plus as you point out during action scenes (where a Blu Ray would be peaking its bitrate) I hate seeing artifacts with streaming content.

The big thing with modern blockbusters across the board is "hyper action" -aka during action scenes it is no longer just two people fighting/moving but dozens of people fighting/moving filling the whole screen. The big example of this for me is the first Hobbit movie as they try to escape the troll layer and each hobbit is doing something the whole way out. Or the Avenger movie where Iron Man fights in the sky as other Avengers fight on the ground. Unless you have a crystal clear picture during action scenes you are going to miss something, and the tide of the comic movies with hyper action doesn't seem to stop.

At the end of the day I only watch TV shows or slower dramatic movies on streaming services for this reason. And not just any TV show- if it is a high budget HBO production I am watching the Blu too.