Discussion Back to school, without a teacher: Inside the struggle to keep teachers at rural schools

[Starbuck1975]

I am in a blue state. our rural counties are not over flowing with money.

You’re seeing this play out in many ways. For most large cities, it comes down to class size and other programs. The affluent neighborhoods enjoy small class sizes and quality arts and sciences enrichment programs. Working class and poor neighborhoods, not so much.

 

[ch33zw1z]

What the article is pointing out is that people actually enjoy the collective bargaining power that was previously had. When that power is removed, people will just not bother. Scott Walker struck the blow, and it hastened the Exodus and accelerated the process.

 

[Starbuck1975]

What the article is pointing out is that people actually enjoy the collective bargaining power that was previously had. When that power is removed, people will just not bother. Scott Walker struck the blow, and it hastened the Exodus and accelerated the process.

That’s only part of the equation. In states with strong teacher’s unions, those districts offset costs by increasing class size and cutting funding to programs that fill the funnel of next generation teachers, and those chickens are coming home to roost.

The fact of the matter is that no one wants to pay the taxes required to fund quality education for everyone, and even in areas where collective bargaining is strong, unions are left fighting for crumbs. You are seeing this play out in other ways in manufacturing and construction due to automation.

 

[Exterous]

This problem is only going to get worse and is more of a structural issue than a union or political party issue: how we fund schools. It is too reliant on local funding. Full stop. As people move away for work, better schools, whatever, a districts ability to educate comes under increasing pressure because they have less funding. Schools with higher property tax incomes can pay notably higher salaries and have more clubs, sports and resources.

Some states have looked to increasing funding of schools but its often haphazard and poorly thought out. Money comes with strings ("Can only be used for iPads", "Can only be used for new textbooks (when the old ones are still fine)). Or the plan is poorly thought out: A sudden influx of cash to the most cash strapped areas to balance them with the well funded areas but doesn't address the underlying issue. The teachers at the better funded schools stay because - why move? So the teachers at the 'at risk' schools flee to the suddenly-well-funded-schools and the cycle repeats

 

[KB]

I am not so sure eliminating collective bargaining is the main reason for the teacher shortage. The job market has been tight for many positions, I would imagine this would include teaching positions. When the economy goes into recession finding teachers should get easier.

"Without union contracts and their financial incentives for those who stayed put until retirement, teachers were free to shop around – and to be poached by other districts"

This sounds good for teachers. They can go where the money is like the rest of us.

Talking to many teacher friends, their biggest complaint is lack of support from administrators and parents from hell. Union rights and collective bargaining is not on the top of their list.

 

[ch33zw1z]

That’s only part of the equation. In states with strong teacher’s unions, those districts offset costs by increasing class size and cutting funding to programs that fill the funnel of next generation teachers, and those chickens are coming home to roost.

The fact of the matter is that no one wants to pay the taxes required to fund quality education for everyone, and even in areas where collective bargaining is strong, unions are left fighting for crumbs. You are seeing this play out in other ways in manufacturing and construction due to automation.

You're wrong. I'm willing to pay the taxes. And in fact, many towns around me are willing to pay the taxes, and do. I think my states scores mirror that sentiment, I'm in MA

 

[Starbuck1975]

You're wrong. I'm willing to pay the taxes. And in fact, many towns around me are willing to pay the taxes, and do. I think my states scores mirror that sentiment, I'm in MA

MA is somewhat of an exception given the dense concentration of college educated tax payers, but huge disparity exists between the land of pumpkin spice and Volvos and the working class areas.

 

[ch33zw1z]

MA is somewhat of an exception given the dense concentration of college educated tax payers, but huge disparity exists between the land of pumpkin spice and Volvos and the working class areas.

I live in Western ma in a working class town. The disparity you're talking about is based on perspective, attitude, and population.

1. Perspective: people in my town think we have high taxes. When reality says our taxes are low compared to surrounding towns.

2. Attitude: attitude towards education makes a big difference. Our emphasis on education is not as extreme as higher performing towns.

3. Population: rural area population is falling. The remaining population is aging. If you go to the town meetings (very important you do) you'll find most of the people are older and don't care to spend money on the school district.

Of course, this doesn't even address the point from the article that money doesn't necessarily matter.

Either way, youre wrong. There are people willing to pay the taxes. In fact, I'm willing to pay more to ensure kids in my district get breakfast and lunch for free. (And neither of my kids attend district schools)

 

[Maxima1]

You're wrong. I'm willing to pay the taxes. And in fact, many towns around me are willing to pay the taxes, and do. I think my states scores mirror that sentiment, I'm in MA

Good job opportunities in the state and less poor performing minorities are the real reason.

On a similar note, Singapore or Shanghai aren't loads "better" despite on the surface seeming that way. There are so many elite in Singapore and Shanghai it's not even funny.

That’s only part of the equation. In states with strong teacher’s unions, those districts offset costs by increasing class size and cutting funding to programs that fill the funnel of next generation teachers, and those chickens are coming home to roost.

The fact of the matter is that no one wants to pay the taxes required to fund quality education for everyone, and even in areas where collective bargaining is strong, unions are left fighting for crumbs. You are seeing this play out in other ways in manufacturing and construction due to automation.

Most of the variance in achievement has little to do with schools.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1159136429110386688

https://twitter.com/x/status/912843649657925632

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41539-018-0019-8

Differences in exam performance between pupils attending selective and non-selective schools mirror the genetic differences between them

 

[ch33zw1z]

Good job opportunities in the state and less poor performing minorities are the real reason.

My state takes a very serious and active role in education. Not for the lack of my small town district trying to skirt it.

See my follow up post. Each situation in each district can be very different. In my experience, it comes down to those 3 main points. My town is small, and wants to stay that way thru isolation techniques. I've sat in quite a few town meetings, just bewildered by the extent people will go thru to stay unnoticed and keep "undesirables" out. Yet, the same people will be on Facebook complaining about the high taxes and lack of school funding in the same paragraph. Poor education begets poor education. People will have to take responsibility at some point for what a quality education actually takes. As the article pointed out, it's not necessarily about money either.

 

[dainthomas]

The fact of the matter is that no one wants to pay the taxes required to fund quality education for everyone, and even in areas where collective bargaining is strong, unions are left fighting for crumbs. You are seeing this play out in other ways in manufacturing and construction due to automation.

The Boomer FYGM generation doesn't want to pay for schools now that their kids aren't in them. As these people go away, my hope is that this will turn around.

I know that I vote for every school bond or tax increase for schools, and I would hope others in my generation and younger are doing the same. The current state of public schools in this country is beyond woeful.

 

[Jhhnn]

Differences in exam performance between pupils attending selective and non-selective schools mirror the genetic differences between them

Obviously not racist. Couldn't be.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

The Boomer FYGM generation doesn't want to pay for schools now that their kids aren't in them. As these people go away, my hope is that this will turn around.

I know that I vote for every school bond or tax increase for schools, and I would hope others in my generation and younger are doing the same. The current state of public schools in this country is beyond woeful.

Has very little to do with boomers, not sure why you want to shit on them.

You think Boomers are the reason why schools suck in Detroit, Baltimore, etc???

It's a multitude of factors, but most of it I would attribute to our shit culture. Live in a decent suburb and you will find good schools, higher taxes to pay for it, and an overall happy atmosphere.

Live in any urban area and it's filled with deplorables, shitty people, shitty parents with no will to drive their kids to success.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Obviously not racist. Couldn't be.

Remember kids: When presented with facts - just pull the race card! It's a win win and immediately shuts down the conversation and any/all debate.

 

[dainthomas]

Has very little to do with boomers, not sure why you want to shit on them.

Because old people (them) don't vote for the taxes to pay for schools anywhere. This isn't news.

In Oregon, they voted to pass Measure 5 in 1990 that limited local property taxes to pay for schools (and everything else). Responsibility was transferred to the state which predictably sucks at it and slashes funding whenever they get a chance. Instead of making all districts in the state equally good, they now equally suck. My daughter's elementary school classes have averaged about 30 students ever since first grade. That's preposterous. If you're going to tell me a teacher is just as effective with 30 students as 15 or 20, I'll tell you you're delusional.

Edit: and I live in a well off suburb just a couple miles from Intel's newest fab. thousands of well educated Intel folks have kids in the school district.

 

[Jhhnn]

Remember kids: When presented with facts - just pull the race card! It's a win win and immediately shuts down the conversation and any/all debate.

Racial equality isn't about academic number games. It's a principle we must live by.

The fact that M introduced it off topic into this discussion indicates he has some axe to grind with that principle.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Racial equality isn't about academic number games. It's a principle we must live by.

The fact that M introduced it off topic into this discussion indicates he has some axe to grind with that principle.

Equality is never going to happen in life.

I'm all for equality of opportunity, but the fact is there will always be someone that is Rich that is willing to Shell out massive funds to pay for the likes of private tutoring and such.

At the same time, equality of outcome is laughably stupid and inconceivable. To quote some famous folks:

"A society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both"

And

"Human beings are born with different capacities, of they are free they are not equal. And if they are equal then they are not free."

 

[whm1974]

Equality is never going to happen in life.

I'm all for equality of opportunity, but the fact is there will always be someone that is Rich that is willing to Shell out massive funds to pay for the likes of private tutoring and such.

At the same time, equality of outcome is laughably stupid and inconceivable. To quote some famous folks:

"A society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both"

And

"Human beings are born with different capacities, of they are free they are not equal. And if they are equal then they are not free."

Dude, when they mention Equality they are talking about Equality of Opportunity and Equality under the Law. And no one who is Sane is demanding Equality of Outcome is nothing more then a damn Strawman invent of those who to be Well Privileged over the rest of Society.

http://www.factandmyth.com/economic...s-equality-of-outcome-the-manufactured-debate

 

[Greenman]

Everyone is leaving rural areas, especially the kids of those that do live there.

This isn't surprising in the least. We need to find a way to create more urban areas or we are doomed to get immensely more stuffed into cities.

A situation that completely baffles me. I can't fathom why anyone would want to live in a big city.

 

[Jhhnn]

A situation that completely baffles me. I can't fathom why anyone would want to live in a big city.

Because they need to make a living. That's where the Job Creators put the jobs, right?

Small towns & rural America are having an increasingly difficult time generating enough income to counter all the money going out for damned near everything. Energy. Communication. Food. Medicine. If Capitalism wanted to employ them, it would happen, but it's not. They're discards as far as free market capitalism is concerned. There are places in this country where commerce would cease if it weren't for federal money coming in but they vote GOP anyway cuz they don't want big gubmint. Dunno what they do want but it looks like unobtainium to me.

 

[ch33zw1z]

A situation that completely baffles me. I can't fathom why anyone would want to live in a big city.

Shocked.

 

[Greenman]

Shocked.

I live in the San Francisco bay area, it sucks. It sucks a lot. Crowding, horrendous traffic, homelessness, crime, absurd prices. I'm counting down the days until I can evacuate. The one thing I won't do is look back.

 

[ch33zw1z]

I live in the San Francisco bay area, it sucks. It sucks a lot. Crowding, horrendous traffic, homelessness, crime, absurd prices. I'm counting down the days until I can evacuate. The one thing I won't do is look back.

Not every city is San Francisco. And, not everyone shares your perspective. Im confident, if you really try, you can see things from someone else's point of view.

 

[Greenman]

Not every city is San Francisco. And, not everyone shares your perspective. Im confident, if you really try, you can see things from someone else's point of view.

I suppose some people are happy with both parents working, with hiring a stranger to raise their children. They think they're lucky to have found a 1200 square foot house that was only eight hundred thousand dollars. They're down right blessed to be able to ride bart to work for fifteen bucks each way and it only takes two hours of sitting in a shit infested train saying no to pan handlers.

I lived here when it was a great place to live. It's not anymore and I morn the passing of that time. It's now a rat race, and the rats are winning. All this area is now is overpopulated. Eight million of us live here now, that's about three million to many. My wife and I will be reducing that number by two. Fun fact. In a recent poll 68% said they would move out of state if they could. Why does two thirds of the population want to leave such a wonderful metropolis?

 

[Jhhnn]

I suppose some people are happy with both parents working, with hiring a stranger to raise their children. They think they're lucky to have found a 1200 square foot house that was only eight hundred thousand dollars. They're down right blessed to be able to ride bart to work for fifteen bucks each way and it only takes two hours of sitting in a shit infested train saying no to pan handlers.

I lived here when it was a great place to live. It's not anymore and I morn the passing of that time. It's now a rat race, and the rats are winning. All this area is now is overpopulated. Eight million of us live here now, that's about three million to many. My wife and I will be reducing that number by two. Fun fact. In a recent poll 68% said they would move out of state if they could. Why does two thirds of the population want to leave such a wonderful metropolis?

So you're displeased with the Capitalist Job Creator activity? With the Free Market?