Average cost per pupil in NJ is $19k.

[Vic]

And yet New Jersey is arguably the wealthiest state per capita.

 

[Mai72]

standardized test aren't the end all either. I think they are doing far more harm then good.

as it is with so much riding on the test schools teach HOW to take the test. Not what the test covers.

there have also been reports that some schools will stick to only exactly what the test covers and not everything the child should be taught.

Whose to blame? The government or the school system. The reason that schools teach to the test is because it's their neck that's on the line. People wanted accountability and this is what they get.

 

[Mai72]

It's not how much money we pay per student. its how we teach those students.

the country keeps looking for a easy way to teach students.they try these things out and then are shocked when it does not work. so they try another easy way..etc etc.

now 30 years of trying to to find a easy way to teach kids the scores across the board have dropped.

Agreed! Why do students in countries like South Korea do so well? Its because they spend a lot of time in school. They spend way more time in school then American students. Secondly, they value education. SK patents spend a lot if money on their child's education. They don't spend time after school playing sports. Nope! They continue their education up until 12-1am. They don't start out smarter than American children. Its just that they are willing to put the hours in, and this in turn makes them better.

Yes, I know about Norway. I just don't think the Norway system would work in Asia.

 

[Jaskalas]

The idea that we can replace schools with the internet is frankly preposterous.

Which of us is the conservative now?

Our entire planet is just a fingertip away. I picture $60,000 - $75,000 is more than enough to provide for that, their college education, and financial security for their family. I mean... do you know what this money could do for the poor? Instead we let an institution siphon off an amount greater than the median family income.

Progress will be made, it's just a matter of how much you want to defy it and stand in its way. The common ideological position of many Republicans.

 

[nehalem256]

Maybe they should have.

http://clevelandhistorical.org/items/show/392

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_busing_crisis

Or you know they could have not wasted taxpayer money, and students time, busing students around so that the "correct" racial balance in schools was achieved.

 

[Wreckem]

First the chart is bogus.

Costs associated with instruction(teacher pay, supplies, books etc etc) have stayed steady and consistent.

Costs have skyrocketed because of two things. School district debt is skyrocketed(go Frisco go they have over $2billion in debt after yesterdays bond, and they have less than 40k students). And the numbers non instructional staff has exploded. Simply put you have more staff but you don't have more teachers. Today's energy costs also don't help matters but its a blip compared to the above to.

As for charter schools. Charter schools are to depress teacher wages. Teacher wages are NOT the problem. People who tout charters also claim its hard/impossible to fire teachers. Its an outright lie. Also, there are more bad charter schools than there are good charter schools. There are plenty of charter schools in DFW that are as bad as the worst DISD schools. Then their are good charter schools but they are good because they only take ~50 students a year and are highly competitive(note this charter school does nothing to improved education, it merely shifts around the top students). Open enrollment charter school(ones that take anyone) are worse than most school districts in DFW and some even rival the worst of the worst public schools.

 

[Wreckem]

standardized test aren't the end all either. I think they are doing far more harm then good.

as it is with so much riding on the test schools teach HOW to take the test. Not what the test covers.

there have also been reports that some schools will stick to only exactly what the test covers and not everything the child should be taught.

Teachers teach to the standards that are required by law(state BOE create and adopt curriculum standards, what is to be taught, for every subject) and yes those standards are tested because of laws(state and federal).

Everyone pushes for "teachers" to be accountable. So they test test test. Some are going for as basing salary on test scores.

Its not that teachers want to teach to the test. They are required to do so by law, by district policy, who give their own curriculum blueprints/maps that must be followed, and if they want to keep their job(accountability) or get paid decently(pay for performance).

People like to blame teachers for the state of education. They scapegoat teachers. Simply put the US education system is fucked up because of politicians who know NOTHING about education and rely on high priced consultants from education publishing/consulting companies, are the ones who decide how to teach and what to teach. This is how we got the common core debacle(which is a massive financial windfall to a select few private companies who SURPRISE were the consultants the politicians used). Every problem in education stems from politicians, not teachers. There are far to many people who are not qualified that sit on State BOEs and District BOTs. Most simply do not know what the fuck they are doing. And plenty of them also have political agendas and axes to grind.

 

[fskimospy]

Which of us is the conservative now?

Our entire planet is just a fingertip away. I picture $60,000 - $75,000 is more than enough to provide for that, their college education, and financial security for their family. I mean... do you know what this money could do for the poor? Instead we let an institution siphon off an amount greater than the median family income.

Progress will be made, it's just a matter of how much you want to defy it and stand in its way. The common ideological position of many Republicans.

Hey, go for it! You realize if you are correct you can found a for profit charter network and make millions, right? You will get the same funding as the state gets per-pupil and it sounds like your costs will be drastically lower. Honestly: if you genuinely believe what you are saying is right you have a moneymaking opportunity of epic proportions at your fingertips.

Let me know how it goes, eh?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Why do students in countries like South Korea do so well?

The same reason children of Asian descent do so much better in the US.......Tiger Moms.

 

[Wreckem]

Hey, go for it! You realize if you are correct you can found a for profit charter network and make millions, right? You will get the same funding as the state gets per-pupil and it sounds like your costs will be drastically lower. Honestly: if you genuinely believe what you are saying is right you have a moneymaking opportunity of epic proportions at your fingertips.

Let me know how it goes, eh?

What he fails to take into consideration is, there are already internet based high schools. There are about a dozen(run by actual school districts no less) in Texas. He fails to take into account two income households. If no one stays at home, internet schooling, or any home schooling for that matter, does not work.

 

[nehalem256]

Costs have skyrocketed because of two things. School district debt is skyrocketed(go Frisco go they have over $2billion in debt after yesterdays bond, and they have less than 40k students). And the numbers non instructional staff has exploded. Simply put you have more staff but you don't have more teachers. Today's energy costs also don't help matters but its a blip compared to the above to.

The chart actually shows a near doubling of employees.

 

[Wreckem]

The chart actually shows a near doubling of employees.

Yes but it doesn't accurately breakdown the employees. Instructional staff has not grown, if anything, its shrunk most of the time on that chart because enrollment was down post baby boom and student to teacher ratios have increased. That said on that chart you can see enrollment going up thanks to the second baby boom, so the amount of instructional staff is about to start growing to meet the needs for growth. Growth is also running up hundreds of millions/billions in debt to build infrastructure to support the growth(again Frisco ISD is a case study for this).

 

[Jaskalas]

He fails to take into account two income households. If no one stays at home, internet schooling, or any home schooling for that matter, does not work.

Parents have no time to raise their children... a worthy challenge to my idea.

I should have asked for this sort of thing instead of snapping back at Eskimospy. You all have my apologies, and you have my thanks Wreckem for furthering the discussion.

Defeats the economic advantage if a parent stays home. Yet the children cannot be left unattended either. Are we really stuck with no better way?

 

[Fox5]

Given the cost of day care, that's actually not really all that high.

That said, results really need to be better than they are. What are other countries doing better? What did America of the past do better? Was it just being stricter and actually being willing to fail people?

 

[waggy]

Teachers teach to the standards that are required by law(state BOE create and adopt curriculum standards, what is to be taught, for every subject) and yes those standards are tested because of laws(state and federal).

Everyone pushes for "teachers" to be accountable. So they test test test. Some are going for as basing salary on test scores.

Its not that teachers want to teach to the test. They are required to do so by law, by district policy, who give their own curriculum blueprints/maps that must be followed, and if they want to keep their job(accountability) or get paid decently(pay for performance).

People like to blame teachers for the state of education. They scapegoat teachers. Simply put the US education system is fucked up because of politicians who know NOTHING about education and rely on high priced consultants from education publishing/consulting companies, are the ones who decide how to teach and what to teach. This is how we got the common core debacle(which is a massive financial windfall to a select few private companies who SURPRISE were the consultants the politicians used). Every problem in education stems from politicians, not teachers. There are far to many people who are not qualified that sit on State BOEs and District BOTs. Most simply do not know what the fuck they are doing. And plenty of them also have political agendas and axes to grind.

this i agree is part of the problem (teachers are also they are not innocent in this).

its not one side that is causing the problems. You have politicians who know very little about how to teach. They then tell teacher's this is what you need to teach and this is how. Even though that method is not tested and even if it ends up to do more harm they wont cancel it. they continue until the new "Fad" in teaching comes along and switch to that.

You have the teachers union that backs incompetent teachers and will not allow them to be fired.

then you have teachers that just don't give a damn anymore. They see these idiotic methods come and go and they have NO say in how they are to teach or what they are to teach. so they just give up.

bottom line is all 3 are to blame.

Agreed! Why do students in countries like South Korea do so well? Its because they spend a lot of time in school. They spend way more time in school then American students. Secondly, they value education. SK patents spend a lot if money on their child's education. They don't spend time after school playing sports. Nope! They continue their education up until 12-1am. They don't start out smarter than American children. Its just that they are willing to put the hours in, and this in turn makes them better.

Yes, I know about Norway. I just don't think the Norway system would work in Asia.

I don't think it's the time spent in school. in fact i think that is more of a negative then positive. Kids today are over whelmed with how much schoolwork they have. when you have 6-7 different classes a day it gets a little insane.

in asia they don't try these new bullshit ways to teach. some of the ways my kids are taught basic math blow my mind. hell the point isn't even to get the right answer just a good close guess...

 

[Argo]

until people realize that education starts in the home, the cost per pupil will continue to rise

Couldn't agree with this more.

 

[gotsmack]

standardized test aren't the end all either. I think they are doing far more harm then good.

as it is with so much riding on the test schools teach HOW to take the test. Not what the test covers.

there have also been reports that some schools will stick to only exactly what the test covers and not everything the child should be taught.

Then change the test and the teaching will change. We're in a modern age where we have computerized testing for grad school, if you get one question wrong it changes what type of question you get next. Bring this type of testing down tot he lower grades.

 

[waggy]

Then change the test and the teaching will change. We're in a modern age where we have computerized testing for grad school, if you get one question wrong it changes what type of question you get next. Bring this type of testing down tot he lower grades.

that would be great. though i don't see it happening

 

[Wreckem]

this i agree is part of the problem (teachers are also they are not innocent in this).

its not one side that is causing the problems. You have politicians who know very little about how to teach. They then tell teacher's this is what you need to teach and this is how. Even though that method is not tested and even if it ends up to do more harm they wont cancel it. they continue until the new "Fad" in teaching comes along and switch to that.

You have the teachers union that backs incompetent teachers and will not allow them to be fired.

then you have teachers that just don't give a damn anymore. They see these idiotic methods come and go and they have NO say in how they are to teach or what they are to teach. so they just give up.

bottom line is all 3 are to blame.



I don't think it's the time spent in school. in fact i think that is more of a negative then positive. Kids today are over whelmed with how much schoolwork they have. when you have 6-7 different classes a day it gets a little insane.

in asia they don't try these new bullshit ways to teach. some of the ways my kids are taught basic math blow my mind. hell the point isn't even to get the right answer just a good close guess...

Teacher unions have very little power in over half the states. In over half the states all they can do is advise their members, they cannot negotiate wages nor can they represent their members, they can advise and refer and thats about it. And the appropriate term is non renewed, not fired(teachers have annual contracts). All you have to do is follow the procedure and a school can easily none renew someone, even if they have no real reason.

The procedure is put teacher on a growth plan(what plenty of people in private business get put on if they aren't up to snuff, but haven't done something serious), then if they fail to succeed under the growth plan, recommend to the BOT they be issued a letter of intent of non renewal. The letter gives the teacher the ability to resign before being non renewed(being non renewed effectively ends ones career, something that doesn't exist in the private sector. If the person doesn't resign they get non-renewed. They can appeal this non renewal but in over half the states its merely a dog and pony show in which even if there are vaild issues to overturn the non-renewal, the non-renewal is almost never overturned.

Again it is COMPLETELY overstated(to the point that its become more myth than anything) that its impossible to fire bad teachers. Its more than possible, and it actually happens ALL the time(atleast in most states). Outside the strong Union States like NY, Illnois, CA and a hand full of others, the its because of the "evil" teacher union schtick is way overplayed as well.

 

[Wreckem]

Given the cost of day care, that's actually not really all that high.

That said, results really need to be better than they are. What are other countries doing better? What did America of the past do better? Was it just being stricter and actually being willing to fail people?

The issue is socio-economic.

Affluent schools do really good at educating their affluent students. They do so-so to not so good at educating their economically disadvantaged students, which fortunately for the schools, they don't have many.

Economically depressed school districts do poorly at educating their economically disadvantaged students who make up the majority of their student body. However, the middle class and affluent(who aren't in privates) students in these districts preform decently well.

When people talk about the US's "shitty" education system they are referring to the later. The crap the State BOEs, District BOTs, and legislatures pass are usually aimed at the economically disadvantaged districts.

A large percentage of US student enrollment are in these urban/socioeconomically depressed districts. These districts heavily weigh down the schools that perform.

Sending a high school student that reads and writes at the 4th grade level to an open enrollment charter school isn't going to change the fact the kid cannot really read or write. Since he cannot read or write he would never get into the good charter schools that might actually help. Its a catch 22. And thats why charters arent really a fix. You cannot send everyone to a limited enrollment/competitive charter. So how do charters improve education for the kids that cannot make it into a good charter school? They don't.

In Texas school districts have had the ability to change into Charter Districts since the early 1990s. To date ZERO have done so. DISD is the first to think about doing so. You do not see Caroll ISD, Highland Park ISD, Plano ISD, or any good school districts trying to switch to being an all charter district. Because public education WORKS. The problem isn't public education. The problem is fixing the challenges that face economically disadvantaged students.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I wish I paid what you guys in NJ do.

 

[Wreckem]

Then change the test and the teaching will change. We're in a modern age where we have computerized testing for grad school, if you get one question wrong it changes what type of question you get next. Bring this type of testing down tot he lower grades.

Who is going to pay for the technology in the economically disadvantaged districts and other districts that don't have the money for a computer/tablet per student or the ability to outfit every classroom with a classroom set of pcs/tablets?

That shit costs money(to buy, to maintain, and to eventually replace every X number of years), and when you are talking about large urban districts you are easily talking in the hundred million+ range for each purchase/replacement cycle. Take out more debt to pay for it? Have their already low bond ratings be lowered thus costing them even more money to service their debt?

The OP of this thread is bitching about money. Others are talking about fixing education. Some are saying its a waste to spend more money trying to fix education. Technology means spending a shit ton more money, not less. Often times technology in education becomes a massive money pit.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Or you know they could have not wasted taxpayer money, and students time, busing students around so that the "correct" racial balance in schools was achieved.

Does your toaster have a pointy white hat just like yours?

Things were ever so much better before

 

[Sunburn74]

Well lets say school lunch is 10 bucks a head. Thats around 3K USD per year on food. Then you factor in AC, factor in gas for buses, factor in electricity, heating bills, repair costs, and I could see things getting up there. Thats not even including the most expensive cost in education which is labor.

 

[shady28]

Think of the children!

In case someone is missing it, the problem with this graph is the yellow line (employees) vs the dotted purple line (students).

It looks like the number of employees in the educational sector has gone up 95% to service 5-10% more students.

People talk about schools falling apart or using really old books / equipment. Lay off 30% of the educational workers and use the saved payroll to remodel / build new / re-equip the schools.

I bet if you looked at inflation adjusted educational employee salaries, it would be a much steeper curve.

Gov't and Gov't unions are out of control. This kind of stuff is not going to get better until it gets a whole lot worse first.