autox - shifting into first?

[vshah]

Once spring rolls around, i'm really interested in taking my car out for an autox session. I've been doing lots of reading/watching videos, and it seems most of the courses confine you to gears 1-2, maybe 3.


i'm pretty decent at heel and toe downshifting in higher gears, but i've never tried shifting into first. I was always told that it wasn't good for the transmission.

How does everyone downshift into first on an autox course? Or do they just stay in second except for starting out?

Thanks,
Vivan

 

[SSSnail]

What car?

 

[overst33r]

Honestly, if your car has torque, shifting into first will net you a loss in time 9/10. Not only do you have to execute a seamless downshift into first, but you have to spend another few tenths shifting into 2nd, while possibly losing traction.

 

[thedarkwolf]

I haven't been doing it long but out of the 5 events I've gone to we have only had one coarse where some people downshifted to first and it was only a few people that did. Just didn't seem worth it to me. To much going on to have to worry about shifting too.

 

[Zenmervolt]

In most cases, downshifting into first simply isn't necessary as mariok2006 points out. In fact, older Porsche transmissions had an odd layout precisely because of this.

R 2 4
|-+-|
1 3 5

The reason for this layout was that on racetracks the cars would only use 1st when starting out and once underway would only use gears 2 through 5. By using this uncharacteristic arrangement, Porsche eliminated one of two "dog-leg" shifts and were able to decrease shift times slightly. Most shift layouts had a dog-leg 2-3 and 4-5 shift while the "Porsche pattern" had dog-leg 1-2 and 3-4 shifts. Since the 1-2 shift was not normally encountered in racing Porsche drivers effectively only had to deal with one dog-leg shift as opposed to everyone else's two.

Modern cars (made in the past 25-ish years) should have a synchronized 1st gear which makes downshifting into first no harder on the transmission than any other downshift. The idea that shifting into first while moving is harder on the transmission comes from the days when, for cost reasons, most transmissions used a non-synchronized first gear. It's more difficult to execute a smooth downshift into a non-synchronized gear and the idea that a driver should only select first when stopped came into common use.

ZV

 

[kornphlake]

My tranny has a synchronized 1st but it's still tough to get the stick into 1st unless I'm at a stop or nearly stopped, I've got to double clutch to get into first with any amount of speed. It could just be my tranny though, in 1st gear I hit redline at about 25 mph.

 

[DietDrThunder]

Here is Johnathon Knapp at the Bremerton MonsterX with his 1966 Chevrolet Corvair. The course was about twice as long as a regular autox course. Most cars' times were in the 90 - 100 second range. A few cars ran under 90 seconds. This run was 88.087. The run starts at around 1 minute 20.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aJ_-pUCtrg&feature=player_embedded#

 

[vshah]

sorry, car is an 07 civic si, so no torque.
in terms of power/torque, it would be ideal to stay above 5k whenever possible, but i See how the delay caused by 2 shifts might negate any advantage. 2nd is pretty short, anyway. i'm sure It will take some trial and error, and i'll have a better idea once i actually have some idea of the speeds on a course.

fyi:

 

[Zenmervolt]

My tranny has a synchronized 1st but it's still tough to get the stick into 1st unless I'm at a stop or nearly stopped, I've got to double clutch to get into first with any amount of speed. It could just be my tranny though, in 1st gear I hit redline at about 25 mph.

It's not uncommon for the 1st gear synchro to be weaker than the other synchros as manufacturers know that shifting into first at speed isn't commonly done.

ZV

 

[overst33r]

sorry, car is an 07 civic si, so no torque.
in terms of power/torque, it would be ideal to stay above 5k whenever possible, but i See how the delay caused by 2 shifts might negate any advantage. 2nd is pretty short, anyway. i'm sure It will take some trial and error, and i'll have a better idea once i actually have some idea of the speeds on a course.

fyi:

My car has a similar powerband compared to yours. I've been to many AutoXs and never bothered to shift into first. Neither did the fastest S2000 (skilled/seasoned drivers).

Although sometimes it does feel like you're completely out of the powerband when corners of 25mph or less are present. Personally even if it was faster to use 1st, I would rather avoid the abuse a hard 1 to 2 shift causes to the car.

 

[vshah]

My car has a similar powerband compared to yours. I've been to many AutoXs and never bothered to shift into first. Neither did the fastest S2000 (skilled/seasoned drivers).

Although sometimes it does feel like you're completely out of the powerband when corners of 25mph or less are present. Personally even if it was faster to use 1st, I would rather avoid the abuse a hard 1 to 2 shift causes to the car.

ah, thanks for the insight. i'm curious, do you swap out tires for autox? my all seasons would be pretty shitty, i'm sure.

 

[NutBucket]

Good all-seasons do have excellent grip(Advan S.4, Potenza 960, etc) but of course will never be as good as a true summer tire.

 

[vshah]

Good all-seasons do have excellent grip(Advan S.4, Potenza 960, etc) but of course will never be as good as a true summer tire.

i have bridgestone potenza g019s at the moment... they don't hold a candle to the michelin summer tires i had before. i hate living in the northeast.

 

[overst33r]

ah, thanks for the insight. i'm curious, do you swap out tires for autox? my all seasons would be pretty shitty, i'm sure.

I don't swap tires, I just use whatever I have on the car at the time. To be honest, at this point your main focus should be your driving skills, not so much the equipment on your car. You will soon find out that equipment only really matters if you want to compete (and are good enough to do so).

I recommend you get as many ride-alongs as you can with experienced drivers, as well as have them sit with you in your car so they can suggest improvements to your driving. Helps tremendously. Plus at first it will give you a chance to learn the course. It's all a sea of cones your first few runs!

 

[coxmaster]

I don't swap tires, I just use whatever I have on the car at the time. To be honest, at this point your main focus should be your driving skills, not so much the equipment on your car. You will soon find out that equipment only really matters if you want to compete (and are good enough to do so).

Just a question from another noob that might get into AutoX.. How much does it affect your tire wear? Keep in mine, i drive more aggressively than most people already. Im assuming some Autox wouldnt really hurt much

 

[overst33r]

Just a question from another noob that might get into AutoX.. How much does it affect your tire wear? Keep in mine, i drive more aggressively than most people already. Im assuming some Autox wouldnt really hurt much

Not much in my experience, as long as they are properly inflated. Then again my rears only lasted me 13k and that included a track day.

If you go,try to find an experienced driver and ask him what pressures they recommend. Usually close to 40psi in the fronts. Depends a lot on the car.

Overall, I'd say a few autox's in a year will have a negligible effect on tire wear. At least in my experience. You basically only get about 10mins of "track time".

 

[overst33r]

Anyone who autox's and hasn't read this should.

http://www.tirerack.com/features/solo2/handbook.htm

"Before you fix the car, fix the driver"

 

[coxmaster]

Anyone who autox's and hasn't read this should.

http://www.tirerack.com/features/solo2/handbook.htm

"Before you fix the car, fix the driver"

Sweet, thanks for the link!