Audyssey question...can't figure this out.

[ManBearPig]

Ok, so I've ran Audyssey 2EQ a few different times just to make sure everything is even, and there's one thing i cannot figure out.

I have a 7.1 system, and all the speakers are placed pretty evenly (as even as i could get) apart and everything is more or less symmetric in the room, EXCEPT, on the left side of the room there is a 3 person couch (and in the back corner of the room there is a tiny piano...i know, not optimal).

Neither of these things is in the line of the speakers, although i know they will affect the overall acoustics of the room. However, i don't know if/how Audyssey corrects for acoustics by using decibel changes in the speakers.

Anywho, on to my question...if the damn speakers are placed evenly and everything is symmetric, WHY does Audyssey always lower the db of the right side while raising the db of the left side (lets say front left is -5, front right -6, left -4, right -6, surround back left -4, surround back right -7)?!?!!?!?

The logical thinker and perfectionist in my wants each pair to be the same number, but i know nothing about sound systems and how this stuff all works. Thanks for helping me understand!

 

[NutBucket]

Well here's the better question. How does it sound before/after calibration?

 

[jtvang125]

I dont remember the exact audyssey settings on mine but they're not all the same either. My right surround was way off from the others. Probably cause it's right against the wall and reflecting off of it while the left side sits wide open.

 

[kalrith]

Are you putting the microphone just in your main seating area? I just want to make sure you're not putting it over at the 3-person couch. This pdf shows where to place the microphones.

And NutBucket is right. The big question is whether it sounds better post calibration and not what the specific numbers are.

The only change I made after running Audyssey MultEQ was to increase the crossover of my speakers to 60 Hz. It had my mains at full range and my center at 40 Hz, which I knew was too low for those speakers.

 

[NutBucket]

Hmm, I may have to recalibrate mine. The instructions that came with my Denon implied only 8 seating positions would be measured.

 

[kalrith]

Hmm, I may have to recalibrate mine. The instructions that came with my Denon implied only 8 seating positions would be measured.

If you have MultEQ XT, then 8 seating positions is the max. I think the only way to get higher than that is with the pro version.

 

[ManBearPig]

Are you putting the microphone just in your main seating area? I just want to make sure you're not putting it over at the 3-person couch. This pdf shows where to place the microphones.

And NutBucket is right. The big question is whether it sounds better post calibration and not what the specific numbers are.

The only change I made after running Audyssey MultEQ was to increase the crossover of my speakers to 60 Hz. It had my mains at full range and my center at 40 Hz, which I knew was too low for those speakers.

Yes sir, I followed the instructions just like the PDF says. I did not put it on the three person couch to the left (I've done that before, DEFINITELY didn't sound right lol).

I turned off the audyssey equalizer a couple days ago (and manual one, so the equalizer was effectively off altogether) because I thought it sounded like I was getting more bass or something on the speakers on the right side of the room. I definitely did not think it sounded as good with it off, but it seemed like that weird base problem was gone. I think things were sounding out of whack with it on because I had significantly changed the room since I ran the audyssey 2EQ the first time.

It sounds like the bass is more even this time and it does indeed sound better overall, so that's good. It's just that my mind is telling me that I should be hearing different volumes from different speakers because the db levels are all different, which i know is not true, but I'm weird and I actively think about it while watching stuff lol.

Can anyone explain crossover to me please? I think that may have been the problem, because I'm pretty sure audyssey does change that. Is it just the point at which the bass is taken over from the speakers to the actual bass itself or something?

Thanks a ton everyone!

P.S. I love messing around with this sound system. It's like building another computer lol. I wish I could upgrade (already ). Cannot wait til I'm rich(er?) so I can afford it though haha.

 

[NutBucket]

Then I'm confused because the PDF you linked shows 12 positions. You're right, I only have the EX (AVR 790) hence the 8. What I don't get is why positions 1-6 are arranged "independently" of the seating configuration. I calibrated mine at each seating position.

 

[kalrith]

Can anyone explain crossover to me please? I think that may have been the problem, because I'm pretty sure audyssey does change that. Is it just the point at which the bass is taken over from the speakers to the actual bass itself or something?

There are two main settings regarding bass handling. One is the crossover setting for your speakers. This will only send frequencies that are above that number. My crossover is set to 60 Hz, so nothing below 60 Hz is sent to the speakers. As a basic rule of thumb, floorstanders can be set to 60 Hz, large bookshelves to 80 Hz, small bookshelves to 100 Hz, and satellites (think computer speakers) to 120 Hz. In my situation, Audyssey set my floorstanders as full range (which means they play all frequencies) and my center to 40 Hz. I had the crossover set to 80 Hz on my old receiver, but I thought I'd use 60 Hz to see how I like it, and I like it very much.

The other is your sub frequency (whatever its called on your receiver). See this as the ceiling for your sub. Mine is set to 80 Hz, which means that only frequencies below 80 Hz are sent to the sub. As a general rule you want this number to be 10-20 Hz higher than the crossover for your front three.

Changing these two items does nothing to the rest of the Audyssey configuration. These are the only two settings I changed.

Then I'm confused because the PDF you linked shows 12 positions. You're right, I only have the EX (AVR 790) hence the 8. What I don't get is why positions 1-6 are arranged "independently" of the seating configuration. I calibrated mine at each seating position.

I'm not sure exactly why the PDF shows 12 positions, but you can see from the color of the positions that 1-6 are for one level (MultEQ), 7-8 are for the next level (MultEQ XT), and 9-12 are for the next level (MultEQ Pro?).

If you have 2 rows of 3 seats that are centrally located, then you would do the first 6 positions in those seats. If you just have 3 seats, then doing 3 of the positions in front of the seats will help to create a zone of well-calibrated sound. If you have 3 seats and only do 3 readings, you'll have worse results than if you surround those 3 seats with 5 additional readings in front and behind the seats. I did mine exactly like positions 1-6, and the results are superb.

BTW, here's a great step-by-step guide to using Audyssey, compliments of avsforum. Reading it would probably answer a lot of questions that both you guys have.

 

[NutBucket]

Gracias. I'm pretty satisfied with how my system sounds but I guess there's always room for improvement.

 

[ManBearPig]

Ah, thanks a lot kalrith. I will check that link out now. It seems like all my speakers are set to 150 Hz. Odd...I'm pretty sure audyssey set that. Maybe I should change it to 120 Hz since mine are satellites? Hmm...gonna check it out when I get back home.

 

[kalrith]

Ah, thanks a lot kalrith. I will check that link out now. It seems like all my speakers are set to 150 Hz. Odd...I'm pretty sure audyssey set that. Maybe I should change it to 120 Hz since mine are satellites? Hmm...gonna check it out when I get back home.

Well, that was just a rule of thumb. I think the avsforum Audyssey guide says it's fine to increase the crossover frequency (i.e. raising it from 100 to 120) but absolutely not OK to decrease the crossover frequency (i.e. reducing it from 150 to 120).

What speakers do you have?

 

[ManBearPig]

Well, that was just a rule of thumb. I think the avsforum Audyssey guide says it's fine to increase the crossover frequency (i.e. raising it from 100 to 120) but absolutely not OK to decrease the crossover frequency (i.e. reducing it from 150 to 120).

What speakers do you have?

http://www.newegg.com/product/produc...82E16882120143

 

[kalrith]

Are all of your speakers' crossovers set to 150? My receiver sets the crossover in pairs, so the mains, center, and each pair of surrounds would have its own separate crossover. If yours is like that, I would think that your larger speakers would be set to 120 or lower by Audyssey. However, like I stated before, it's not OK to decrease the crossover from Audyssey, but it is OK to increase it.

 

[ManBearPig]

Are all of your speakers' crossovers set to 150? My receiver sets the crossover in pairs, so the mains, center, and each pair of surrounds would have its own separate crossover. If yours is like that, I would think that your larger speakers would be set to 120 or lower by Audyssey. However, like I stated before, it's not OK to decrease the crossover from Audyssey, but it is OK to increase it.

Aye, you are right, i failed to mention that theyre in pairs. I dont really have larger speakers TBH, theyre all about the same (small) size. Guess i wont mess with it then, thanks man.

 

[Anubis]

Are all of your speakers' crossovers set to 150? My receiver sets the crossover in pairs, so the mains, center, and each pair of surrounds would have its own separate crossover. If yours is like that, I would think that your larger speakers would be set to 120 or lower by Audyssey. However, like I stated before, it's not OK to decrease the crossover from Audyssey, but it is OK to increase it.

because im curious why is it not OK to decrease it?

i checked my settings last night because of this thread, my fronts are set to 40, center is at 60 and the rears are at 60 or 80. i don't run a sub which is why im assuming the fronts are set that low and i run full size rears

 

[kalrith]

because im curious why is it not OK to decrease it?

i checked my settings last night because of this thread, my fronts are set to 40, center is at 60 and the rears are at 60 or 80. i don't run a sub which is why im assuming the fronts are set that low and i run full size rears

Put simply, Audyssey tests the lowest frequency your speakers can audibly transmit and sets the crossover accordingly. If Audyssey thinks your speakers should be set at 80 and you change them to 60, then the receiver will be sending signals to your speakers that it doesn't do a good job with.

Put more specifically, here are some excerpts from the afore-mentioned avsforum Audyssey guide:

1. Raising the crossover frequency from the calibrated setting does not affect the channel correction implemented by Audyssey.

2. Lowering the crossover frequency from the calibrated setting is not recommended.
a. Audyssey will not provide correction to the satellite speakers lower than the frequency it measures as the -3 dB point.
3. Audyssey recommends that all speakers be set to “Small” (i.e. not Full Band) by selecting a crossover frequency. This will re-direct the frequencies below the crossover point to the subwoofer, resulting in improved headroom for the main amplifier and 8x higher MultEQ filter resolution in the subwoofer channel (e.g. flatter bass).
a. Setting the speakers to “Small” with a 60 Hz – 80 Hz crossover is a good starting point, assuming the post-calibration crossover setting is 60 Hz or lower.

4. For additional details about the crossover selection process, see “Note 1” below.

Note 1 – Crossover Settings
Audyssey MultEQ measures in-room response of each speaker, determining the lowest the frequency they can reasonably produce. This is known as the -3dB frequency point. The -3dB frequency point is used by the receiver / processor to calculate the speaker settings (Large / Small) and set the crossover points, if applicable. The bass management system in the receiver / processor then performs the high and low pass filtering centered at the crossover frequency. The important point is that Audyssey does not set the crossovers. Unfortunately, current receiver / processor models do not display or report the -3dB frequency point measured for each speaker. The only information available is whether or not the speaker was designated “Large” or “Small”, and any crossover point selected.

Receiver / processor manufacturers use a specific Frequency Decision Point (FDP) to classify speakers as “Large” (full-range) or “Small” (less than full-range). The selection of the FDP varies among manufacturers and models, but 40 Hz is becoming the standard. If the -3 dB frequency measured by Audyssey is below the FDP, the speaker is classified as “Large’. If the -3 dB frequency measured by Audyssey is above the FDP, the speaker is classified as “Small”, and a crossover frequency is selected.

Each receiver / processor has various crossover points from which to choose. Typically, the first crossover setting above the -3 dB point measured by Audyssey is chosen. For example: If your receiver has crossover settings of 40, 60, 80, 100 and 120 Hz, and the speaker is set to “Small” with an 80 Hz crossover, that is an indication the - 3dB point is somewhere between 60 and 80 Hz. Crossover selections in increments of 10 Hz are becoming more common, which allows greater flexibility.

 

[ManBearPig]

Thanks for the info, that's interesting. But how come the value audyssey finds and the values given by the manufacturer are different?

Also, let's say I increase the height of a pair of speakers (gonna put the sides on stands), would it be beneficial to run audyssey again?

 

[kalrith]

Thanks for the info, that's interesting. But how come the value audyssey finds and the values given by the manufacturer are different?

Also, let's say I increase the height of a pair of speakers (gonna put the sides on stands), would it be beneficial to run audyssey again?

Manufacturers have a way of stating their "values" in a way that seems favorable to the product, or in other words they artificially inflate their numbers for marketing purposes.

Absolutely. Any time you move your speakers, you should run Audyssey again.

Also, in case you guys don't already know this, the first location you use for Audyssey is the one that's used for all the distance measurements. Therefore, if you have a 3-person couch, you'd want to use the middle seat or possibly the one that's in a direct line with the center speaker for your first location. None of the other positions have any bearing on the distance measurements Audyssey uses.

 

[Fallen Kell]

As for they the speakers may have different db settings is because there are differences in the SPL level output of the speaker in relation to the other speakers in your setup. The speaker might be angled 1-5 degrees differently from the others, the terminal posts might have not make as good of a contact with your speaker wire, there might be extra resistance over the speaker wire compared to the other speakers, the drivers might have been manufactured on a day with higher humidity which caused some extra oxidation to occur to the soldered parts.... There are a billion and one reasons why there might be a slight difference in output level from one speaker to the next. This is why you need to do SPL level matching in the first place, and why Audyssey does it for you are part of its program...

 

[ManBearPig]

Jeez that's pretty crazy, I had no idea. Thanks Kell.

I should probably go check the terminal post-speaker wire connection...you made me nervous haha.

I thought they were hit or miss though. As in, if you put them in right, you get sound, if you don't put them in right, you get no sound. Am I wrong?

 

[slashbinslashbash]

Something that I haven't seen mentioned often enough in this thread is room response. That is what Audyssey is all about. Every room is different, and there are lots of things that can affect how a speaker sounds. Is there a framed photo with a glass panel hanging on the wall on one side of the room, but not the other? Is there a shelf full of books? Is there a rug? Windows with curtains? (Pulling the curtains open or closed will make a difference.) Is one side of the room on an outside wall of the house, while the others are inside walls? Is there an air vent close to one of the speakers but not the others? Does one side of the room open up into the kitchen while the other side is walled off? Are all the speakers placed perfectly symmetrically, or is one closer to the corner than the other? All of these things matter MUCH more than tiny things like speaker wire resistance.

You can take $10,000 speakers, put them in a crappy room and they will sound crappy. You can take $100 speakers, put them in a good room and they will sound awesome (especially if you have something like Audyssey to intelligently adapt them to the room for you). Trust the system, and don't worry about a couple of decibels here or there... 99% of people can't hear a difference +/- 2dB anyway.

 

[ManBearPig]

Let's say I only watch tv from one spot. In that case, should I put the mic in one spot each time? I've always wondered this.

 

[kalrith]

Let's say I only watch tv from one spot. In that case, should I put the mic in one spot each time? I've always wondered this.

You want to use that spot as your first location, but it's best to surround that location with as many readings as possible. Just follow the afore-linked PDF for locations 1-3, and you should be fine.