Audiophiles, start your engines! Is ~160kbps AAC transparent to you?

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RaynorWolfcastle

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
8,968
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I just ripped a CD of Mozart's Requiem and put a ~175kbps version on my Ipod. To be honest on my modest setup the compression is completely transparent to me (although I haven't ABXed it very rigorously). I thought some of you might want to listen in though :).

There are 3 files on my server:
The original
Unknown 1
Unknown 2

One of the unknown files is exactly identical to the original, the other has been compressed to ~175kbps AAC then returned to FLAC.

Here are the nitty gritty details for those of you that are interested:
The source is a Telarc CD of Robert Shaw and the Antlanta Symphony Orchestra & Chorus playing Mozart's Requiem. Specifically this is track 3, Sequenz: Nr. 1: Dies irae

The CD is ripped using EAC's secure mode ripping.

The unknown file is then compressed using Nero's AAC encoder using the following options -profile LC -quality high -vbr normal.

I then converted both files through foobar2000's diskwriter to lossless FLAC format. I then made a copy of the original which I renamed. I then uploaded all three files to the server.

I urge you not to look at file sizes because I didn't try any fancy obfuscation tricks to change file size. Frankly, I don't care if you cheat and that's why I'm not making a poll since it's easy to cheat and guess which file is which.

For those of you that do choose to post, it would be kind of cool if you could post your setup (sound card and speakers/earphones) and around where you could tell the difference, if at all.

Warning to the bandwidth deficient, the files are 10 MB each
 
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deftron

Lifer
Nov 17, 2000
10,868
1
0
Setup? Adobe Audition ;)

Link


Actually I can't tell the difference soundwise.
Athena Bookshelf speakers
Soundblaster Live
Kenwood Amp


 
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Green84061

Senior member
Mar 17, 2005
235
0
0
I really cant tell the difference but I didnt listen to hard, Ill try again once my new headphones come in.
 
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DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
This is one reason why I ripped my collection to lossless FLAC.

Not because I think I have perfect hearing, but because using a 100% exact copy of the CD audio I don't have to try to find the bitrate that will always be transparent to me.

Listening to FLAC audio, if I hear some artifact, I can relax and realize it comes from the original recording not from the compression.

Peace of mind at 300 MB per CD.
 
PottedMeat

PottedMeat

Lifer
Apr 17, 2002
12,363
475
126
Soundcard: Turtle Beach Santa Cruz - 41.93 Drivers
- EQ Disabled / 3D Enhancement Disabled
Headphones: MDR-V6


The first time I listened to them ( Orig vs. #1 ), I thought #1 was missing something - but not much. I'm no audiophile but it sounded like #1 was missing higher frequencies - I dont really know how else to describe it. Then Orig vs. #2, I thought they sounded the same.

Now after the 3rd or 4th time around listening to them, its all the same.
 
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RaynorWolfcastle

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
8,968
16
81
Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
This is one reason why I ripped my collection to lossless FLAC.

Not because I think I have perfect hearing, but because using a 100% exact copy of the CD audio I don't have to try to find the bitrate that will always be transparent to me.

Listening to FLAC audio, if I hear some artifact, I can relax and realize it comes from the original recording not from the compression.

Peace of mind at 300 MB per CD.
Click to expand...
For portable audio it does matter, especially if you have an ultraportable. I could probably dip down to 128 kbps and maybe even below before I could tell the difference on my Ipod Nano w/EX-71SL canalphones.
 
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deftron

Lifer
Nov 17, 2000
10,868
1
0
Weird I just noticed that no matter what file you put in
Auditions first track, those "artifacts" show up at certain zoom levels (only on the first track)
Even if you use the original file :confused:


So disregard my other post ... Audition is messed up
 
EvilYoda

EvilYoda

Lifer
Apr 1, 2001
21,198
9
81
If I'm around, I'll give it a shot tomorrow...it'd be tested on an nForce soundstorm digitally output to a denon 3805 playing on dynaudio contour S1.4's.

<--Goes off to do his bi-weekly hunt for a good deal on a processor via audiogon.
 
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DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Originally posted by: SampSon
Without some serious sound reproduction, most can't tell the difference.
Click to expand...
Agreed, I listen to Polk RTi28's in my home office, and the 128 kbps WMA from Napster (now 192 kbps) doesn't sound glaringly worse than my FLAC CD rips.

I have noticed artifacts (blurring/smearing) in the past listening to a few of my favorite songs from CD, even as 256 kbps MP3s. Even though it was 1 song out of 100 it's still enough to annoy me.

Besides, storage is cheap now.
 
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DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle
Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
This is one reason why I ripped my collection to lossless FLAC.
Click to expand...
For portable audio it does matter, especially if you have an ultraportable. I could probably dip down to 128 kbps and maybe even below before I could tell the difference on my Ipod Nano w/EX-71SL canalphones.
Click to expand...
True, for filling up my Zen Xtra I transcoded from FLAC to 192 kbps LAME MP3. I figured listening while riding a noisy lifecycle I could deal with an artifact or six :)
 
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deftron

Lifer
Nov 17, 2000
10,868
1
0
Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle
Originally posted by: deftron
See ... check it :confused:
Click to expand...
Are you referring to the dots? Those are probably artifacts in the display and/or graphing, not the audio.
Click to expand...

Yeah.. I think so.

Thought it was the clipped highs and lows


Anyways, they all sound the same to me.
But I'm not an audiophile ... All my music is on vinyl.

 
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feelingshorter

Platinum Member
May 5, 2004
2,439
0
71
I wouldnt have to listen to it to already know i wouldnt be able ot tell the difference. I have mp3s at 128-320 bitrates and they all sound good. I feel like encoding all my audio to mp3pro 128 bitrate but i dont know if thats too low. I still cant tell the difference listening wise. Mp3pro encoder is really good and does a better job than LAME.
 
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myusername

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2003
5,046
0
0
sennheiser 555's w/ NForce2 onboard audio .. been so long since the build I don't remember what the name is. no amp. sounded the same to me. I have normal hearing response, but I really can't tell the difference beyond 128 mp3. I do use FLAC though, for the reasons Dave mentioned. It's easier to get used to an audio glitch if you know it's supposed to be there, and for the simple psychology of believing that if you are building a library, you should stock it with the best stock you can.

It's silly, because my music library is never going to be unearthed in some future archaeolgical dig, and I will be the only one who cares about my songs, but nonetheless, it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling to think that I am somehow fighting entropy in my own insignificant way.
 
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feelingshorter

Platinum Member
May 5, 2004
2,439
0
71
Originally posted by: deftron
Anyways, from the graph, you can tell Dies irea 2 is the (slightly) different one.

link
Click to expand...

weird, it looks like the 1 and 2nd one look alike and the 3rd one is different. Look at the horiziontal line. The 1st and 2nd one curves a little bit and the 3rd one is just straight.
 
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DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Don't forget too that as long as you make backups (I use a spare pair of HDs) you should never have to rip your CDs again. Even if a more advanced lossless compression is designed some day your FLACs can be losslessy transcoded to it.

And for portables, you can keep transcoding your collection as often as you like to new formats or different bitrates, without any lossy-to-lossy conversion quality loss.

Go with FLAC, it's keen! :)
 
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RaynorWolfcastle

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
8,968
16
81
Originally posted by: feelingshorter
I wouldnt have to listen to it to already know i wouldnt be able ot tell the difference. I have mp3s at 128-320 bitrates and they all sound good. I feel like encoding all my audio to mp3pro 128 bitrate but i dont know if thats too low. I still cant tell the difference listening wise. Mp3pro encoder is really good and does a better job than LAME.
Click to expand...

I'd look at HE-AAC (or Vorbis) before MP3pro. MP3pro is largely considered a dead format and is outperformed at low bitrates by HE-AAC. In addition, MP3pro is a closed format.
 
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Xylitol

Diamond Member
Aug 28, 2005
6,617
0
76
ARRG... just deleted it

My brother thinks it's #1 that's AAC, thought he heard some artifacts

FLAC->WAV->Creative Nomad Zen NX headphone out->Cardas HPI->MINT amp->AKG K501
 
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