Audiophiles, help!

giantpinkbunnyhead

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2005
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OK, so in trying to choose a suitable receiver I ran across this problem:

One particular unit states 140W per channel, with 115W RMS.

What's the difference? What's RMS? What does it mean to me? Is one more important than the other when comparing units?

Currently I'm wavering between the Yamaha 5960 and 5990, if that helps. I like the 5990 because it will upconvert to HDMI while the 5960 has a far more attractive price.
 

CombatChuk

Platinum Member
Jul 19, 2000
2,008
3
81
Originally posted by: giantpinkbunnyhead
OK, so in trying to choose a suitable receiver I ran across this problem:

One particular unit states 140W per channel, with 115W RMS.

What's the difference? What's RMS? What does it mean to me? Is one more important than the other when comparing units?

Currently I'm wavering between the Yamaha 5960 and 5990, if that helps. I like the 5990 because it will upconvert to HDMI while the 5960 has a far more attractive price.

RMS = Root Mean Square

RMS is used for comparison with a DC voltage source. It is considered to be an actual rating for "real power"
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
WPC is meaningless marketing BS.

Most speakers are efficient enough that almost any receiver over $100 will have more than enough watts per channel to drive them.
 

YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Moderator<br>A/V & Home Theater<br>Elite member
Aug 6, 2001
31,205
45
91
Lots or receivers have totally bogus specs so it's kind of hard to say, even within the same company there can be pretty inconsistent labeling.

Pretty much everything says 100watts/channel which is pretty bogus if you're talking about all channels driven 20hz-20khz and low THD.

What kind of speakers do you have? If you really need 140W driving them you might want to get a real amp to give you some real quality power.

Wattage is a pretty shady spec to pick a receiver on.
 

giantpinkbunnyhead

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2005
3,251
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Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
Lots or receivers have totally bogus specs so it's kind of hard to say, even within the same company there can be pretty inconsistent labeling.

Pretty much everything says 100watts/channel which is pretty bogus if you're talking about all channels driven 20hz-20khz and low THD.

What kind of speakers do you have? If you really need 140W driving them you might want to get a real amp to give you some real quality power.

Wattage is a pretty shady spec to pick a receiver on.

Well the speakers were originally going to be some B&W 300 series... then I took a listen to some of the 600 series and now I think I'll be getting 602's or 603's with matching center and the rears will probably be 600's. I'll put either a 8" or 10" sub with it; haven't decided on that part yet.

I also really like the idea of having the HDMI-converting receiver (less wires that way) but I'll have to spend a lot for that, even in the best case scenario, so I want to be sure the rest of the receiver is worth the inflated price.

edit: besides desired input/outputs, what else is helpful in choosing the right receiver?
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
51,249
7,063
136
Ignore Peak and PMPO. If it's a decent quality amp/receiver, take RMS and subtract 20% (RMS * .8) and you've got your basic wattage :)
 
Sep 29, 2004
18,656
68
91
Originally posted by: giantpinkbunnyhead
OK, so in trying to choose a suitable receiver I ran across this problem:

One particular unit states 140W per channel, with 115W RMS.

What's the difference? What's RMS? What does it mean to me? Is one more important than the other when comparing units?

Currently I'm wavering between the Yamaha 5960 and 5990, if that helps. I like the 5990 because it will upconvert to HDMI while the 5960 has a far more attractive price.

root mean square (RMS)
Skipping the description ... RMS is always something like 70% of peek.

Also, if you are looking at wattages on receivers, please stop. A 70 watt Harman Kardan will kill a 120 watt Pioneer in terms of output.

There's more to amplification than "rated power"
 
Sep 29, 2004
18,656
68
91
Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
WPC is meaningless marketing BS.

Most speakers are efficient enough that almost any receiver over $100 will have more than enough watts per channel to drive them.

On avsforum, someone asked why the receiver is rated at 110*7, but he manual says max power draw from 120 volts is 300 watts .... made me laugh.
 

giantpinkbunnyhead

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2005
3,251
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Originally posted by: IHateMyJob2004
There's more to amplification than "rated power"

I'm sure there is... I just didn't understand that part about the differing wattages. In any case... I'm still new to receivers so educate me... how can I pick out a suitable one more wisely?
 
Sep 29, 2004
18,656
68
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Originally posted by: giantpinkbunnyhead
Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
edit: besides desired input/outputs, what else is helpful in choosing the right receiver?

At a minimum, get digital inputs for the audio channels. That's part of your besides though.

Alsmo all receivers hace Dolby and DTS and bla bla bla. HIGH END (and I mean high end) receivers are not THX certified as anyone that is going to pay for one knows that the THX ratings are laughable at that level.

DO NOT BUY a Harman Kardan 635! They are a nightmare. They actually crash alot. Litterally lock up. One report of someone not being able to power down/up again.

Pioneer Elite amplifiers are better than plain ol' Pioneer models.

BOttom line, go listen to the recevier you like.
 
Sep 29, 2004
18,656
68
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Originally posted by: giantpinkbunnyhead
Originally posted by: IHateMyJob2004
There's more to amplification than "rated power"

I'm sure there is... I just didn't understand that part about the differing wattages. In any case... I'm still new to receivers so educate me... how can I pick out a suitable one more wisely?

Blue Ray will have 7.1 encoded on the disks, so it makes sense to get a 7.1 receiver now in my opinion. Sounds like you are aonly doing a 5.1 set up though.

What is your budget?
What do you listen to more (movies or music)? This directly relates to if your cocnern should be sound quality or surround quality.
 

giantpinkbunnyhead

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2005
3,251
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Yes, right now I'm going for 5.1. I might add more speakers later but for now 5.1 will work. I listen to music and watch movies pretty much equally... Yeah, right about 50/50. My budget.... for receiver/speakers/DVD or HDDVD player anyway, is $2-$3K depending on what I find.
 
Sep 29, 2004
18,656
68
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Originally posted by: giantpinkbunnyhead
Yes, right now I'm going for 5.1. I might add more speakers later but for now 5.1 will work. I listen to music and watch movies pretty much equally... Yeah, right about 50/50. My budget.... for receiver/speakers/DVD or HDDVD player anyway, is $2-$3K depending on what I find.

I think Toshiba is about to release the next version of their HD-DVD player. Might want to look into this and wait.

So, about $2K for speakers and a receiver. That pretty much eliminates the Pioneer Elite line.

Oh, how big is your room?

If I spent $400-$500 on a receiver, I'd strongly consider the Pioneer 1016. The best of the non-elites. The 816 is also good and will save you some cash.

I am currently looking for a $600 reciever. Going on EBay can save you alot on last years models. Like Pioneer ELite models. The 56 is awesome, but is probably to costly for you. You might be able to sang a 54 for around $500 thoguh.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
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Originally posted by: giantpinkbunnyhead
I'm sure there is... I just didn't understand that part about the differing wattages. In any case... I'm still new to receivers so educate me... how can I pick out a suitable one more wisely?
You can ignore the wattage ratings, they're all going to be good enough.

Pick based on features and user reviews. You can find reviews at Amazon, Crutchfield.com, AVSForum.com

For HDMI switching, one thing to look at is whether the receiver does upconverting of its composite and S-video inputs to HDMI, and whether it shows the receiver menus over HDMI, the cheaper receivers do not.

Also try to find reviews that specifically mention the HDMI switching, I've seen user reviews saying HDMI sent through receiver X was not as reliable as a direct connection.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Pay no attention to the power listed by the receiver. Most likely it is way overstated. This is what separates a good receiver from a bad one - the power of their amps.

You'd be very happy if you speant at least 1000 bucks on the receiver. Normally when you get to that level the amps are of sufficient power for home theater. Even then, many of them are underpowered.
 

Rubycon

Madame President
Aug 10, 2005
17,768
485
126
Originally posted by: Howard
Originally posted by: woowoo
Peak x .707 = RMS
How do you explain the tiny systems that claim a peak of 2000W?

They are confusing instantaneous, burst, etc. power (meaningless!) with mathematical term peak when dealing with unballasted sinusoidal waveforms.

It's better to concentrate on the important things like a stiffly regulated power supply. ;)

 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: MS Dawn
It's better to concentrate on the important things like a stiffly regulated power supply. ;)

With a huge honking 50 pound transformer and capacitors the size of coke cans.
:thumbsup:
 

Rubycon

Madame President
Aug 10, 2005
17,768
485
126
Originally posted by: spidey07

With a huge honking 50 pound transformer and capacitors the size of coke cans.
:thumbsup:

50 pounds? Try 300kg! :p The caps are about paint pail sized too!

All to be replaced with SWPS tech. Imagine a 50kW amp weighing less than 50 kg. Yep, on Earth too. :Q
 

Demon-Xanth

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
20,551
2
81
Peak: almost useful, it measures from the absolute peak end of the waveform
RMS: useful, it measures the real power sent out
PMPO: the equivilent of saying that a camera's flash is 50,000W of power

Edit:
Peak to peak: measuring the distance from the negative most peak to the positive most peak

<-- electronic tech, not an audiophile.
 

YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Moderator<br>A/V & Home Theater<br>Elite member
Aug 6, 2001
31,205
45
91
Originally posted by: giantpinkbunnyhead
Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
Lots or receivers have totally bogus specs so it's kind of hard to say, even within the same company there can be pretty inconsistent labeling.

Pretty much everything says 100watts/channel which is pretty bogus if you're talking about all channels driven 20hz-20khz and low THD.

What kind of speakers do you have? If you really need 140W driving them you might want to get a real amp to give you some real quality power.

Wattage is a pretty shady spec to pick a receiver on.

Well the speakers were originally going to be some B&W 300 series... then I took a listen to some of the 600 series and now I think I'll be getting 602's or 603's with matching center and the rears will probably be 600's. I'll put either a 8" or 10" sub with it; haven't decided on that part yet.

I also really like the idea of having the HDMI-converting receiver (less wires that way) but I'll have to spend a lot for that, even in the best case scenario, so I want to be sure the rest of the receiver is worth the inflated price.

edit: besides desired input/outputs, what else is helpful in choosing the right receiver?

Uh oh, I'm not fvcking up your budget, am I? :evil:

From the other thread:
Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
B&W 600 series for what you're looking at maybe?

If you want to skimp somewhere, the surround speakers are definately where to do it. If going cheaper on the surrounds means you can get a better sub or something, do it.

I know you didn't start a speaker thread at all, but there are a lot of great options out there in your range besides B&W. If you haven't looked already, you might want to consider trying to get a demo of some internet direct speakers. Ascend Acoustics, Axiom, AV123, etc.

Nothing wrong at all with B&W and you getting to demo them and liking them is great. When I was in search of my current system, I demo-ed a few of the local retail options and then found a guy on the AV123 forum that was close enough to me that I did a demo of his system. It sounded and looked a lot better than the retail stuff I had demo-ed earlier.

Just wanted to mention it if you hadn't considered it already.

For a sub, it doesn't matter as much to get something by the same brand as your speakers. If you're into projects and DIY, you might want to think about making a sub. My other suggestion is to check out SVS. http://www.svsound.com/
You can probably find enough about them on your own ;)

If you find a couple receivers that have the inputs/outputs you want, it would be great if you could try them both at that place you got to demo the B&Ws. I'm not sure how they have their stuff set up of course, but they might let you try out both options and see how they sound to you. The difference is not going to be as great as changing out for different receivers, but see if something jumps out at you.

If you have a couple options in mind, you can probably find some good info on specific models at AVSforum.

Overall I think your speaker/sub choice is going to make a LOT more difference than your receiver choice. Pretty much anything you pick in the general pricerange from good companies is going to be plenty to get the job done.