audigy: fake 24 bit ?

[nortexoid]

Originally posted by: HendrixFan
The Terratec card does feature 24 bit support for recording, but with WinXP and Win2000 it only has ASIO support. Meaning that virtually all audio programs will not be able to utilize 24 bits. This isnt a problem with Terratec, its a Win NT problem. If you are looking for a good card for recording, the Audiophile 2496 is a better choice than the Terratec. It uses the same ENVY24 chip, but the DAC are much better than the Terratec card. Personally, I think the Terratec is trying too hard to be an "all in one" solution.

The lack of 24 bit support for XP/2K is a big reason why most people who do "serious" work with a Windows box are still running 98 and havent moved to 2K/XP yet.

u were purposely vague?

uhm, winnt doesn't support ASIOSSJ#@#$JKSJF so 96khz processing is sort of almost not very contingently necessarily likely plausibly possible.

IOW, what the hell is the relevance of ASIO, and more importantly, what the hell is it?

 

[nortexoid]

even if it is the standardized audio stream input output (thx google!), i'm still curious about the relevancy.

or more so....

This isnt a problem with Terratec, its a Win NT problem. If you are looking for a good card for recording, the Audiophile 2496 is a better choice than the Terratec

then it would seem the problem is also a problem for the audiophile...so why would the audiophile be better, especially given the substantial price difference *and lack of IO box)

 

[littlegohan]

too many technical terms here

 

[Pariah]

"To me, your post suggested that the Terratec Fire6 sucks at everything, Pariah, not just gaming."

I thought this statement made it pretty clear I wasn't:

Expensive and not for the hardcore gamer, though it does have top notch quality in other areas that aren't matched by other mainstream choices.

"i'm still curious about the relevancy."

There is brief description here as well as on the newer 2.0 standard. It's a standardization for recording syncronization which has zero relevance for typical users. Unless you are musician it's nothing you need to worry about.

ASIO

The MidiMan Audiophile 2496 is a better musical card than the Terratec, but it has practically no support for gaming. No direct sound, DS3D, EAX, A3D, etc... support.

 

[HendrixFan]

My point was that if you want a card for recording audio at high quality, you wouldnt want the Terratec. You wouldnt even want to run WinXp or Win2K. ASIO is, as someone mentioned, a standard for input and output which virtually no programs support. They all support WDM or MME. The Terratec doesnt do anything better than other cards, its just an all in one package, at a high price. Now if the recording quality of the Terratec is fine for a user, then the quality of the Audigy is fine. If you want to play games or watch DVDs, its my experience that the Audigy provides better support for both. Which of course leaves no advantage to the Terratec card.

I ran the Audigy and the Audiophile card in my system with no conflicts for a while, until I got a second rig up to run Win98 so I could take full advantage of the 24 bit support of the Audiophile. I continue to use the Audigy for my Win2K box, where I watch DVDs and play games.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: 7757524
The converters are capable of 24/96 but the DSP is not. Therefore it can't perform 24bit functions all the time. The only true 24bit functionality it has is when using SPDIF exclusively. It's not fake 24 it's just not complete.

Yet it is advertised, often, as a 24-bit capable card, which is pretty much fraudulent, IMHO. It would be like Intel claiming that the Coppermine Celeron CPUs were 256-bit, because there exists a 256-bit bus between the CPU core and the L2 cache.

 

[Goi]

"i was actually talking about the analog part, where there's no way it would upsample an audio signal before the DAC portion into the DAC"

Uh oh, does that mean I can't get 96KHz audio sent to my junk Promedias or other garbage multimedia speakers? Those speakers will torch clean audio more than not have 96KHz audio will. Digital output is more important than analog as anyone with equipment to take advantage of such features will undoubtedly be using a HT setup with SPDIF in. I agree completely that the marketing is shady and misleading at best, but I let my ears determine the quality of a sound card, not press releases and stickers on a box.

True, in most cases, people probably won't notice the difference. However, not everyone uses crappy multimedia speakers. Personally, I output audio from the analog output of my Santa Cruz to a Technics stereo power amplifier and out to a pair of Sherwood bookshelves and KEF stand mounters. While this setup isn't anywhere near top of the line, it will beat the crap out of any speaker marketted as "computer/multimedia" speakers, and does let me appreciate sound quality to a certain extent. My point was just to illustrate how pointless the 24/96 Philips DAC is when its NEVER ever used in 24/96 mode. Add to that the fact that Creative is justifying its 24/96 moniker entirely on that DAC, which never is used that way. That's like dropping a million dollars into the Pacific Ocean and calling yourself a millionaire.

 

[paralazarguer]

It would be like Intel claiming that the Coppermine Celeron CPUs were 256-bit, because there exists a 256-bit bus between the CPU core and the L2 cache.

*cough* APPLE *cough*

 

[zephyrprime]

I'm afraid that you don't understand how a soundcard works. It has nothing to do with "algorythms" and the emu10k2 chip in the audigy is in fact 32bit. It has to do with the way it samples and plays back music and has nothing to do with the "bitness" of the chip. Tom's has a goog guide for soundcard 101. You can't record higher than 24bit as far as I'm aware.

I believe that I *do* know how a soundcard works.

I looked up some info on the emu10k1, which isn't the emu10k2 but I couldn't find info on that. Apparently, the dsp is a 32 processor so I still argue that my original contention is correct and that 24bit audio could be achieved on the Audigy with some changed algorithms.

 

[paralazarguer]

LOL! Just because it's a 32 bit processor doesn't mean that it can handle 24 bit audio. the bits in audio is the ammount of steps between lowest and highest value and has absolutely nothing to do with how many bit the EMU10k2 processor can handle at once. NOTHING.

 

[Piano Man]

Well I own the DMX 6Fire ,Pariah, and it rocks for games. That review was a long time ago. Try this one for the gaming aspects. Link. This card is well worth the extra money. It has true 24/96 input and output on everything, and it comes with a phone preamp. Plus it looks a lot cooler.

A couple of quotes:

Quake 3

The sounds were no where near as distinctive. They were there, but you couldn't really fix on the source and it was really hard to pick them above other game play sounds. I also tried this on the Sound Blaster Audigy. It was a bit clearer than the AC97 but no where near as clear or impressive as the Terratec DMX Fire 6.

Castle Wolf:

The high quality sounds out of the Terratec DMX Fire 6 provided me with an unbelievable advantage in the single player game

DVD

The sound quality from the Terratec DMX Fire 6 and the Altec Lansing 641 speakers was better than I have heard since I saw the film in the cinemas

Music:

The only other time I have heard music so crisp and clear is live music. I am not exaggerating. If you're fussy about your music then the Envy24 is definitely unbeatable as a PC music player solution

The only time he had problems with games was due to EAX, not the card. The same probs occured with the Audigy. So, as you can see, and as I have already experienced, the DMX 6Fire is a great gaming card. Not to mention an awesome card for listening to music, especially LP's.

 

[HendrixFan]

Piano Man, the Terratec is a nice card that I did consider buying for a while, but there are much better reviews on the net, such as this one that was already linked.

I still stand by my point about the 24 bit 96khz support. Its not right to slam the Audigy when the Terratec card boast it but has virtually no Win2K or WinXP support for their 24 bit functionality.

 

[Piano Man]

I'm not sure what you are talking about since I have recorded both from LP and MD in 24bits (XP).

 

[VirtualLarry]

I looked up some info on the emu10k1, which isn't the emu10k2 but I couldn't find info on that. Apparently, the dsp is a 32 processor so I still argue that my original contention is correct and that 24bit audio could be achieved on the Audigy with some changed algorithms.

It may calculate internally at 32-bit sample quality, but if you can only get 16-bit in and out of the card, it's not all that useful. Kind of like how the Voodoo3 cards were only capable of 16-bit color output (in 3D mode), but claimed to process color internally at 22-bit or something close to that.

Btw, the "input/output" of the data to the sound card, is through the ADC/DAC, and that is a piece of hardware, it's not possible to "change algorithms" to make the bit-ness of the DAC change. You can calculate all you want at 32-bit sample precision, but to shove it out the 16-bit DAC, you have to downconvert it somehow.

 

[jaeger66]

Originally posted by: HendrixFan
Piano Man, the Terratec is a nice card that I did consider buying for a while, but there are much better reviews on the net, such as this one that was already linked.

That's not a good review. In fact, it's a terrible review. The writer points out that he didn't use the universally accepted method for reviewing audio gear, so what good is it? I'd bet money that if the reviewer heard the cards, and then heard them again in a different order he wouldn't be able to match them up. Critical listening is an acquired skill, one that the author obviously doesn't have.

 

[paralazarguer]

It may calculate internally at 32-bit sample quality, but if you can only get 16-bit in and out of the card, it's not all that useful. Kind of like how the Voodoo3 cards were only capable of 16-bit color output (in 3D mode), but claimed to process color internally at 22-bit or something close to that.

Btw, the "input/output" of the data to the sound card, is through the ADC/DAC, and that is a piece of hardware, it's not possible to "change algorithms" to make the bit-ness of the DAC change. You can calculate all you want at 32-bit sample precision, but to shove it out the 16-bit DAC, you have to downconvert it somehow.

sigh....Okay the emu10K2 does process in 32 bit but it's not capable of processing audio in 24 bits. Keep in mind that bitness in a processor is different from bitness in audio. Bitness in audio represents the ammount of steps from highest to lowest points. It has nothing to do with how many bits a processor can handle at once. Keep in mind that the EMU10K2 also handles EAX.

 

[Goi]

bitness! hahaha, i like that word

 

[zephyrprime]

Btw, the "input/output" of the data to the sound card, is through the ADC/DAC, and that is a piece of hardware, it's not possible to "change algorithms" to make the bit-ness of the DAC change. You can calculate all you want at 32-bit sample precision, but to shove it out the 16-bit DAC, you have to downconvert it somehow.

What you say is absolutely true but it was already stated previously in the thread that the ADC/DAC on the audigy are 24bit so you point is moot.

sigh....Okay the emu10K2 does process in 32 bit but it's not capable of processing audio in 24 bits. Keep in mind that bitness in a processor is different from bitness in audio. Bitness in audio represents the ammount of steps from highest to lowest points. It has nothing to do with how many bits a processor can handle at once. Keep in mind that the EMU10K2 also handles EAX.

I know all that. I don't really understand what you're trying to say. Here's my new, revised argument:
1. The audigy only puts out 16bit except with spdif
2. The emu10k2 is a 32bit dsp
3. The audigy has 24bit adc/dacs
4. Given the above, the audigy's lack of 24bit ness must be due to either:
a. lazy programmers at creative recycled the 16bit algortihms on the live! series and used them on the audigy
b. noise from either the dac or preamp is high enough that it obviates 24bit resolution
c. the read/write bandwidth to the emu10K2 is such that it can't handle 24bit @ 96kbps

Looking at the three possibilities, I suppose b. would be the most likely reason that the audigy isn't completely 24bit capable.

 

[kazeakuma]

Hrmm, I'm not going to debate about WHY the audigy is not fully 24bit capable. But it was my understanding when the Audigy came out that the 24bit dac was to help with mixing audio. On a sound card with a 16bit dac if you mix two 16 bit audio streams they have to be downsampled to 8bit to be mixed by the dac. The audigy gives you an extra 8 bits to work with thus improving the quality of the mixing.
I could be wrong but this was the impression I was under.

 

[MortaniuS]

Toms Hardware Quote

"The 24-bit logo appears all over the place - on the box, on the installation CD, even on the product itself. Yet it has been confirmed, even by Creative Labs' own technicians, that neither the Audigy nor the Extigy are capable of recording or playing 24-bit sound at 96 kHz."