ATTN Pro Lifers

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
i would like to know whether you would have a funeral for a miscarried fetus, like you would for an infant or child. if not, why not?

similarly, up to a third of all pregnancies are naturally aborted... often without the woman even knowing she was even pregnant. does it bother you that you have dead children you don't know about? if not, why not?

thanks, i won't argue, just interested in hearing what you have to say
 

maddogchen

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2004
8,903
2
76
would you and your wife not grieve for a loss after a miscarriage? or would she go about the day like nothing really bad happened, it happens all the time?

I have read about people holding a small ceremony/funeral for miscarriages. And if the mother and child dies during pregnancy, for the husband, its a feeling of the loss of two people not one.
 

jagec

Lifer
Apr 30, 2004
24,442
6
81
My feelings on it are that I can't prove that a baby (fetus, whatever) is "human" in the first trimester, but it would take an awful lot to convince me that they aren't human in the third trimester. Just as human as a newborn, at any rate. The problem with most "liberal versus conservative" arguments is that both sides want to take it to the extreme. The stereotypical "conservative" would have all abortions banned, no matter what the extenuating circumstances, the stereotypical "liberal" would consider the baby to be just a mass of tissue until the umbilical cord is cut.

A good compromise may leave everyone mad, but at least they won't be furious.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
You realize that EVEN some of those/US horrible pro-abortion/pro womens rights people believe the fetus is a human child and if someone punched a pregnant woman in the stomach and it killed the human baby inside then they should be charged with murder *if they knew or could tell she was pregnant.

Oregon is a very fvcked up state run by UBERLIBERALS

See anything wrong with or missing from this articel?

Man given 7 years for stabbing pregnant woman
Tuesday, April 27, 2004
EMILY TSAO
OREGON CITY -- A man who stabbed a pregnant woman in the abdomen was sentenced Monday to 71/2 years in prison for first-degree assault.


From Our Advertiser




The woman, who was five months' pregnant at the time of the stabbing, went into premature labor about two weeks after the incident and lost her baby.

Alfredo Cortes-Villa, 20, of Salem was not charged with the death of the fetus because Oregon law defines a homicide victim as someone who has been born.

The Dec. 18 stabbing took place at La Espiga Tienda Mexicana, a Molalla Avenue store owned by the woman's family, prosecutor Michael Regan said.

Cortes-Villa, a customer, had been searching for a CD at the store and spoke with the woman's husband, Regan said.

Cortes-Villa returned later that day for the CD. There was a misunderstanding involving the CD, and Cortes-Villa stabbed the woman, then 24, with a kitchen knife, Regan said. Cortes-Villa was a stranger to the woman, the prosecutor said.

The woman appeared at the sentencing but declined to comment. She has had seven surgeries since the attack and is still recuperating.

Regan told Clackamas County Circuit Judge Thomas Rastetter that the woman harbored no ill will toward the defendant.

Cortes-Villa, speaking through an interpreter, asked the woman and the court for forgiveness. "I am willing to pay for the crime," he said.

Cortes-Villa pleaded guilty to the assault charge on April 19. Upon completion of his sentence, he will be deported, Regan said.
Man given 7 years for stabbing pregnant woman
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
Originally posted by: dahunan
You realize that EVEN some of those/US horrible pro-abortion/pro womens rights people believe the fetus is a human child and if someone punched a pregnant woman in the stomach and it killed the human baby inside then they should be charged with murder *if they knew or could tell she was pregnant.

Oregon is a very fvcked up state run by UBERLIBERALS

See anything wrong with or missing from this articel?

Man given 7 years for stabbing pregnant woman

could we please stay on topic
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
Originally posted by: maddogchen
would you and your wife not grieve for a loss after a miscarriage? or would she go about the day like nothing really bad happened, it happens all the time?

I have read about people holding a small ceremony/funeral for miscarriages. And if the mother and child dies during pregnancy, for the husband, its a feeling of the loss of two people not one.

grieving for a loss is not the same as a full fledged funeral, casket and all... i was just curious if people actually do that
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
81
Originally posted by: gopunk
i would like to know whether you would have a funeral for a miscarried fetus, like you would for an infant or child. if not, why not?

similarly, up to a third of all pregnancies are naturally aborted... often without the woman even knowing she was even pregnant. does it bother you that you have dead children you don't know about? if not, why not?

thanks, i won't argue, just interested in hearing what you have to say

I haven't been touched by this personally, though I had a brother who died when he was five months old, and he definitely got a funeral. So, I don't really have an answer, except to say that I don't have an answer.

Man, I need sleep.

Cheers!
Nate
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
I"m personally opposed to abortion on ethical not religious grounds, but it's a decision for each family to make in our democracy where the nation is so divided.

Of course, I think a funeral for a known miscarriage is approriate in most circumstances.

I don't understand how all these tree-hugging liberals can support abortions that are, in most cases, being performed because it is inconvenient for the mother and/or father to have a child. Seems like a morally bankrupt reason for an abortion. (Not that there are many good reasons.)

-Robert
 
Jan 12, 2003
3,498
0
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Originally posted by: chess9
I"m personally opposed to abortion on ethical not religious grounds, but it's a decision for each family to make in our democracy where the nation is so divided.

Of course, I think a funeral for a known miscarriage is approriate in most circumstances.

I don't understand how all these tree-hugging liberals can support abortions that are, in most cases, being performed because it is inconvenient for the mother and/or father to have a child. Seems like a morally bankrupt reason for an abortion. (Not that there are many good reasons.)

-Robert

Hell has frozen over twice now...so much for global warming :)
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
Galt:

Hell may be going through an "ice age" but here's a thought provoker:

"God gave Noah the rainbow sign, no more water the fire next time."

:)

So, I've put some money into the appropriate stocks:

Text

:)

-Robert
 

DoubleL

Golden Member
Apr 3, 2001
1,202
0
0
A lot of people that post here are still fetus's and some wonder if they are human
 

Bowmaster

Senior member
Mar 11, 2002
523
0
0
My stance on abortion is essentially the same as Chess9. I'm oppossed to it on ethical, not on religious grounds. Abortion is not birth control.

But is this being hypocritical? Give easy access to the "day after" pill to anyone who needs it because they weren't thinking before/during the causative event. I don't consider it abortion until it even remotely looks like a person - anything after the first month.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,802
6,775
126
I find the subject of abortion a difficult issue to face. I feel that human lifer begins at conception. There is an irresistible logic to that. I am also male and will never be pregnant and look at my responsibility for not causing an unwanted pregnancy one that is totally my own. I have only one choice in the matter and that is not to cause a pregnancy anybody would terminate. That means scrupulous care in having sex with and only with someone I am willing to or have live partnered.

I look at life as the result of an animation of inorganic molecules and the feeling of the sanctity of life as a kind or metaphysical joke the universe has played on us. I value my life because the value of my life is what keeps me and all life alive. It is an innate reaction to having evolved as is all of my other feelings of compassion and love. I am an animal that does and must feel and identify with the feelings and plight of others. As I love so do I want that chance for the unborn fetus.

Life is also a paradox and basically accidental in form. We are split 50 50 male and female. That was a matter of how we evolved. I am male only by chance and the same for any female. Only the, shall we say, fortunate 50% can have children who are born with the extra life giving double X. So only by chance do those 50% have to face the issue here. By chance then, the other 50% should have no say in the issue. Once a woman is pregnant they have missed their opportunity at choice. They will not have the tremendous genetic burden of nourishing an extra life and all the tremendous weight to life and health that a child will bring. A man can father a million children and never even know or be involved in the lives of a single one of them. I see this, therefore, as ineluctably and strictly a woman's issue and purely by chance since we evolved accidentally as dual sex organisms.

Now I think that the natural feeling of the sanctity of life that every organism that evolves to consciousness will feel has been externalized and projected out as coming from God. One can't really tell therefore, since we evolved in the image of the universe, who is in whose image. What we do know, though, is that for those who think God has made hard and fast rules abortion is an evil and that in doing so they create the evil of absolutism in the process. A rape victim or incest victim cannot abort nor can we execute murderers because all life is sacred. There is something equally irrational about the notion that a mother should love the child of a rape. There is about that also something that repels just as abortion does. There is something repellent about forcing a girl of ten to mother a child of her father. There are problems with the yuck factor when you apply absolutes.

It seems to me therefore that the answer to the problem of abortion does not lie in feeling. The notion of the sanctity of life is just a biological feeling. It is not an absolute. Where one absolute conflicts with another, the ten year old say, with her father's fetus, something has to give. It seems to me that you have to rise to the level of reason.

A fetus is a potential human in our feelings and also in fact. It is also an amoeba or hydra on the evolutionary level or maybe even a fish. What it does not have is self consciousness or the awareness of the sancrosanctity of it's own life. It has only the evolutionary drive to survive. It will not acquire a feeling of self till way after birth. This is in part why we don't usually have funerals for the fetus. People understand intuitively that what is lost was potential and not actual person hood. What people morn is the loss of that potential.

So the abortion debate, to me, devolves to a question of when is potential person hood, the wonderful experience of being alive we wish genetically for all, to be valued above the real person hood of the mother. Do we force women and girls who are accidentally female, who can't volitionally control ovulation, who are also genetically driven to have sex with guys who are similarly driven, to suffer the tremendous responsibility of giving birth to all conception. We know that poverty, ignorance, stupidity and irresponsibility will increase the likelihood of this occurring. We know also that the hideous world of poverty and want we see around us is of our own making. We do know that, don't we?

I see abortion, therefore as an unfortunate necessity of intelligent life on earth as long as fertility is not voluntary. We cannot enslave ourselves to the stupidity of absolute rules any more than we can deny our compassionate moral center. We have to compromise somewhere using our intelligence. The present regulations rational secular judges have reached are just such an intelligent balance, in my opinion. I am free to have sex with a willing partner who wants to be a parent, and women are free to make their won decisions
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
4
0
I cried my eyes out when my wife naturally aborted one of our children only after being pregnant for 12 weeks. We had a moment of silence.
 

maluckey

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2003
2,933
0
71
I don't think it odd to have a funeral for an unborn, or stillborn child. I have attended a funeral for a "lost" child. The baby died in-utero, and was induced to be delivered delivered after showing no life-signs. The baby was Named, and Blessed before internment. It was a proper thing to do, as the hopes and dreams of the parents resided in this baby. They now have closure, knowing that at least they honored it's very short time among us.

jjones,

I feel for you, and hope that you can find peace if it turns bad for you.
 

MonstaThrilla

Golden Member
Sep 16, 2000
1,652
0
0
Originally posted by: maddogchen
would you and your wife not grieve for a loss after a miscarriage? or would she go about the day like nothing really bad happened, it happens all the time?

Is this implying that women who have abortions do "go about the day like nothing really bad happened, it happens all the time"?

That's the one thing that irks me about pro-lifers more than anything. They THINK that these women who have abortions show no care or feeling to what they've just done. More often than not, as in this thread, these same people who make that criticism will never face the decision, because they're men. Its conservative elitism plain and simple - thinking that a woman should be forced into going through with a pregnancy and having the baby even though she doesn't want it just to satisfy YOUR moral values. The late-term abortion hoopla is a bogeyman designed to appeal to people's emotions, because the VAST majority of abortions are in the first trimester.

The truth is, abortions do affect women on a very deep, deep level, at least from what I've witnessed first hand (and no I wasn't the father).

My moral values say such: Abortions are terminating a life before it has a chance to start, and show a failure of responsibility and morality. But forcing the mother to bring an unwanted child into this world, or to attempt a dangerous back alley abortion, is much more immoral than allowing the mother to choose to abort it early in the womb. Just IMO.
 

beyoku

Golden Member
Aug 20, 2003
1,568
1
71
Originally posted by: Orsorum
Originally posted by: gopunk
i would like to know whether you would have a funeral for a miscarried fetus, like you would for an infant or child. if not, why not?

similarly, up to a third of all pregnancies are naturally aborted... often without the woman even knowing she was even pregnant. does it bother you that you have dead children you don't know about? if not, why not?

thanks, i won't argue, just interested in hearing what you have to say

I haven't been touched by this personally, though I had a brother who died when he was five months old, and he definitely got a funeral. So, I don't really have an answer, except to say that I don't have an answer.

Man, I need sleep.

Cheers!
Nate


my thoughts exactly i dont not support them at all and i would breakup / divorce a wife if this happened.
 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
12,572
0
0
It's a fine line. Just like almost anything in this world, there is not definate point where a fetus should have all the rights of any other person. You mentioned how lots of people's children die before the women even knows about it. Well, if the child died for reasons out of anyone's control, then there is no real problem because the child died naturally and no one could have done anything to prevent it. It's still a very sad time for many people and it's regrettable, but it happens and there is nothing we can do about it. It's not like those people actually tried to kill their child. As for a funeral, it's up to the family. Some people are really emotional about things like that and I have no problem with it. If they want a funeral, that is fine. If they don't, that is fine too. Having a funeral is mainly to say goodbye to the deceased and to let people say goodbye. That doesn't really apply to a child that you didn't even know, but I would probably hold a small funeral if it were me.
 

SmokeRngs

Member
Apr 30, 2004
80
0
0
I have dealt with two miscarriages with my ex-gf. One of them was with my child and the other actually happened before we got together and is actually the initial reason we got together. There was not a funeral for either time. Both instances were very painful. The time she miscarried with my child was something that was very hard to deal with for the both of us. This happened over seven months ago and it still haunts me.

I will say that we were lucky with the first pregnancy and I have a wonderful 3 1/2 year old son that I would do anything for. What I find funny, is that we were in the group that were not financially ready for a child. According to some, my child should be living off the government since he was not aborted. For a little more information, I am currently a single father with no support from my child's mother. Guess what, I'm still supporting him. I do have some help from my parents, I won't say I'm doing everything on my own, but it is getting done. This is one of the reasons I cannot stand some of the reasons for abortion. If you actually care about anything, you will find a way to make sure your child has what they need, and doing it without the government doing it for you.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
80% of conceptions result in failure within hours, days or even weeks. and these go unnoticed. a veritable holocaust by gods hand. no tears shed...none at all.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,802
6,775
126
Originally posted by: SmokeRngs
I have dealt with two miscarriages with my ex-gf. One of them was with my child and the other actually happened before we got together and is actually the initial reason we got together. There was not a funeral for either time. Both instances were very painful. The time she miscarried with my child was something that was very hard to deal with for the both of us. This happened over seven months ago and it still haunts me.

I will say that we were lucky with the first pregnancy and I have a wonderful 3 1/2 year old son that I would do anything for. What I find funny, is that we were in the group that were not financially ready for a child. According to some, my child should be living off the government since he was not aborted. For a little more information, I am currently a single father with no support from my child's mother. Guess what, I'm still supporting him. I do have some help from my parents, I won't say I'm doing everything on my own, but it is getting done. This is one of the reasons I cannot stand some of the reasons for abortion. If you actually care about anything, you will find a way to make sure your child has what they need, and doing it without the government doing it for you.
You are not alone. Others are. Imagine that struggle. Human beings are not found in the wild raising children alone. It takes a village as somebody wise once said. Government is civilized man's way to provide everybody with a village. The selfish self centered prick will object to the taxes or the notion hat he should help anybody even though he owes his existence to others and his livelihood to communal life. Capitalism might be fine for the orangutan, but humans are chimps.
 

JupiterJones

Senior member
Jun 14, 2001
642
0
0
Originally posted by: gopunk
i would like to know whether you would have a funeral for a miscarried fetus, like you would for an infant or child. if not, why not?

similarly, up to a third of all pregnancies are naturally aborted... often without the woman even knowing she was even pregnant. does it bother you that you have dead children you don't know about? if not, why not?

thanks, i won't argue, just interested in hearing what you have to say

Yes, I would have a funeral for a miscarried baby. It is very damaging for a mother to pretend that nothing happened. The mother grieves, and the insensitivity of telling her nothing happened (along with the lack of closure of no funeral) is cruel.

The "up to a third" number is purely a guess. It is hard to be bothered by something you do not know happened.

For the Christian, we know that any small child who dies is not accountable for his sin and therefore goes to be with the Lord -- there is our comfort.

Jup
 

JupiterJones

Senior member
Jun 14, 2001
642
0
0
Moon beam believes "it takes a village to raise a child", and equates this to government. Problem with it's thought process is that government is not a village. Parents do not need government bureaucrats and federal programs to raise their children. Families don't need more government; they need less government. In a very limited sense I might agree that it does take a village to raise a child, but that doesn't mean it takes the government to raise a child. Children should be raised by families, churches, and communities--not by the government.
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
The "up to a third" number is purely a guess. It is hard to be bothered by something you do not know happened.

well, a guess by a ton of doctors and scientists, and based on the scientific studies they've done... the different studies have a lot of different numbers, but they basically range from 10-50%. you don't know it happened, but you know there's a good chance it did. i don't know, if somebody told me there was a good chance i had a son i didn't know about that died, i'd be disturbed.