Attitude and Change in the Garage as of late

[MotF Bane]

I'll be blunt. It's obvious it's one or two guys that cause nearly all the problems. Ban them. See? Not so hard. The mods in garage remind of this quote from Ross Perot:

"I come from an environment where, if you see a snake, you kill it. At GM, if you see a snake, the first thing you do is go hire a consultant on snakes. Then you get a committee on snakes, and then you discuss it for a couple of years. The most likely course of action is -- nothing."

You guys have become GM.

I cannot agree more.

 

[MotF Bane]

Unfortunately, I cannot deny that. However, you will soon learn that one cannot be a vigilante with a community and staff this large. Just keep that in mind.

We aren't asking for vigilantism, we're asking for the mods collectively to realize what madoka said should be regarded as the solution. He may be the one who said it, but pretty much everyone knows it.

But I do believe I see what you are getting at here, so hopefully a good consensus will eventually emerge.

 

[Bartman39]

I'll be blunt. It's obvious it's one or two guys that cause nearly all the problems. Ban them. See? Not so hard. The mods in garage remind of this quote from Ross Perot:

"I come from an environment where, if you see a snake, you kill it. At GM, if you see a snake, the first thing you do is go hire a consultant on snakes. Then you get a committee on snakes, and then you discuss it for a couple of years. The most likely course of action is -- nothing."

You guys have become GM.

And pretty soon you start killing anything that resembles a snake even if it has four legs... This is what we try very hard to keep from happening... The real bottom line is "there are two sides to everything" but I do not think most have even considered this...? We ALL have the right to post here within the rules and if they are not broken then if you do not like what is posted then ignore it... We the staff see things all the time that we cannot stand but if its within the rules then we just ignore it and move on... Damn that's simple...

 

[MotF Bane]

And pretty soon you start killing anything that resembles a snake even if it has four legs... This is what we try very hard to keep from happening... The real bottom line is "there are two sides to everything" but I do not think most have even considered this...? We ALL have the right to post here within the rules and if they are not broken then if you do not like what is posted then ignore it... We the staff see things all the time that we cannot stand but if its within the rules then we just ignore it and move on... Damn that's simple...

1) It's a private site. Nobody has a right to anything.
2) The rules are bent and broken at whim.

 

[RavenSEAL]

I'll be blunt. It's obvious it's one or two guys that cause nearly all the problems. Ban them. See? Not so hard. The mods in garage remind of this quote from Ross Perot:

"I come from an environment where, if you see a snake, you kill it. At GM, if you see a snake, the first thing you do is go hire a consultant on snakes. Then you get a committee on snakes, and then you discuss it for a couple of years. The most likely course of action is -- nothing."

You guys have become GM.

+1

 

[alkemyst]

I think the problem is too many don't like a certain poster so are looking for any excuse to ban them.

What I find is sad is the people doing the most complaining are those that don't really add to this sub-forum. They just piss and moan about everyone else.

It's not like the garage forum is so high traffic that all posts immediately drop off it's first page...skip the posts you don't want to read.

 

[Bartman39]

1) It's a private site. Nobody has a right to anything.
2) The rules are bent and broken at whim.

1...You are sadly mistaken and quite lost in the fact...
2...Why state what is already known about all to many...?

3...This is the kind of attitude and crap that makes it worse and only proves my point... There are many types of "snakes" in the brush but does that mean we should kill them all...? This is whats known as "blind enthusiasm" and is almost a crusade of old in nature...

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Dealing with a single obviously trolling user is much different than taking care of things 'vigilante style', in my opinion.



For one, we've had more good members banned as a result of their troll threads than actual trolls banned. At least two people who are almost always helpful have been banned as a direct result of this troll... one who has a fantastic build thread he can no longer update and the other frequently went out of his way to give people sound advice. Now they're gone and we still have the troll poking around causing his grief.


This ultimately revolves around one member not understanding that it isn't OT and basically none of the garage users want him here anymore. His posting style has been so trollish that no one takes him seriously and just about every thread he makes (through his own fault) degrade into trash. He's disrespectful to literally everyone and is clearly just a bad seed.

That one member just needs banned. It's not like there are one or two people complaining, it's clearly an overwhelming consensus among the users.

Is it not possible to ban him from garage, solve this entire problem, and just leave it at that? He's clearly been warned a few times at no avail, he follows up after mods tell him to knock it off and still continues the trolling.


We already apparently can't post funny semi off-topic pics in garage anymore because of the atmosphere he's created and that line has had to get drawn. In my opinion this is as bad (if not worse) than the mods 'worst case' vigilante situation.






Ban **** from ATG and let's all move on happily where we were 6 months ago before he started this mess. The garage used to be a great place, and we can go back to that with about 3 clicks of a mouse button without all the hemming and hawing and drama.

 

[Gillbot]

1) It's a private site. Nobody has a right to anything.
2) The rules are bent and broken at whim.

We have rules and procedures to follow too. Plus if we implement some changes, we need to be sire everyone is on the same page. You wouldn't want me to ban someone, only to have another mod not know why and allow them bad would you?

 

[RavenSEAL]

Dealing with a single obviously trolling user is much different than taking care of things 'vigilante style', in my opinion.



For one, we've had more good members banned as a result of their troll threads than actual trolls banned. At least two people who are almost always helpful have been banned as a direct result of this troll... one who has a fantastic build thread he can no longer update and the other frequently went out of his way to give people sound advice. Now they're gone and we still have the troll poking around causing his grief.


This ultimately revolves around one member not understanding that it isn't OT and basically none of the garage users want him here anymore. His posting style has been so trollish that no one takes him seriously and just about every thread he makes (through his own fault) degrade into trash. He's disrespectful to literally everyone and is clearly just a bad seed.

That one member just needs banned. It's not like there are one or two people complaining, it's clearly an overwhelming consensus among the users.

Is it not possible to ban him from garage, solve this entire problem, and just leave it at that? He's clearly been warned a few times at no avail, he follows up after mods tell him to knock it off and still continues the trolling.


We already apparently can't post funny semi off-topic pics in garage anymore because of the atmosphere he's created and that line has had to get drawn. In my opinion this is as bad (if not worse) than the mods 'worst case' vigilante situation.

Ban **** from ATG and let's all move on happily where we were 6 months ago before he started this mess. The garage used to be a great place, and we can go back to that with about 3 clicks of a mouse button without all the hemming and hawing and drama.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++1

 

[alkemyst]

I think it's funny that usually guys that like cars are more a "man's man", yet here they are whining about banning someone because they lack self-control to avoid their threads.

It's a FREAKING THREAD, not email, not a text message...skip it and be much happier.

I am surprised there is no recent to limit discussions to only certain models of cars here.

 

[HarryLui]

We have rules and procedures to follow too.

May I ask where the rules are? I can't seem to find them.

 

[Gillbot]

May I ask where the rules are? I can't seem to find them.

I meant We, as in the mod staff. The general rules are posted here: http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=60552

 

[Sulaco]

Here's my question:

Threads seem to be repeatedly closed, warnings (in bold) seem to be repeatedly issued, and promises of "vacations" seem to be frequently and sternly issued.
However, this cycle continues to reoccur time and time again.

I suppose my question is, how much is enough? Basically, if User X gets a thread closed and a warning on tuesday, complaints on thursday, another thread closed by saturday, all while "vacations" and warnings are being threatened, how much is enough? IS there a quota? A limit? How many times do we have to see "warnings issued" and the same behavior basically start up again within a week or less?

It seems as though as long as the offense is not too blatantly egregious (which, lets all be honest here, a good troll, like a child, knows EXACTLY what the limits are and walks right up to them and continually tests them, so they will avoid that blatant misstep 99% of the time), the offender is allowed to continually repeat the cycle.

I think the devil's advocate mindset is wearing thin for many members. There's a gulf of difference between popularity contest vigilantism, and almost unanimous forum annoyance at obvious rule flaunting, trolling, and hostile aggressive behavior, that, at least in the public eye, seemingly is coddled and defended (and therefore perpetuated) far more than it appears to be confronted.

 

[Gillbot]

Here's my question:

Threads seem to be repeatedly closed, warnings (in bold) seem to be repeatedly issued, and promises of "vacations" seem to be frequently and sternly issued.
However, this cycle continues to reoccur time and time again.

I suppose my question is, how much is enough? Basically, if User X gets a thread closed and a warning on tuesday, complaints on thursday, another thread closed by saturday, all while "vacations" and warnings are being threatened, how much is enough? IS there a quota? A limit? How many times do we have to see "warnings issued" and the same behavior basically start up again within a week or less?

It seems as though as long as the offense is not too blatantly egregious (which, lets all be honest here, a good troll, like a child, knows EXACTLY what the limits are and walks right up to them and continually tests them, so they will avoid that blatant misstep 99% of the time), the offender is allowed to continually repeat the cycle.

I think the devil's advocate mindset is wearing thin for many members. There's a gulf of difference between popularity contest vigilantism, and almost unanimous forum annoyance at obvious rule flaunting, trolling, and hostile aggressive behavior, that, at least in the public eye, seemingly is coddled and defended (and therefore perpetuated) far more than it appears to be confronted.

There is a limit, unfortunately the bar is pretty high in my opinion.

Yes, a good troll knows the limit and this is where our hands are tied. UNfortunately as stated above, we have rules we need to follow as well so we can't come in bans a blazin like people want us to. We are currently working on some new guidelines and procedures that we hope will help. Like any poorly maintained jalopy, it takes time for us to get from point A to B.

 

[manimal]

I personally think this is a mountain out a mole hill. If you dont like a poster dont read them.



This issue is prevelant in every online forum or medium out there right now for the most part. Trolling is the new norm.

Have you tried playing a online game lately?

Triying to tightly police a forum this large is like trying to calm a room full of children who just ate lots of sugar.


BTW thank you for keeping our garage clean mods!

/thumbs up!

 

[SpatiallyAware]

There is a limit, unfortunately the bar is pretty high in my opinion.

Yes, a good troll knows the limit and this is where our hands are tied. UNfortunately as stated above, we have rules we need to follow as well so we can't come in bans a blazin like people want us to. We are currently working on some new guidelines and procedures that we hope will help. Like any poorly maintained jalopy, it takes time for us to get from point A to B.

It's not an issue for pretty much every other poster in the garage. Some may have differing opinions or whatnot, or may be abrasive, and these are all easily ignored or only one or two people reply so it's not that disruptive. Basically it's handled 'internally' by the regular users/mod of ATG. They don't continue on and attempt to bait, harass, and disrespect people like this one trolling user everyone is annoyed at.

The problem with this one user (or two, really, if you count the one from the other country) is that they very obviously and specifically look for ways to poke and prod, and intentionally derail threads to where it's 4 or 5 people (different randoms or non-regulars most times) who get into basically 'troll arguments' with these two users. You end up with a thread with a couple of useful replies until it's intentionally derailed, with 30+ arguing ridiculous posts after that. Even after the mods come in and ban everyone who replies it doesn't do much good as the thread is already essentially dead. I know I won't deal with the aftermath when this happens and it's evident the others regulars have backed off as well.


So it sounds like we're looking at developing rules to enforce/control the other 150-200 'regular' garage users from replying to the trolls rather than banning the one user?


To be frank, G, P, B, and other mods watching this, this makes no sense to me. Everyone is very quick to ban other AT users when they reply to the initial trollpost. We're now looking at rules to change the posting style of the ~200 garage regulars who have contributed fantastic content for a very long period of time with NO problems over the past few years rather than accept that the issue is with these specific one or two people.


How about we run the garage like, well, most groups of car people? Most groups of automotive folk (whether it's motorcycles or boats or whatever) end up with people JUST like these trolls. You know what ends up happening? Collectively as a group, the group pushes them out. The 'assholes' end up not invited to anything, not allowed to hang out, and when they show up everyone is shitty to them because they're fed up with their bullshit.

Basically that's what we, as a group, have done to these trolls. It's obvious that no one wants their input, the main 15-20 regulars pretty much understand not to reply to them or else get banned and even that really hasn't done any good. So the next step is rules and guidelines for ATG?? The 'fun' nature of ATG is already diminishing; people aren't posting joke pics anymore and bans/warnings are getting handing out L&R-style when someone posts even one offhand/offtopic post.


I know my opinion has been made clear so I'm just going to leave it alone after this, but I think it's incredibly disappointing that ANY rules or changes are being put in place for the rest of us in response to these one or two trolls who are bored with their usual subforums. We have all contributed a lot of great content to this forum that's easily searchable and helpful, with great attitudes and have been able to joke around and have a good time. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a good bit of ad revenue from the many people who come here and register just to put their first post in ATG.

All-around this really has been a great garage forum, one where I've recommended 'real life' people join AT just to be here. It would be a major detriment if guidelines or procedures were put in place that would affect that in ANY way considering the fact that there was no issues whatsoever before these two got bored in OT and P&N and started playing their games in here.


I will agree that as mods you're in a tough position with this, as you need to appear fair and balanced and I respect that. I'll bring up again the possibility of a vote amongst the regulars; I think it might help shed some light on just how frustrated people are with this situation and the possibility of instituting rules on the rest of us.

 

[RavenSEAL]

It's not an issue for pretty much every other poster in the garage. Some may have differing opinions or whatnot, or may be abrasive, and these are all easily ignored or only one or two people reply so it's not that disruptive. Basically it's handled 'internally' by the regular users/mod of ATG. They don't continue on and attempt to bait, harass, and disrespect people like this one trolling user everyone is annoyed at.

The problem with this one user (or two, really, if you count the one from the other country) is that they very obviously and specifically look for ways to poke and prod, and intentionally derail threads to where it's 4 or 5 people (different randoms or non-regulars most times) who get into basically 'troll arguments' with these two users. You end up with a thread with a couple of useful replies until it's intentionally derailed, with 30+ arguing ridiculous posts after that. Even after the mods come in and ban everyone who replies it doesn't do much good as the thread is already essentially dead. I know I won't deal with the aftermath when this happens and it's evident the others regulars have backed off as well.


So it sounds like we're looking at developing rules to enforce/control the other 150-200 'regular' garage users from replying to the trolls rather than banning the one user?


To be frank, G, P, B, and other mods watching this, this makes no sense to me. Everyone is very quick to ban other AT users when they reply to the initial trollpost. We're now looking at rules to change the posting style of the ~200 garage regulars who have contributed fantastic content for a very long period of time with NO problems over the past few years rather than accept that the issue is with these specific one or two people.


How about we run the garage like, well, most groups of car people? Most groups of automotive folk (whether it's motorcycles or boats or whatever) end up with people JUST like these trolls. You know what ends up happening? Collectively as a group, the group pushes them out. The 'assholes' end up not invited to anything, not allowed to hang out, and when they show up everyone is shitty to them because they're fed up with their bullshit.

Basically that's what we, as a group, have done to these trolls. It's obvious that no one wants their input, the main 15-20 regulars pretty much understand not to reply to them or else get banned and even that really hasn't done any good. So the next step is rules and guidelines for ATG?? The 'fun' nature of ATG is already diminishing; people aren't posting joke pics anymore and bans/warnings are getting handing out L&R-style when someone posts even one offhand/offtopic post.


I know my opinion has been made clear so I'm just going to leave it alone after this, but I think it's incredibly disappointing that ANY rules or changes are being put in place for the rest of us in response to these one or two trolls who are bored with their usual subforums. We have all contributed a lot of great content to this forum that's easily searchable and helpful, with great attitudes and have been able to joke around and have a good time. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a good bit of ad revenue from the many people who come here and register just to put their first post in ATG.

All-around this really has been a great garage forum, one where I've recommended 'real life' people join AT just to be here. It would be a major detriment if guidelines or procedures were put in place that would affect that in ANY way considering the fact that there was no issues whatsoever before these two got bored in OT and P&N and started playing their games in here.


I will agree that as mods you're in a tough position with this, as you need to appear fair and balanced and I respect that. I'll bring up again the possibility of a vote amongst the regulars; I think it might help shed some light on just how frustrated people are with this situation and the possibility of instituting rules on the rest of us.

Hell, even L&R is starting to catch the cold. :thumbsdown:

 

[janas19]

Poolshark, I was skeptical at first but their prices are incredible. Of course I'll have to take your word that the quality is top notch also.

People are getting sick of the troll in ATG. Now I've spotted it happening in L&R.

 

[janas19]

I personally think this is a mountain out a mole hill. If you dont like a poster dont read them.



This issue is prevelant in every online forum or medium out there right now for the most part. Trolling is the new norm.

Have you tried playing a online game lately?

Triying to tightly police a forum this large is like trying to calm a room full of children who just ate lots of sugar.


BTW thank you for keeping our garage clean mods!

/thumbs up!

A hands off, laissez-faire approach to moderation is a terrible suggestion, imo.

No one is saying to run things so that everything is perfect. Rather, if a single issue becomes so large that multiple people complain consistently, it should be addressed, and handled, or things will start to tank.

 

[MotF Bane]

People are getting sick of the troll in ATG. Now I've spotted it happening in L&R.

It actually started in L&R several months ago, now ATG has become the trolls' next target.

 

[madoka]

And pretty soon you start killing anything that resembles a snake even if it has four legs... This is what we try very hard to keep from happening... The real bottom line is "there are two sides to everything" but I do not think most have even considered this...? We ALL have the right to post here within the rules and if they are not broken then if you do not like what is posted then ignore it... We the staff see things all the time that we cannot stand but if its within the rules then we just ignore it and move on... Damn that's simple...

Exposing your reasoning helps to explain why he has been allowed to run amuck in the forums for so long. There aren't two sides. It's not as if the complaints are based on only circumstantial evidence. It's all out there in the forum for everyone to see and everyone can see it except you. Mods like you not only enable his behavior, but actually encourage it. This scenerio sound familiar?

1. Troll asks innocent question.
2. People try to help.
3. Troll insults those that were trying to be helpful.
4. Posters call troll on his obnoxious behavior.
5. Mods punish these posters and tell others to leave troll alone.

You have an arsonist setting fires all over a national park. Insteading of stopping him, you guys busy yourselves putting out dozens of separate fires, punishing the trees for burning and lamenting how difficult your job is.

I was incredulous the first time this happened in ATG; maybe it was a fluke. But seeing this pattern over and over again showed that the modding here is not just inept and cowardly, but perverted and assinine.


You were treading a fine line up to the last sentence.

Then you crossed over that threshold from giving your inputs on how you'd like to see things done and instead opted to insult the integrity and character of our hard-working volunteer moderators.

Re:

Mods like you not only enable his behavior, but actually encourage it.

But seeing this pattern over and over again showed that the modding here is not just inept and cowardly, but perverted and assinine.

AnandTech Forum Guidelines

13) Baiting moderators will not be tolerated nor will Mod Call Outs. Any action that reasonably can be considered baiting a moderator, or multiple consecutive actions that heavily push the boundaries of any of these guidelines will result in an instant short term vacation. Repeated violation of this rule may result in a permaban.

Change your approach or you will be vacationed.

Administrator Idontcare

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Exposing your reasoning helps to explain why he has been allowed to run amuck in the forums for so long. There aren't two sides. It's not as if the complaints are based on only circumstantial evidence. It's all out there in the forum for everyone to see and everyone can see it except you. Mods like you not only enable his behavior, but actually encourage it. This scenerio sound familiar?

1. Troll asks innocent question.
2. People try to help.
3. Troll insults those that were trying to be helpful.
4. Posters call troll on his obnoxious behavior.
5. Mods punish these posters and tell others to leave troll alone.

You have an arsonist setting fires all over a national park. Insteading of stopping him, you guys busy yourselves putting out dozens of separate fires, punishing the trees for burning and lamenting how difficult your job is.

I was incredulous the first time this happened in ATG; maybe it was a fluke. But seeing this pattern over and over again showed that the modding here is not just inept and cowardly, but perverted and assinine.

I would imagine it's tough for the mods to handle a situation such as this one. Keep in mind that if they ban someone every time there's a pitchfork mob then they'd be dealing with this a couple times a year. In my opinion I think it's good that they handle things this way 99.999% of the time - for example, the one from another country annoys me and in my opinion he's a troll but I don't think he should be banned per se, while **** falls into the .001% that just need to be permabanned from ATG if not every subforum bar OT.

Also remember that this is not a paid gig for them. Generally in these situations it's best to stand aside and let the problems sort of work themselves out while still following the rules of the forum rather than let it even appear to get personal.

 

[Gillbot]

I would imagine it's tough for the mods to handle a situation such as this one. Keep in mind that if they ban someone every time there's a pitchfork mob then they'd be dealing with this a couple times a year. In my opinion I think it's good that they handle things this way 99.999% of the time - for example, the one from another country annoys me and in my opinion he's a troll but I don't think he should be banned per se, while **** falls into the .001% that just need to be permabanned from ATG if not every subforum bar OT.

Also remember that this is not a paid gig for them. Generally in these situations it's best to stand aside and let the problems sort of work themselves out while still following the rules of the forum rather than let it even appear to get personal.

Exactly. We just can't listen to a handful of people and lynch someone because of those few. Trust me, there will be changes. But we ARE just like GM, we need to spend way too much time researching the best thing to do, determine what can be done to "sidestep" these changes, address those sidesteps, research those changes, etc. It's a never ending cycle really. If it were as simple as just banning everyone we thought should or MAYBE should be banned, I'd be the only one posting here....

 

[MotF Bane]

Exactly. We just can't listen to a handful of people and lynch someone because of those few. Trust me, there will be changes. But we ARE just like GM, we need to spend way too much time researching the best thing to do, determine what can be done to "sidestep" these changes, address those sidesteps, research those changes, etc. It's a never ending cycle really. If it were as simple as just banning everyone we thought should or MAYBE should be banned, I'd be the only one posting here....

But it isn't a handful. Go ahead and make a poll, in any social forum you want, on whether somebody should be banned. You're going to see 90%+ in favor of the two bans, without a doubt. It isn't a few people who want it, it's pretty much everyone. We can all tell they're trolls, and trolling is listed in the Forum Guidelines as verboten.