@ ATPN Gun owners

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nick1985

Lifer
Dec 29, 2002
27,153
6
81
Or (far better) a Shotgun loaded with (BB to #2~ish) birdshot. You don't have to be as accurate, and Pump actions have the added deterrent value that you *WILL* get a reaction when the other guy hears you work the slide.

Terrible advice. Do NOT use a load that will not yield stopping power. Use buckshot.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

"Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job"

Also,

4. I "racked" the shotgun several times during the tests, and no bystanders lost control of their bowels.
Conclusion: Racking a shotgun will not make the bad guy faint.
 
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Scotteq

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2008
5,276
5
0
Terrible advice. Do NOT use a load that will not yield stopping power. Use buckshot.


I also live in a State with arguably the 2nd most restrictive gun laws, and some of the worst prisons, in the nation. A state where some Prosecutors have recommended you LEAVE your own house rather than defend against an intruder. It may not make sense to you (certainly doesn't to me), but they WILL go after YOU for defending yourself, if you don't do so in whatever constitutes an 'approved' manner in your district Prosecutor's mind. You *will* be brought before and interviewed by the district's Prosecutor, and you likely will have to explain your actions in front of a Grand Jury.

Personally, I'd rather be dead than spend 10~20 in Rahway State because some crack addict made me shoot him in a district where the Prosecutor has a hard on for gun owners.

And if this appears to you that Gun Owners have more to fear from their own State Government than from Criminals intruding in their homes.... Then I say "Welcome To New Jersey, the 'Liberty and Prosperity' state.",.


Oh - To add to my earlier post: The other guy better be armed, too. Shooting an unarmed man will land you in Prison reaaaaaal quick.



4. I "racked" the shotgun several times during the tests, and no bystanders lost control of their bowels.
Conclusion: Racking a shotgun will not make the bad guy faint.


Stupid argument: Racking a shotgun in someone's vicinity is a far cry from hearing a shotgun rack'd, and *knowing* it's pointed at YOU.
 
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Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
It's really nit~picky: But around here you're liable if/when the rounds you fired go through walls. Not a big deal if you live where there's plenty of space. A *really* big deal in a populated area, and there's neighbors on the other side of the (wall...yard...).

Not a popular choice among enthuisiasts... but if you Haz To: A large caliber revolver loaded with Frangibles (**for those who don't know: they're designed to break apart on impact and not over~penetrate).

Or (far better) a Shotgun loaded with (BB to #2~ish) birdshot. You don't have to be as accurate, and Pump actions have the added deterrent value that you *WILL* get a reaction when the other guy hears you work the slide. And now you can tell a Jury that you used 'Birdshot' because you didn't really want to kill anyone. As opposed to Buckshot, which has an effect much like a .30 cal pistol round, except there's more than 1 of them per trigger pull.




Around here, You're also vulnerable after the fact if a Prosecutor makes a case that your reaction was excessive (i.e. spraying bullets everywhere). And your assailant had better pass away *inside* your house, or they could (and have successfully) made a case that it wasn't necessary for you to shoot them because they were trying to leave. ...and that's manslaughter for YOU instead of B&E for him. And if you did, in fact, shoot the guy in the back: Call a lawyer now, because you will be sitting in front of a Grand Jury.

Birdshot is a damn good way to piss a bad guy off and get yourself killed. You NEVER shoot to injure or hurt you shoot to stop and no they are not the same thing. Use birdshot to hunt little birds NOT to cover your families ass.

See, the thing with "penetration" is in order for a round to be capable of reaching and damaging the vital organs, which is how you stop a bad guy, it has to be able to penetrate skin and all the other stuff protecting those organs. That also means that it will be able to penetrate some walls. #00 will in fact penetrate interior walls but not nearly as much as handgun or rifle ammo which is one reason it is preferred for home defense. The other main reason is that it is extremely effective at stopping a man and is in fact designed for large animals versus small birds.

And if you are EVER in a self defense shooting, shut the fuck up and get a lawyer now. Luckily we have decent laws that protect homeowners instead of criminals around here but the last thing you want to do is fuck up and say the wrong thing after one of the most stressful events in your life just took place.
 

nick1985

Lifer
Dec 29, 2002
27,153
6
81
I also live in a State with arguably the 2nd most restrictive gun laws, and some of the worst prisons, in the nation.

I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. No way in hell would I put my life and my GF's life at risk by using birdshot.

As far as the shotgun "racking" goes, I as well as many others have autos. The first thing they will hear is a slug + 3 buckshot(best shell ever made) tearing through their chest cavity. :thumbsup:
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
I also live in a State with the arguably the 2nd most restrictive gun laws, and some of the worst prisons, in the nation. A state where Prosecutors have recommended YOU leave YOUR OWN house rather than defend against an intruder. It may not make sense to you (certainly doesn't to me), but they WILL go after YOU for defending yourself, if you don't do so in whatever constitutes an 'approved' manner in your disctict Prosecutor's mind. You *will* be brought before and interviewed by district's Prosecutor, and you likely will have to explain your actions in front of a Grand Jury.

Personally, I'd rather be dead than spend 10~20 on Ryker's Island because some crack addict made me shoot him in a district where the Prosecutor has a hard on for gun owners.

And if this appears to you that Gun Owners have more to fear from their own State Government than from Criminals intruding in their homes.... Then I say "Welcome To New Jersey, the 'Liberty and Prosperity' state.",.


Oh - To add to my earlier post: The other guy better be armed, too. Shooting an unarmed man will land you in Prison reaaaaaal quick.






Stupid argument: Racking a shotgun in someone's vicinity is a far cry from hearing a shotgun rack'd, and *knowing* it's pointed at YOU.

It could help, but honestly I'd rather hit the guy with two Kimber Guardian Angel mace guns than racking the slide on a shotgun. As for birdshot, I guess it's better than nothing and you've always got the shotgun as a club, and in Jersey I might do the same.

Thankfully I live in a state with reasonable self-defense laws, so once I move into my apartment anyone who breaks in while I'm there will get 11 quick lessons in the ballistics of a Colt .45 1911. :)
 

Scotteq

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2008
5,276
5
0
I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. No way in hell would I put my life and my GF's life at risk by using birdshot.

As far as the shotgun "racking" goes, I as well as many others have autos. The first thing they will hear is a slug + 3 buckshot(best shell ever made) tearing through their chest cavity. :thumbsup:



And know that in NJ, you are still reponsible for that action. You do have the right to defend life and limb from immediate danger; but you also have to show the courts/prosecution that was really the case when you pulled the trigger.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
47,990
37,161
136
And if you are EVER in a self defense shooting, shut the fuck up and get a lawyer now. Luckily we have decent laws that protect homeowners instead of criminals around here but the last thing you want to do is fuck up and say the wrong thing after one of the most stressful events in your life just took place.

Best advice in the thread. No matter what the police or a prosecutor ask/tell you, do not utter a single syllable except telling them you wish to exercise your right to counsel.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
And know that in NJ, you are still reponsible for that action. You do have the right to defend life and limb from immediate danger; but you also have to show the courts/prosecution that was really the case when you pulled the trigger.

And if it's your word against a dead guy's? I'd imagine so long as you didn't shoot him in the side/back you'd be good.
 

Scotteq

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2008
5,276
5
0
And if it's your word against a dead guy's? I'd imagine so long as you didn't shoot him in the side/back you'd be good.


There is that...

And if you are EVER in a self defense shooting, shut the fuck up and get a lawyer now. Luckily we have decent laws that protect homeowners instead of criminals around here but the last thing you want to do is fuck up and say the wrong thing after one of the most stressful events in your life just took place.


Goes without saying. You might even be wise to have a general attorney on retainer who can cover you until the two of you locate a specialist. I do for other reasons.
 
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Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
I also live in a State with arguably the 2nd most restrictive gun laws, and some of the worst prisons, in the nation. A state where some Prosecutors have recommended you LEAVE your own house rather than defend against an intruder. It may not make sense to you (certainly doesn't to me), but they WILL go after YOU for defending yourself, if you don't do so in whatever constitutes an 'approved' manner in your district Prosecutor's mind. You *will* be brought before and interviewed by the district's Prosecutor, and you likely will have to explain your actions in front of a Grand Jury.

Personally, I'd rather be dead than spend 10~20 in Rahway State because some crack addict made me shoot him in a district where the Prosecutor has a hard on for gun owners.

And if this appears to you that Gun Owners have more to fear from their own State Government than from Criminals intruding in their homes.... Then I say "Welcome To New Jersey, the 'Liberty and Prosperity' state.",.


Oh - To add to my earlier post: The other guy better be armed, too. Shooting an unarmed man will land you in Prison reaaaaaal quick.

Not sure if you have a family or not but I would much prefer to face that grand jury and a trial if I must than to live with one of my daughters being injured, raped, or killed because daddy was to afraid of what might happen to him if he did what was necessary to stop the bad guys.

That is also why you shut the fuck up and get a lawyer if you are ever involved in a self defense shooting. "I feared for my life, I would like my lawyer present before I answer any further questions". Cops are informed by their unions to say basically the exact same thing so most of them will understand and if they don't anything they do will be better than you saying the wrong thing to them.




Stupid argument: Racking a shotgun in someone's vicinity is a far cry from hearing a shotgun rack'd, and *knowing* it's pointed at YOU.

The point of the argument is not to rely on the bad guy hearing the shotgun "rack'd" and running away.
 

Scotteq

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2008
5,276
5
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The point of the argument is not to rely on the bad guy hearing the shotgun "rack'd" and running away.


The opposing point is a layered defense: You don't necessarily rely on it. But it's there, and a great goodness if the other guy chooses wisely. Starts with locked doors and windows, a working alarm system, and security signs outside.
 
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Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. No way in hell would I put my life and my GF's life at risk by using birdshot.

As far as the shotgun "racking" goes, I as well as many others have autos. The first thing they will hear is a slug + 3 buckshot(best shell ever made) tearing through their chest cavity. :thumbsup:

Why the slug first? I keep one in my side saddle in case I am in a situation that I am required to teach a bad guy the difference between cover and concealment but I wouldn't want it to be the first shot I fire after being woken by someone breaking in.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Why the slug first? I keep one in my side saddle in case I am in a situation that I am required to teach a bad guy the difference between cover and concealment but I wouldn't want it to be the first shot I fire after being woken by someone breaking in.

It's a combo shell. Has slug and buck. Nice little round.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
The opposing point is a layered defense: You don't necessarily rely on it. But it's there, and a great goodness if the other guy chooses wisely.

Of course, if he runs then great but you are foolish to count on it. Personally, I would rather keep the element of surprise than to purposely let the bad guy know where I am.
 

Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
3,189
0
76
No, but it's useful as a supplementary motivator. It's a pretty small minority that will actually act solely out of some higher moral or intellectual reasoning. Most people only take serious action when personally threatened, and to pretend otherwise just because it feels good is simply naive.

In any case, the issue isn't so much gun rights as it is collectivism vs individualism. Americans are more individualist, other nations are more collectivist. The collectivists see lack of faith in government as the sign of the need for reform, see lack of action on that front and assume a fearful, incompetent populace. The individualists see lack of faith in government as perfectly reasonable, as they would rather deal with things on their own then trust a public nanny of an entity to make decisions for them. Few see eye to eye on either issue.

Personally I'm individualist as hell, and I am afraid about my government restricting my freedom, on guns and other issues. It's been proven to happen in the past, and there's always a chance for it to happen again. I have no desire to be told what to do by my government when it comes to my personal life, and frankly can barely understand those that do. I guess it's comforting when leaving the house to replace a parental figure with the government for the hard decisions. IDK.

You can be a collectivist, or an individualist, without it having to do anything about your opinions regarding government. I'd venture most people in the U.S. are controlled more by their spouses than anything the government does, and most of them do it voluntarily.

Anyway, I've yet to see any gun control legislation that has made sense to me. I see no reason to ban "scary" looking guns, or high capacity magazines. I WOULD like to see more background checks and gun safety training available.

We need more education about mental illness too, because the rampant media reporting about "paranoid schizophrenia" being the cause of this shooting is completely off base. Fact is, mental illness is extremely common. There are plenty of gun owners and non owners who have had mental illnesses, and this type of reporting is simply feeding into a societal stereotype about mental illness.
 
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Scotteq

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2008
5,276
5
0
Of course, if he runs then great but you are foolish to count on it. Personally, I would rather keep the element of surprise than to purposely let the bad guy know where I am.


I know my State is an aberration... That the situation here is non~sensical, bordering on ridiculous. And that the system is stacked in favor of criminals/prosecution against gun owners.


But I would *NOT* want to have to explain - *anywhere* - that I laid there quietly as the other guy wandered around the house, only to - without warning - pop up from behind the (bed) and ventilate his chest cavity with a couple slugs...
 
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Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
And know that in NJ, you are still reponsible for that action. You do have the right to defend life and limb from immediate danger; but you also have to show the courts/prosecution that was really the case when you pulled the trigger.

Not that I doubt you but it is supposed to be the other way around.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
I know my State is an aberration...


But I would *NOT* want to have to explain that I laid there quietly as the other guy wandered around the house, only to - without warning - pop up from behind the (bed) and ventilate his chest cavity with a couple slugs...

That is your lawyers job. I wouldn't want to explain to my wife that the bad guy started shooting wildly through the walls because I tried to scare him away by "racking" my shotgun. I also wouldn't lay quietly and wait for him to come to me though, I have kids and the absolute last thing I want is for anyone to make it into their rooms.

I do understand your point though, it really sucks that the laws appear to be more concerned with protecting the criminals than you.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
The opposing point is a layered defense: You don't necessarily rely on it. But it's there, and a great goodness if the other guy chooses wisely. Starts with locked doors and windows, a working alarm system, and security signs outside.

Indeed. I fully intend to have a little, unobtrusive sticker right about my deadbolt saying "This Apartment Protected by Colt, Sig-Sauer". And hopefully add Kel-Tec to that in the future when those KSGs start rolling off the line. Most criminals are looking for an easy score, and will shy away from a hard target. Better to make it so they can't easily get in in the first place.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
Goes without saying. You might even be wise to have a general attorney on retainer who can cover you until the two of you locate a specialist. I do for other reasons.

You think that it goes without saying but your common decent person, especially after an uber stressful event like a self defense shooting, looks at the police as being on "their" side and since they did nothing wrong why not talk to them. They rarely think that they might say something stupid in the heat of the moment that could mean the difference between not even a trial and 20 years in prison.

You would be amazed at how many innocent people that can afford good lawyers allow themselves to be interrogated by the police without one.

And yes, I have had a lawyer on retainer for quite sometime now. Like you, it isn't specifically for anything involving guns or self defense, just an insurance policy. It will be the best money you have ever spent if you actually need that insurance too.
 

Scotteq

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2008
5,276
5
0
And know that in NJ, you are still reponsible for that action. You do have the right to defend life and limb from immediate danger; but you also have to show the courts/prosecution that was really the case when you pulled the trigger.

Not that I doubt you but it is supposed to be the other way around.


That's why they bring you to a Grand Jury: You have to explain yourself (or your lawyer does it for you) in light of the forensic evidence that the police will collect. They then determine whether the State will grant the 'Self Defense' exception, or if you proceed to Trial for Manslaughter.

Which - if you're a cynical baztard like me - is akin to being asked if you want the normal 7 loops on the noose, or only 4... o_O
 
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Scotteq

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2008
5,276
5
0
You think that it goes without saying but your common decent person, especially after an uber stressful event like a self defense shooting, looks at the police as being on "their" side and since they did nothing wrong why not talk to them. They rarely think that they might say something stupid in the heat of the moment that could mean the difference between not even a trial and 20 years in prison.

Point well earned. :)
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
Indeed. I fully intend to have a little, unobtrusive sticker right about my deadbolt saying "This Apartment Protected by Colt, Sig-Sauer". And hopefully add Kel-Tec to that in the future when those KSGs start rolling off the line. Most criminals are looking for an easy score, and will shy away from a hard target. Better to make it so they can't easily get in in the first place.

Or advertise what you've got in the house to make it a more appealing target.