@ ATPN Gun owners

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irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
Can't have an American without fear, as shown over and over.

You mean because we actively criticize and challenge our government instead of just assuming they're right because "good government" is in our moto?

Yeah I'll take a fearful populace over a submissive one.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
Put a bayonet lug on the end of it and it will be. Evidently the thugs have been using bayonets to conserve ammo or something.

It's the new thing in the hood ...

images
 

DukeN

Golden Member
Dec 12, 1999
1,422
0
76
You mean because we actively criticize and challenge our government instead of just assuming they're right because "good government" is in our moto?

Yeah I'll take a fearful populace over a submissive one.

Fear is not needed for critique/protest. Of course, Americans think you can't have one without the other.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
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Fear is not needed for critique/protest. Of course, Americans think you can't have one without the other.

No, but it's useful as a supplementary motivator. It's a pretty small minority that will actually act solely out of some higher moral or intellectual reasoning. Most people only take serious action when personally threatened, and to pretend otherwise just because it feels good is simply naive.

In any case, the issue isn't so much gun rights as it is collectivism vs individualism. Americans are more individualist, other nations are more collectivist. The collectivists see lack of faith in government as the sign of the need for reform, see lack of action on that front and assume a fearful, incompetent populace. The individualists see lack of faith in government as perfectly reasonable, as they would rather deal with things on their own then trust a public nanny of an entity to make decisions for them. Few see eye to eye on either issue.

Personally I'm individualist as hell, and I am afraid about my government restricting my freedom, on guns and other issues. It's been proven to happen in the past, and there's always a chance for it to happen again. I have no desire to be told what to do by my government when it comes to my personal life, and frankly can barely understand those that do. I guess it's comforting when leaving the house to replace a parental figure with the government for the hard decisions. IDK.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
Fear is not needed for critique/protest. Of course, Americans think you can't have one without the other.

When your critique, and protest are met with government arms you will sing a different tune. We don't depend on the hospitality of our government to let us protest and critique, the second is there to ensure that hospitality.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
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When your critique, and protest are met with government arms you will sing a different tune. We don't depend on the hospitality of our government to let us protest and critique, the second is there to ensure that hospitality.

Different maybe, but probably not very productive. The thing I don't understand is how other nations boast about how great their society is, when they don't even trust said society with guns. They haven't removed guns because they don't need them, they've removed them out of fear of each other. If they didn't need them the they would still be legal, people just wouldn't buy them.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
Different maybe, but probably not very productive. The thing I don't understand is how other nations boast about how great their society is, when they don't even trust said society with guns. They haven't removed guns because they don't need them, they've removed them out of fear of each other. If they didn't need them the they would still be legal, people just wouldn't buy them.

That is an interesting assessment. When I lived in Germany I never once felt that I was in any danger, even in the "ghetto". I honestly have a very hard time seeing guns as having been an issue there, at least anything like they are here, so it would seem to me that they are even more afraid than many foreigners claim Americans are.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
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Yes, but the vast majority I've met are moderate-conservative or conservative. I've met declared Democrats that mildly support or don't care about gun rights, I know one that hunts. I have yet to meet any that carry.

At the very least there probably would be at the state level in some places. Just my prediction. Bottom line is a hyper-sensitive reaction to things like this, even if occasionally misplaced, is justified given the slippery slope associated with guns and gun laws.

I can introduce you to a couple dozen in person, and thousands through various gun rights groups I'm in. Then again the NW is a pretty odd mix of libertarian/democrat.
 
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Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
So I have to ask, what would be the harm in reducing the availability of high capacity handgun magazines?

I disagree with the AWB that was formerly in place, but I see little harm to current or future handgun owners if HC magazines were unavailable.

Pretty simple. It's less effective in stopping threats since you don't always hit under stress and barriers and multiple assailants and maybe people are shooting back at you. US troops use 250,000 bullets per kill. I suspect an untrained 24/7 non combat troop to be worse.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,910
6,278
136
Pretty simple. It's less effective in stopping threats since you don't always hit under stress and barriers and multiple assailants and maybe people are shooting back at you. US troops use 250,000 bullets per kill. I suspect an untrained 24/7 non combat troop to be worse.
Last report I saw was 10% for bad guys and 19% for LEOs during a gun fight.o_O
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Last report I saw was 10% for bad guys and 19% for LEOs during a gun fight.o_O

Hitting paper is easy when paper isn't moving all over the place and firing back.

There's all kinds of stats/studies that back up what Zebo is saying. Hitting the target under stress is MUCH harder than people think. That's why you should train to the point where it's automatic, no thinking involved. Even then you're going to miss with most of your rounds.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Hitting paper is easy when paper isn't moving all over the place and firing back.

There's all kinds of stats/studies that back up what Zebo is saying. Hitting the target under stress is MUCH harder than people think. That's why you should train to the point where it's automatic, no thinking involved. Even then you're going to miss with most of your rounds.

I've hunted since I was 5. Had a lifetime hunting and fishing license since 7. Got all the training I need. It's funny going hunting with cop friends of mine and I'll have limit by 9am and they are still out in the field at noon while I'm in truck sucking cold ones. They are good at shooting mocking birds tho LOL:p I am also fairly good at three gun even tho I just started a couple years ago. Anyway I still would not go into a combat situation without a 180 rd loadout. Home defense is worse than people can imagine because of cover everywhere,darkness, little pistols which barley shoot though walls etc. Basically you're screwed if you don't have lots of firepower and guys are determined. Throwing down suppressive fire is the only way to survive and that requires lots of ammo.
 
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Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Last report I saw was 10% for bad guys and 19% for LEOs during a gun fight.o_O

Sounds about right. And there is the problem with 10 round limitations. Statistically, You're only allowed to be attacked by 1 person then it's time to die. Not to mention "shall not be infringed" part of Constitution is getting raped.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
I've hunted since I was 5. Had a lifetime hunting and fishing license since 7. Got all the training I need. It's funny going hunting with cop friends of mine and I'll have limit by 9am and they are still out in the field at noon while I'm in truck sucking cold ones. They are good at shooting mocking birds tho LOL:p I am also fairly good at three gun even tho I just started a couple years ago. Anyway I still would not go into a combat situation without a 180 rd loadout. Home defense is worse than people can imagine because of cover everywhere,darkness, little pistols which barley shoot though walls etc. Basically you're screwed if you don't have lots of firepower and guys are determined. Throwing down suppressive fire is the only way to survive and that requires lots of ammo.

The boxotruth would disagree with you.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
24,205
10,865
136
http://mineola.patch.com/articles/mccarthy-to-present-bill-banning-high-capacity-ammo-clips

"McCarthy to Present Bill Banning High Capacity Ammo Clips"

Well they are called magazines, not clips, but she is just an ignorant anti-gun fool that doesn't know what she is talking about.

Anyway, there is legislation being presented. The president is in favor of this legislation. All that is stopping this bill from passing is some seats in the House. Hardly paranoia.

Like that bill has any chance of passing. Continue with your rant.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Like that bill has any chance of passing. Continue with your rant.
Translation: Our side wants to disarm you and remove your Constitutional rights, but that doesn't matter 'cause they'll probably fail. Nice.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
24,205
10,865
136
Translation: Our side wants to disarm you and remove your Constitutional rights, but that doesn't matter 'cause they'll probably fail. Nice.

Please show polls results of people claiming to being left of center advocating what you claim. Not random quotes which are what they are, just talk.

Actually, the last Bush administration's march to a police state made me wake up about gun rights.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Please show polls results of people claiming to being left of center advocating what you claim. Not random quotes which are what they are, just talk.

Actually, the last Bush administration's march to a police state made me wake up about gun rights.
A legislator introducing laws is "just talk"? A sitting President who advocates same is "just talk"? Do you imagine laws are delivered randomly by the law fairy? Many left-of-center politicians advocate completely disarming the general public; many more advocate removing from the general public weapons they consider concealable (weapons) or scary ("assault weapons".) Luckily the public has little taste for such measures now that they have been shown to have a negative effect on public safety, so even when the Dems had their large, filibuster-proof majority the issue was a non-starter, but please don't deny that much of the left wants a disarmed populace.
 

nick1985

Lifer
Dec 29, 2002
27,153
6
81
Like that bill has any chance of passing. Continue with your rant.

You are missing the point. 2 things are preventing this bill. Seats in the House and 1 seat on the Supreme Court. If this tragedy happened 6 months ago, this bill would have even more steam and may have passed. The point is to show how quickly we can be stripped of our rights. You have a senator introducing a bill that the President agrees with. It CAN happen, not now, but it could very well happen in the future.

You are right though, my rights wont be taken at this moment. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be on guard when stuff like this gets introduced, ESPECIALLY when the POTUS agrees with it and would sign it in a heartbeat.
 

Scotteq

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2008
5,276
5
0
I've hunted since I was 5. Had a lifetime hunting and fishing license since 7. Got all the training I need. It's funny going hunting with cop friends of mine and I'll have limit by 9am and they are still out in the field at noon while I'm in truck sucking cold ones. They are good at shooting mocking birds tho LOL:p I am also fairly good at three gun even tho I just started a couple years ago. Anyway I still would not go into a combat situation without a 180 rd loadout. Home defense is worse than people can imagine because of cover everywhere,darkness, little pistols which barley shoot though walls etc. Basically you're screwed if you don't have lots of firepower and guys are determined. Throwing down suppressive fire is the only way to survive and that requires lots of ammo.



It's really nit~picky: But around here you're liable if/when the rounds you fired go through walls. Not a big deal if you live where there's plenty of space. A *really* big deal in a populated area, and there's neighbors on the other side of the (wall...yard...).

Not a popular choice among enthuisiasts... but if you Haz To: A large caliber revolver loaded with Frangibles (**for those who don't know: they're designed to break apart on impact and not over~penetrate).

Or (far better) a Shotgun loaded with (BB to #2~ish) birdshot. You don't have to be as accurate, and Pump actions have the added deterrent value that you *WILL* get a reaction when the other guy hears you work the slide. And now you can tell a Jury that you used 'Birdshot' because you didn't really want to kill anyone. As opposed to Buckshot, which has an effect much like a .30 cal pistol round, except there's more than 1 of them per trigger pull.




Around here, You're also vulnerable after the fact if a Prosecutor makes a case that your reaction was excessive (i.e. spraying bullets everywhere). And your assailant had better pass away *inside* your house, or they could (and have successfully) made a case that it wasn't necessary for you to shoot them because they were trying to leave. ...and that's manslaughter for YOU instead of B&E for him. And if you did, in fact, shoot the guy in the back: Call a lawyer now, because you will be sitting in front of a Grand Jury.
 
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spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Scotteq,

Your state is one of the worst in the nation for gun rights. Everything you described is covered by castle doctrine laws in the rest of the free states. Start writing/calling your state legislators. NJ is next on the list for the supreme court smack down.
 

Scotteq

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2008
5,276
5
0
Scotteq,

Your state is one of the worst in the nation for gun rights. Everything you described is covered by castle doctrine laws in the rest of the free states. Start writing/calling your state legislators. NJ is next on the list for the supreme court smack down.


Not arguing with that.


But if you're going to Own, then you damned well better know this stuff.