ATOT: Need job/attitude advice

[Carson Dyle]

Reading through this thread, you're clearly a contractor (although they may very well be taking advantage of that designation and violating the law) and not an employee. Things like holiday pay are a benefit, not something owed to you. Giving a contractor holiday pay would be like offering to pay for a teeth cleaning - it just wouldn't cross anyone's mind; you're not on the payroll.

I've worked for a _lot_ of small companies and can't think of a single one that either:

a) hired someone as a temporary and kept them hanging for six months, without either making it explicitly clear that the position will remain temporary, or hiring them.

or

b) had a full time contractor running around doing everything under the sun and answering to the company's beck and call.

If you're kept on as a temporary employee, you're just plain getting screwed.

If you're a contractor, and you're going to continue to be a contractor, then I'm guessing you're being underpaid bay a factor of at least 3-5x. If they can make it worth your while by agreeing to a realistic contractual hourly rate, then screw the benefits, holiday pay, overtime pay, etc. When you're billing someone $120/hour you don't worry about not getting time and a half for that extra 20 hours you worked last week. And you can afford your own health insurance and retirement plan funding.

 

[rudeguy]

Pics or it didn't happen

It didn't happen

 

[rudeguy]

Reading through this thread, you're clearly a contractor (although they may very well be taking advantage of that designation and violating the law) and not an employee. Things like holiday pay are a benefit, not something owed to you. Giving a contractor holiday pay would be like offering to pay for a teeth cleaning - it just wouldn't cross anyone's mind; you're not on the payroll.

I've worked for a _lot_ of small companies and can't think of a single one that either:

a) hired someone as a temporary and kept them hanging for six months, without either making it explicitly clear that the position will remain temporary, or hiring them.

or

b) had a full time contractor running around doing everything under the sun and answering to the company's beck and call.

If you're kept on as a temporary employee, you're just plain getting screwed.

If you're a contractor, and you're going to continue to be a contractor, then I'm guessing you're being underpaid bay a factor of at least 3-5x. If they can make it worth your while by agreeing to a realistic contractual hourly rate, then screw the benefits, holiday pay, overtime pay, etc. When you're billing someone $120/hour you don't worry about not getting time and a half for that extra 20 hours you worked last week. And you can afford your own health insurance and retirement plan funding.

I can completely understand what you are saying. I have never worked for our dealt with a company like I work for. They do a huge volume of business with a small amount of employees. Craziness is a constant there. I mean they own three planes just to fly employees around and just bought a jet! So the CEO is always busy as are the rest of us. Time is precious.

After CES I will have a sit down with him since by then things will be back to normal crazy level. If he doesn't give me the number I am looking for, then I'm done. That would leave them holding a ton of equipment and inventory they can't use without me. Neither of us wants that.

I'm still fishing for other things but I'm not casting out as much.

 

[Carson Dyle]

Craziness and hard work really aren't that unusual in small companies. Unfortunately, neither is screwing over workers.

You need to get the owner and the CEO into a meeting (face to face, same room), without interruptions, and simply ask: What's my status? Let's get it ironed out here and now. Make sure that they both know what the meeting will be about ahead of time, so they can't say "We'll get back to you."

You're getting jacked around, whether or not it's intentional.

 

[OCGuy]

Please dont listen to this person. You are not a contractor in any sense of the word. (Not that you are doing anything about it anyway)

 

[Carson Dyle]

Please dont listen to this person. You are not a contractor in any sense of the word. (Not that you are doing anything about it anyway)

If they're treating him as a contractor, then he's a contractor. Many companies abuse and violate the law here, and few of them ever suffer any consequences. I suppose he could challenge them on it, or even mount a legal battle, but I'd guess that the chances of full time employment afterward would probably be nil.

 

[OverVolt]

I wish you luck man. When will it get busy next? Think logically about it. Maybe wait a month and press the issue again and gauge their response.

 

[AViking]

You repeatedly make excuses for them. I understand how busy a small business can be but if they're buying jets and doing all the business you say they're doing then they can surely compensate you fairly.

I personally think you're getting exploited. If they gave you an envelop of cash it kinda reinforces that in my mind. Ask yourself why they would want to pay you in cash? It generally works the other way around. They want to pay themselves in cash so that they can pull in a $1M income but only pay taxes on $500,000. If they're paying you in cash then might that have something to do with the law and that if they give you x amount of dollars and hours you are not considered a contractor anymore but instead should be receiving benefits?

 

[jaedaliu]

You repeatedly make excuses for them. I understand how busy a small business can be but if they're buying jets and doing all the business you say they're doing then they can surely compensate you fairly.

I personally think you're getting exploited. If they gave you an envelop of cash it kinda reinforces that in my mind. Ask yourself why they would want to pay you in cash? It generally works the other way around. They want to pay themselves in cash so that they can pull in a $1M income but only pay taxes on $500,000. If they're paying you in cash then might that have something to do with the law and that if they give you x amount of dollars and hours you are not considered a contractor anymore but instead should be receiving benefits?

I don't think he's received cash.

To Rudeguy:

You're smart enough to know that actions speak louder than words. Get your resume out there. Maybe they'll be true to the word, and give you the permanent hire that you've been waiting for next week. Then it won't matter if your resume is on Monster.

Maybe things are busy this week. And next. And the month after that. Then the quarter, year, decade, etc. You (and your son) are #1. Getting the salary that you think you are worth is part of taking care of yourself.

 

[AViking]

I'm not going to say I was just handed an envelope of cash as a reward for my work with the thing.....but...

I read this as he got cash.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

I'm wondering what the next excuse will be from management after CES, OP. Do they have an MLK Day sale that will keep the CEO "crazy busy"? After that, a Valentine's Day event/show?

I don't understand the dynamic where the "owner" wants you hired but the "CEO" has to make it happen on his own timeframe. That makes no sense to me. If they just bought a new plane, they have money to hire you and they're just making excuses. Again, to hire you, it takes an email from the CEO to your HR person and boom, it's done. It isn't like the CEO is sitting at his desk conducting your background check, filling out all the paperwork, etc.

 

[rudeguy]

You repeatedly make excuses for them. I understand how busy a small business can be but if they're buying jets and doing all the business you say they're doing then they can surely compensate you fairly.

I personally think you're getting exploited. If they gave you an envelop of cash it kinda reinforces that in my mind. Ask yourself why they would want to pay you in cash? It generally works the other way around. They want to pay themselves in cash so that they can pull in a $1M income but only pay taxes on $500,000. If they're paying you in cash then might that have something to do with the law and that if they give you x amount of dollars and hours you are not considered a contractor anymore but instead should be receiving benefits?

as I've said too many times to count in this thread: Its not a money thing, its a time thing.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

as I've said too many times to count in this thread: Its not a money thing, its a time thing.

He doesn't have 5 minutes to spare to send an email to HR and say "Hire this guy"? If he doesn't have the time, he needs to make the time.

 

[rudeguy]

He doesn't have 5 minutes to spare to send an email to HR and say "Hire this guy"? If he doesn't have the time, he needs to make the time.

I don't think he knows what to offer me. I do think the good part of all this is its getting to the point where he will give me what I want just to have the issue resolved. 2 envelopes in 2 days is a good sign right?

 

[IndyColtsFan]

I don't think he knows what to offer me. I do think the good part of all this is its getting to the point where he will give me what I want just to have the issue resolved. 2 envelopes in 2 days is a good sign right?

They know what they're paying you now. They know what their benefit package costs. What offer to make you is not a hard figure to compute. If you say no, HR can send an email to him and say "Rudeguy wants 5% more. Do you approve?"

 

[rudeguy]

They know what they're paying you now. They know what their benefit package costs. What offer to make you is not a hard figure to compute. If you say no, HR can send an email to him and say "Rudeguy wants 5% more. Do you approve?"

We don't have HR.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

We don't have HR.

What kind of company can afford to buy planes but doesn't have a single HR person? Didn't you say there were 100-200 employees?

 

[rudeguy]

What kind of company can afford to buy planes but doesn't have a single HR person? Didn't you say there were 100-200 employees?

I think its about 100 but that is across the country. Each manager handles their own stuff. Since I really don't have a manager...I'm stuck.

 

[AViking]

You have an office worker who handles all that. Even in a company with 3 people one of them is having to do that paperwork. The excuses are not valid.

Just cover your ass. Ultimately this is your life but if you were smart you would be looking for a new job while trying to negotiate this mess.

You should create a CV or presentation of some sort that shows your accomplishments and value to the company. Present this to them and tell them that you are sympathetic to their time constraints and this should make it much easier. Do something other than sit there and make excuses for them. No matter how busy they are what you are talking about is 30 minutes of his time and less than an hour for whoever does the employee paperwork.

 

[OCGuy]

as I've said too many times to count in this thread: Its not a money thing, its a time thing.

You are the guy that falls for it when a girl says "I'm just not ready for a relationship right now, but if I was, it would be you!" aren't you Rudeguy?

Just like idiot (ok we have all been there) guys will give a chick basically everything that goes with a relationship but not get sex. (friendship, shoulder to cry on, etc) You are giving your company everything that an employee can give them, except you aren't getting what is good for you in return.

Not only are you not eligible for UI if you get laid off...or disability if you get hurt.....but unless you know what you are doing you are going to get a big tax bill. Not only are you not getting paid travel and OT, but you'll never see holidays either.

Going only by what you have said, it seems to me like you are an expendable employee to them. They really don't care if you come or go. This could be because you aren't a fit for them, or they just don't have the business to justify actually compensating you correctly.


The "time" it takes to fill out an I-9 and pay you correctly as a W-2 employee? Almost nothing. The cost it would take to do so? You would be surprised.

 

[jaedaliu]

I think its about 100 but that is across the country. Each manager handles their own stuff. Since I really don't have a manager...I'm stuck.

So every manager has to understand state law on labor?

Unless you REALLY like working for this company, the smart move is probably to document all the hours you worked that you weren't paid for, and get a lawyer and sue them for back pay.

In California, an employee isn't actually exempt unless they supervise at least 3 employees (this "fact" told to me by word of mouth by a HR manager.) So the company would legally have to pay you for every second you worked.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

You have an office worker who handles all that. Even in a company with 3 people one of them is having to do that paperwork. The excuses are not valid.

Bingo. Surely Mr. "Super Busy CEO" has an assistant. A good manager knows how to allocate resources and avoid individual people being bottlenecks and in this case, if this guy doesn't have someone who manages all of that for him, he isn't managing properly.

Just cover your ass. Ultimately this is your life but if you were smart you would be looking for a new job while trying to negotiate this mess.

Bingo again. Go on interviews, rudeguy. If they really value you and see evidence of you going on interviews (like taking off in the middle of the week, dressing up at work, etc), they'll become motivated.

To be honest though, I'm not sure why you would want to work there.

You should create a CV or presentation of some sort that shows your accomplishments and value to the company. Present this to them and tell them that you are sympathetic to their time constraints and this should make it much easier. Do something other than sit there and make excuses for them. No matter how busy they are what you are talking about is 30 minutes of his time and less than an hour for whoever does the employee paperwork.

And this. As I told you rudeguy, look at the CEO's calendar in Outlook (or whichever calendaring system you use) and book a 30 to 60 minute meeting in that time slot. He won't have an excuse once he accepts that meeting.

So every manager has to understand state law on labor?

Unless you REALLY like working for this company, the smart move is probably to document all the hours you worked that you weren't paid for, and get a lawyer and sue them for back pay.

In California, an employee isn't actually exempt unless they supervise at least 3 employees (this "fact" told to me by word of mouth by a HR manager.) So the company would legally have to pay you for every second you worked.

It certainly explains some of their questionable labor practices, doesn't it?

 

[BoberFett]

So every manager has to understand state law on labor?

Unless you REALLY like working for this company, the smart move is probably to document all the hours you worked that you weren't paid for, and get a lawyer and sue them for back pay.

In California, an employee isn't actually exempt unless they supervise at least 3 employees (this "fact" told to me by word of mouth by a HR manager.) So the company would legally have to pay you for every second you worked.

So much this.

This whole company is sounding more and more like a scam.

 

[rudeguy]

Bingo. Surely Mr. "Super Busy CEO" has an assistant. A good manager knows how to allocate resources and avoid individual people being bottlenecks and in this case, if this guy doesn't have someone who manages all of that for him, he isn't managing properly.

He has an assistant. She doesn't run his schedule though.

Bingo again. Go on interviews, rudeguy. If they really value you and see evidence of you going on interviews (like taking off in the middle of the week, dressing up at work, etc), they'll become motivated.

The CEO rarely sees me. No one keeps track of me other than me.

To be honest though, I'm not sure why you would want to work there.

Because its a good place to work. Everyone here is awesome. I have a shit ton of freedom to do whatever I want. I can take on new projects, do as little or as much as I want. The owner is awesome about buying me whatever I need.

And this. As I told you rudeguy, look at the CEO's calendar in Outlook (or whichever calendaring system you use) and book a 30 to 60 minute meeting in that time slot. He won't have an excuse once he accepts that meeting.

No shared calendar system here either. Most people use webmail because they can't handle Outlook (no really).

It certainly explains some of their questionable labor practices, doesn't it?

Its a small business without an HR department. Everything might not be up to spec but stuff gets done.

 

[xeemzor]

I don't understand why you work so hard to defend them when then they are obviously taking advantage of you. Of course they buy you equipment to play with and keep you working instead of giving you more money. Of course they give you freedom because that is cheaper than paying you more. Do you think that in a company of 100 people you are that unique that they couldn't just straight up hire you? How do you think the other 100 people got a job? Any company with enough time and money to buy airplanes has a large enough HR department to do the paperwork in 30 minutes.

It's not a personal attack on you to say the company sucks. Just stop trying to defend shitty employment practices.