ATOT Handymen: Help needed with sump pump

[lykaon78]

My sump pump was been running constantly with all the melting snow. Recently it has started to stutter. Basically after a normal pumping cycle it quickly cycles off and on for maybe 2 to 4 additional cycles.

I have a back up system which is functioning fine and so far hasn't had to take over.

Is this a sign of the beginning of the end? The unit is about 5 years old. I can't see anything obstructing the pump or obviously wrong with it either.

How hard is it going to be to swap this pump out for a new one if that is what I need to do?

 

[Rubycon]

What kind of switch does it use to turn on and off?

If it's a float switch that slides up and down on a rod (pedestal pump) and you pull up on the paddle (in between the trippers) to engage the pump and the motor runs fine then the problem is not with the pump.

If it's a submersible pump check the switch (the solid state sensor types can be problematic if they are fouled with debris, etc.). Also make sure the line is not blocked. Check the inline check valve too. If it's partially stuck or damaged it can cause weird effects like you're describing.

 

[iGas]

It could very well be debris and/or stuck float.

Check the inline check valve too. If it's partially stuck or damaged it can cause weird effects like you're describing

It is highly unlikely that the culprit is the check valve because the sump holding tank have to be pretty small for line backflow to fill it.

 

[Rubycon]

It could very well be debris and/or stuck float.


It is highly unlikely that the culprit is the check valve because the sump holding tank have to pretty small for line backflow to fill it.

Yes as in reversing causing surging on and off. But a flapper style check valve that cannot open fully unrestricted can cause noise and bumping. (assuming typical 1/3 hp pump and 1 1/4" discharge line)

 

[iGas]

Yes as in reversing causing surging on and off. But a flapper style check valve that cannot open fully unrestricted can cause noise and bumping. (assuming typical 1/3 hp pump and 1 1/4" discharge line)

Average sump pit & pump sizing is for around 2 minute runtime (actual calculation is liters of rain fall [surface of roof and/or deck drain * local seasonal average rain fall per 15 minutes ++ head/lift ++ length of discharge pipe] and ground water) therefore the pipe got to be pretty long to fill 20-30 gallons before the pump engage.

1.25" x 12" pipe hold 0.0530 gallons.

20gal / 0.0530gal = 377.35' of 1.25" pipe.

 

[Rubycon]

Average sump pit & pump sizing is for around 2 minute runtime (actual calculation is liters of rain fall [surface of roof and/or deck drain * local seasonal average rain fall per 15 minutes ++ head/lift ++ length of discharge pipe] and ground water) therefore the pipe got to be pretty long to fill 20-30 gallons before the pump engage.

1.25" x 12" pipe hold 0.0530 gallons.

20gal / 0.0530gal = 377.35' of 1.25" pipe.

What I'm saying is if the valve flapper is stuck partially open it can cause a noise or shudder. It has nothing to do with backflow from an uphill long run like you're describing.

What we don't know is what kind of switch the OP has. The solid state switches can do this if they are dirty and become sensitive. (a simple splash from the backflow after stopping can cause the pump to be triggered briefly).

 

[iGas]

What I'm saying is if the valve flapper is stuck partially open it can cause a noise or shudder. It has nothing to do with backflow from an uphill long run like you're describing.

It might but from my experience I haven't seen one or heard of one that done it.

<---- license plumbing/gas/HVAC

 

[lykaon78]

Going down to the basement now to re-look at the pit. I didn't notice a float switch so I think I have a submersible pump. But I'll double check.

Whats the average life on these things anyway?

 

[JulesMaximus]

Sometimes I'm glad I don't have a basement. My sister and her husband have 2 sump pumps in their basement. I was there about a month ago and it rained like hell one day and the main pump was running 24/7 with the backup pump kicking on and off every 3-4 minutes.

 

[lykaon78]

first iGas and Rubycon thanks for all the feedback.

I re-checked the pit and I do have the float type pump. I was thinking of a float similar to the type in the cabinet of a toilet but my float is situated immediately next to the pump with an arm connected between the pump and the float.

When I lift and hold the arm of the float the pump will completely drain the pit without stuttering and when I release the arm the pump shuts off immediately.

Within a minute or so water returns to about the 1 to 1.5 inch mark but from the looks of my pit water never goes above the 6 inch mark and its never hits the half way mark where the back up float is sitting.

Any ideas?

 

[runzwithsizorz]

While your down in that pit, make sure the relief/vent hole isn't clogged. I am quite surprised the *experts* have not brought this up.

 

[lykaon78]

While your down in that pit, make sure the relief/vent hole isn't clogged. I am quite surprised the *experts* have not brought this up.

Too late but I left the screws loose so I can easily get back in. Can you describe what I should be looking for? I'm not sure I know what the relief/vent hole is or where it is (the pump I assume).

 

[Rubycon]

Going down to the basement now to re-look at the pit. I didn't notice a float switch so I think I have a submersible pump. But I'll double check.

Whats the average life on these things anyway?

So many variables. Cheap plastic models with rubber encased floating tilt activated switches MAY last a few years of light "moisture removal" duties.

Most pumps are NOT rated for continuous duty. The ones that are cost much more and are made of metal with robust switches or are hardwired with a contactor activated by a sensor, etc.

If the pump is not maintained and the strainer gets clogged with debris its capacity is significantly diminished. Some debris from cloth can work its way into the impeller area and foul the bearing or increase the load on the motor until it fails thermally or opens a thermal protection device, etc.

A lot of pumps fail when they sit in the sump for years only coming on once or twice every now and then during an unusual rain storm. Then when you have a flood when lots of snowpack suddenly melts with no place for the water to go they run and run and may not be able to keep or die.

This is why you should periodically check the pump and make sure it runs! That means hooking up a hose and filling the sump and letting it run. You can also unplug the cord, fill the sump as high as you can and plug it in to see how fast it pumps the water out.

A good time to do this is when you drain your water heater tank. That's another thing most people don't address.

first iGas and Rubycon thanks for all the feedback.

I re-checked the pit and I do have the float type pump. I was thinking of a float similar to the type in the cabinet of a toilet but my float is situated immediately next to the pump with an arm connected between the pump and the float.

When I lift and hold the arm of the float the pump will completely drain the pit without stuttering and when I release the arm the pump shuts off immediately.

Within a minute or so water returns to about the 1 to 1.5 inch mark but from the looks of my pit water never goes above the 6 inch mark and its never hits the half way mark where the back up float is sitting.

Any ideas?

Sounds like you have a LOT of water under your slab and it's just filling up to its own level (water always seeks to its own level. So this problem may go away once the soil under your house returns to normal moisture levels.

Too late but I left the screws loose so I can easily get back in. Can you describe what I should be looking for? I'm not sure I know what the relief/vent hole is or where it is (the pump I assume).

Usually you will see water "weeping" from this area when the pump is running if so equipped.

 

[Fritzo]

Usually the float switch is what goes out on these.

If it does need replaced, they're like $70 and can be installed to existing pipes in about 15 minutes in most cases.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Sometimes I'm glad I don't have a basement. My sister and her husband have 2 sump pumps in their basement. I was there about a month ago and it rained like hell one day and the main pump was running 24/7 with the backup pump kicking on and off every 3-4 minutes.

Nah it's only bad if you are in a very bad water table area or below the sewage line. I have a sump pit and no pump, and it rains constantly in the summer here. It drains faster then the weeping tile pipes can fill it up. Right now the pit is bone dry though. I'll see in May how it handles snow melt though. But we don't have that much snow, 1-2 feet give or take. I've thought of installing a pump just to be on the safe side in case the main drain gets blocked, or if I get sewer backup (very unlikely here) or what not.

 

[runzwithsizorz]

Too late but I left the screws loose so I can easily get back in. Can you describe what I should be looking for? I'm not sure I know what the relief/vent hole is or where it is (the pump I assume).

In the diagram, it's marked hole. If clogged it will give you the symptoms you describe, will also eventually kill the motor. Some of what you say makes no sense; when you say back-up float, do you mean the alarm? do you have two pits, and two pumps? I have never heard of a dual float system. Also, never heard of a sump pump starting at only the 6" level, that's when they are supposed to turn off.
BTW, If your going to listen to anyone, listen to RUBYCON. This *person* never ceases to amaze me.
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/kingpumps_2093_49963396

 

[lykaon78]

In the diagram, it's marked hole. If clogged it will give you the symptoms you describe, will also eventually kill the motor. Some of what you say makes no sense; when you say back-up float, do you mean the alarm? do you have two pits, and two pumps? I have never heard of a dual float system. Also, never heard of a sump pump starting at only the 6" level, that's when they are supposed to turn off.
BTW, If your going to listen to anyone, listen to RUBYCON. This *person* never ceases to amaze me.
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/kingpumps_2093_49963396

Frankly, I don't know what I'm talking about.

I have one pit with a main pump and a backup pump. About 12 inches higher than the regular pump there sometype of trigger thats connected to the back-up pump. Whether that is the alarm or the float for the backup - I don't know.

 

[MovingTarget]

<3 Rubycon

 

[DrPizza]

Sometimes I'm glad I don't have a basement. My sister and her husband have 2 sump pumps in their basement. I was there about a month ago and it rained like hell one day and the main pump was running 24/7 with the backup pump kicking on and off every 3-4 minutes.

Not all basements even need sump pumps. Depends on the type of soil & drainage around the house, as well as the water table.

BTW, If your going to listen to anyone, listen to RUBYCON.

Ditto igas.

 

[iGas]

Frankly, I don't know what I'm talking about.

I have one pit with a main pump and a backup pump. About 12 inches higher than the regular pump there sometype of trigger thats connected to the back-up pump. Whether that is the alarm or the float for the backup - I don't know.

The pumps are connects to a controller and/or line float switches. And, depends on the setup you will have 2, 3, or 4 float switches.

When I lift and hold the arm of the float the pump will completely drain the pit without stuttering and when I release the arm the pump shuts off immediately.

It could be water logged float.

Shake the float/s, listen, and purchase new floats from your local plumbing shops or hardware stores.

It sound as if the floats are the same style as the old toilet floats and are interchangeable.

 

[runzwithsizorz]

First, I feel the need to address my earlier remark about single pump, dual floats. I&#8217;ve come to find out that these are available, and I apologize for not keeping up with the times. That being said, back to you OP. We now know you have a single pit dual pump system, but what is important to know is if it is a pre-fab, or simply two pumps in the same pit. If it&#8217;s a pre-fab you will need to address this situation soon, for most pre-fabs come as a single unit with a much smaller pump, a bit higher than the main, with a cross over pipe leading to a single out-flow. The smaller pump is for emergency back-up ONLY! Example of pre-fab; http://www.basementwatchdog.com/combo_sump_pump.htm
If yours is not a pre-fab, and both motors are of the same size, AND you have cleared the impeller/intake, relief hole, and pit, you needn&#8217;t do anything until the main pump dies, then replace. How will you know you ask? Simple, the water level. I believe you told us the other pumps float was a bit higher. To assist you further, I need to ask some more questions, do you have an alarm or not? Alarm example; http://www.zoellerpumps.com/ImageDisplay.aspx?ProductID=25&ImageName=72Image1
How many pipes leading out of the pit? Do you have a back-up generator? Are indeed both pumps the same size? What size are they,(horse power,make&model)? Are they both at the bottom of the pit? If not, how is the other elevated? How large is the pit? How many floats, (3 would indicate an alarm, unless you have dual floats on both pumps then it would be 5, hehehe). How many outlets/plugs are there? How many inflows, (holes in the pit) are there?
Our highly trained, professional staff of ATOT plumbers eagerly await to assist you. :whiste:

 

[lykaon78]

First, I feel the need to address my earlier remark about single pump, dual floats. I’ve come to find out that these are available, and I apologize for not keeping up with the times. That being said, back to you OP. We now know you have a single pit dual pump system, but what is important to know is if it is a pre-fab, or simply two pumps in the same pit. If it’s a pre-fab you will need to address this situation soon, for most pre-fabs come as a single unit with a much smaller pump, a bit higher than the main, with a cross over pipe leading to a single out-flow. The smaller pump is for emergency back-up ONLY! Example of pre-fab; http://www.basementwatchdog.com/combo_sump_pump.htm
If yours is not a pre-fab, and both motors are of the same size, AND you have cleared the impeller/intake, relief hole, and pit, you needn’t do anything until the main pump dies, then replace. How will you know you ask? Simple, the water level. I believe you told us the other pumps float was a bit higher. To assist you further, I need to ask some more questions, do you have an alarm or not? Alarm example; http://www.zoellerpumps.com/ImageDisplay.aspx?ProductID=25&ImageName=72Image1
How many pipes leading out of the pit? Do you have a back-up generator? Are indeed both pumps the same size? What size are they,(horse power,make&model)? Are they both at the bottom of the pit? If not, how is the other elevated? How large is the pit? How many floats, (3 would indicate an alarm, unless you have dual floats on both pumps then it would be 5, hehehe). How many outlets/plugs are there? How many inflows, (holes in the pit) are there?
Our highly trained, professional staff of ATOT plumbers eagerly await to assist you. :whiste:

I have two seperate pumps. One installed when my house was built about 5 years ago and connects to the AC in the wall. On the main pump I can't find the small hole above the pump you mentioned in an earlier post it seems to be completely missing or wasn't necessary with this model? I don't know.

The second pump was added when I finished my basement 2 years ago. It is connected to a battery backup and has a built in alarm. This one does have the small hole you mention.

Both pumps sit at the bottom of the pit. The float for the back-up pump is higher and when that float is trigger it triggers the pump and an audible alarm. The unit also has battery tester to ensure the quality of the battery.

I have three pipes going out of the pit. One for each of the pumps which have their own back flow prevention valve (I'm sure there is a proper name for these - check valve maybe). Above the check valve those two pipes join to exit the house. This intersection is above the pit but before the pipes leave the house. The third pipe was described to me as a radon vent pipe. Apparently my builder believed that radon tended to collect in the lowest part of the house and placing an open pipe in the sump pit and allow for an exit out of the house provided an extra layer of radon safety. A couple of people of told me this is was a worthless endeavor based on some dated building practices (a plumber and the guy who finished my basement).


I have now visually observed the problem and it seems to be with my float. It seems to get caught on the rod running through the float. It happens once the pump is engaged and the water drains and when the pit is beginning to refill to match the water level. While the float is naturally rising the float gets stuck causing the rod to rise unnaturally high and re-triggering the pump until the water is re-emptied and the pump deactivated by the float. This can happen several times causing the cycling effect I mentioned. 75% of the time it doesn't happen at all.

I'll see if I can find the parts to simply replace the float and rod mechanism. I tried to clean of some of the gunk on the float rod (mildew mostly) and that seem to help but not all the time.

 

[runzwithsizorz]

Sounds as though some *vibration* may have moved the pump(s) around to block the free movement of the float. As long as the switch still works, it sounds to me all you need do is finagle things around a bit so the float can make the round trip up, and down. Sometimes with lighter pumps, one could use bricks, etc to keep it from moving about do to *vibration*.
Here is an example of an alternative float replacement;

http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1273024&cp=2568443.2568452.2631240.1260883

I never explained the reasons for having a relief hole, but rather then hearing it from me, I will cut, and paste what the experts say;

The *vibrations* and inability to pump on occasions can almost always be attributed to pump air-lock. When a sump pumps turns off, the water in the discharge line between the pump and the check valve drains back into the sump. If the pipe between the pump and the check valve is solid, the air in the line will compress the next time the pump tries to empty the sump basin. This compressed air can prevent water from leaving the pump. A 3/16 inch vent hole in the side of the discharge pipe inside the sump solves this problem. Check to see if your discharge line inside the pit has this hole. If it does, make sure it is not clogged.
AND
The need for the 3/16" weep hole is to keep the pump unit from getting "air-locked". When a submersible unit is installed with a check-valve in the pipe, there has to be a way for the air to vent out of the discharge pipe (between the discharge and the bottom of the check valve). If this hole is not there, the air that is trapped under the check valve will become pressurized and in essence block the pipe. This will cause the pump to run, however little or no water will be moved through the discharge because the air will be blocking the line. It is true, that there is a small amount of water that will come out of the vent hole when the unit is pumping. We have designed our pumps with this vent hole in mind and it will not hinder performance in any way. This is true with all submersible pumps, regardless of manufacture.

I hope this answers any questions you may have, if you need anything else, please feel free to contact me.
Thanks,
Mike

Mike Yocum
Zoeller Pump Company
Technical Services
1-800-928-7867 ext# 8216
Fax-(502)774-3624
michaely@zoeller.com
http://www.zoeller.com

To bad they left out the part of where this hole should be drilled,-- and sense your asking, it's aprox. 6" inches up from where the pipe screws into the pump. If i can assist you with anything else just PM me, I am a retired general,and landscape contractor.

 

[iGas]

Sounds as though some *vibration* may have moved the pump(s) around to block the free movement of the float. As long as the switch still works, it sounds to me all you need do is finagle things around a bit so the float can make the round trip up, and down. Sometimes with lighter pumps, one could use bricks, etc to keep it from moving about do to *vibration*.
Here is an example of an alternative float replacement;

http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1273024&cp=2568443.2568452.2631240.1260883

I never explained the reasons for having a relief hole, but rather then hearing it from me, I will cut, and paste what the experts say;

The *vibrations* and inability to pump on occasions can almost always be attributed to pump air-lock. When a sump pumps turns off, the water in the discharge line between the pump and the check valve drains back into the sump. If the pipe between the pump and the check valve is solid, the air in the line will compress the next time the pump tries to empty the sump basin. This compressed air can prevent water from leaving the pump. A 3/16 inch vent hole in the side of the discharge pipe inside the sump solves this problem. Check to see if your discharge line inside the pit has this hole. If it does, make sure it is not clogged.
AND
The need for the 3/16" weep hole is to keep the pump unit from getting "air-locked". When a submersible unit is installed with a check-valve in the pipe, there has to be a way for the air to vent out of the discharge pipe (between the discharge and the bottom of the check valve). If this hole is not there, the air that is trapped under the check valve will become pressurized and in essence block the pipe. This will cause the pump to run, however little or no water will be moved through the discharge because the air will be blocking the line. It is true, that there is a small amount of water that will come out of the vent hole when the unit is pumping. We have designed our pumps with this vent hole in mind and it will not hinder performance in any way. This is true with all submersible pumps, regardless of manufacture.

I hope this answers any questions you may have, if you need anything else, please feel free to contact me.
Thanks,
Mike

Mike Yocum
Zoeller Pump Company
Technical Services
1-800-928-7867 ext# 8216
Fax-(502)774-3624
michaely@zoeller.com
http://www.zoeller.com

To bad they left out the part of where this hole should be drilled,-- and sense your asking, it's aprox. 6" inches up from where the pipe screws into the pump. If i can assist you with anything else just PM me, I am a retired general,and landscape contractor.

It is possible to get air lock if head pressure is near the theoretical maximum level of the pump output and if the check valve is also at the same height. Or at the very least the check valve is way above the water level therefore gravity "may" pull the water down out of the check valve and create an air lock, but in the same instant air lock also is the affect that keeps the water from draining back into the sump pit out of the pipe under the check valve.

Today it is common for submersible sump pump to have the check valve install at the base of the pipe therefore it is partially or fully submersed in the low/shutoff level water mark, hence the chance of having an air lock is zero.

 

[runzwithsizorz]

It is possible to get air lock if head pressure is near the theoretical maximum level of the pump output and if the check valve is also at the same height. Or at the very least the check valve is way above the water level therefore gravity "may" pull the water down out of the check valve and create an air lock, but in the same instant air lock also is the affect that keeps the water from draining back into the sump pit out of the pipe under the check valve.

Today it is common for submersible sump pump to have the check valve install at the base of the pipe therefore it is partially or fully submersed in the low/shutoff level water mark, hence the chance of having an air lock is zero.

Ummm, errrr, WHAT! Drugs are bad, okay.
If you place the check valve too close to a submersible sump pump and you have a discharge line that runs to a basement ceiling, when the pump is not on you have the weight of the water in the discharge line holding the check valve closed. (static head) As your sump pump starts to get old it will have a tough time pushing against all of that weight. By picking a location two to three feet off the top of the sump pit you will give your pump an advantage, as the pumped slug of water will hit the check valve and allow it to open easier due to the reduced weight of water above it. Rule of thumb for all professional plumbers is bellybutton high. I will ask you kindly to refrain from giving advise on subjects you know little about.