ATi X1K's current state on Vertex processing

[Zenoth]

It's something I've personally noticed, mind you, perhaps many of you actually knew it, maybe despite not having actually read about it black on white (maybe you just "heard about it").

This subject has potential for a long discussion, and quite frankly I'm not sure where to begin with.

Well, let's start somewhere shall we ?

Simply said, nVidia's GeForce 7 series' top-end product, the 7800 GTX (as I type this), has 8 Vertex Pipelines. And so do the X1K series from ATi.

So, 8 VP's on each sides.

Now, let's take a look at those articles from XBit Labs:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/radeon-x1800_17.html
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/asus-en7800gtx_22.html

The first article is the X1K review. And the last is a review on ASUS' 7800 GTX "TOP" version.

As you can see, I brought you guys on the page where the GPU's are tested in WarHammer 40,000: Dawn Of War. In both articles that is.

In the first paragraph, of the first article, we can read: Dawn of War is a classical real-time strategy, it doesn?t have any of those graphics ?crotchets? the previous game, Perimeter, boasts. However, there can still be quite many military units on the screen at the same time, which imposes pretty heavy workload on the vertex processors.

And in the single paragraph, of the second article, we can read: Warhammer 40000: Dawn of War is a geometrically heavy application. It?s easy to reckon that 100 models in a scene, each made up of 2000 polygons, give a total of 200,000 polygons ? and this wouldn?t be the most complex scene possible! The winning of this test comes naturally to NVIDIA?s solutions with their UltraShadow technology since the game makes use of stencil shadows. Note that the ASUS Extreme N7800GTX TOP is not much faster than the GeForce 7800 GTX ? less than by 10% in the hardest operational mode.

Now, look at the benchmarks themselves.

Notice the minimum frames-per-second ?

At 1024 x 768

nVidia: 45+
ATi: 25+

And here's where it gets more difficult for ATi even ...

At 1024 x 768 still, but add 4x FSAA and 16x AF

nVidia: 45+
ATi: 15+

Now, what do you think ? nVidia's performance hit was actually none, still on the minimum frames-per-second side. While ATi suffered from another 10+ f-p-s drop.

Now, what I find a bit strange is the following ...

In the first article, at 1024 x 768 (without AA nor AF), ATi's X850 XT PE
gets 10+ more frames than ATi's X1800 XT ! How come ?! Especially when you remember that the X1800 XT version tested there as most places on the web was the 512 MB one, and the X850 XT PE is 256 MB (even if the Memory amount didn't count in for any sort of performance gain nor loss, it's still a technical fact not to forget about, as I personally believe, especially when you're in face of a "professional" review via benchmarks).

NVidia has UltraShadow II, and that single feature seems (well, not seems, but actually does) help, according to the benchmarks (and not only XBit Labs'), in terms of "shadowing through Vertex processing needs", since, as confirmed, that game, WarHammer 40,000: Dawn Of War, is heavy on the Vertex workload. Thus "requires" good Vertex processing performance, or it's going to get hit in the face.

I also believe that a good game "tester" for Vertex processing power would be Rome: Total War, where literally 15,000+ troops on the battle field can duke it out in real-time (in custom games).

Why am I writing all this actually ... well, because, honestly, I am still very interested by ATi's X1800 XT, for my second up-coming system. One system with ATi GPU, and the other with nVidia GPU, as I am not a "fanboy", or so I do believe not to be one. But because I like to benchmark as well, and over-clock, and, well ... you know, tweak / play around with the hardware products I buy.

I am a little bit mixed-up about ATi's Vertex processing though, especially when you compare it with the last generation, the X800 series.

Isn't it a technical "logic" that a new generation should be better compared to the previous one, in all departments, or at least in most of them ?

People were saying that ATi might have made a mistake not to make its XT version at least with 24 Pipelines, and instead decided to stay with 16.

But personally, the more reviews I see, and the more I believe that ATi should have made more Vertex Pipelines instead, since the Pixel Pipelines' sheer number doesn't seem to "affect" ATi's X1K performance directly related to it anyway.

Any thoughts ? Facts ?

I'd appreciate.

Thanks for your time.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Ive been noticing that too. It seems the minium fps on the X1 series is lower than its 7 series counter part.

 

[TecHNooB]

Makes sense to me... therefore I have no argument

 

[Zenoth]

Indeed.

But what mixes me up even more, is, as I said, especially when you compare ATi X1800 XT 512MB to the X850 XT PE, and not actually comparing it to any of the nVidia products.

Why in the great heck does a $650.00+ "new generation" GPU provides less performance than its counter part (top end) of the last generation. It still makes my brain boil.

 

[spazo]

I would say immature drivers, AFAIK the officaly released ones doesn't support the x1800s.

 

[Munky]

I would also blame it on the drivers. Look at 1024, the x850xt pe is faster than the x1800xt in avg fps, and especially in the minimum fps. From a hardware perspective, there's no reason for the x1800 to be slower, so I'm guessing something is holding it back.

 

[Zenoth]

Hmmm, yes indeed good point.

The drivers.

I wonder if this month's Catalyst 5.11 will finally hold something worth it for the new generation.

To "offically", and finally "start it up" for good.

 

[tuteja1986]

Originally posted by: Zenoth
Hmmm, yes indeed good point.

The drivers.

I wonder if this month's Catalyst 5.11 will finally hold something worth it for the new generation.

To "offically", and finally "start it up" for good.

Yeah.. Open GL performance gap closed plus ++ gain

Meaning a X1800XT can beat a 7800GTX in DOOM 3, Quake 4 and even Riddick Escape from butcher bay.

Memory controller tweaking was a good idea by ATI

Also X1800XT will be priced $500ish in 2nd week : )

 

[Zenoth]

Oh, now that's interesting.

And, if I may ask, do you have any links providing official information about a price reduction ? Please ?

 

[tuteja1986]

http://labs.anandtech.com/alllinks.php?pfilter=3871 >> this is current price but if you look harder you can get one for below $600USD. Stock will be @ 6th nov i hear

Anyways a week later ... Nvidia would have launched 7800GTX 512MB... and if rollo is post any true and price is $500ish then ATI would have strike back.

ATI would strike back by price reduction to below $500USD

ATI has a R580 but the problem is that Nvidia aren't letting ATI enter market without healing so ATI is falling behind

Well i am working on Nov 19 @ nvidia BF2 comp where i have to build before hand 16 SLI comp , I think NF4 intel chipset ;( ... Anyways i should see a 7800GTX 512MB there : )


Anyways its not looking good for ATI and ATi really needs to strike back with a 512MB 24pipeline @ 530mhz core + 1800Mhz at $500 arround jan 2005... But i don't think this will probably happen.

ATI really should really work on a mainstream with killer performance for its price so they gain back the lost marketshare.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: tuteja1986
http://labs.anandtech.com/alllinks.php?pfilter=3871 >> this is current price but if you look harder you can get one for below $600USD. Stock will be @ 6th nov i hear

Anyways a week later ... Nvidia would have launched 7800GTX 512MB... and if rollo is post any true and price is $500ish then ATI would have strike back.

ATI would strike back by price reduction to below $500USD

ATI has a R580 but the problem is that Nvidia aren't letting ATI enter market without healing so ATI is falling behind

Well i am working on Nov 19 @ nvidia BF2 comp where i have to build before hand 16 SLI comp , I think NF4 intel chipset ;( ... Anyways i should see a 7800GTX 512MB there : )


Anyways its not looking good for ATI and ATi really needs to strike back with a 512MB 24pipeline @ 530mhz core + 1800Mhz at $500 arround jan 2005... But i don't think this will probably happen.

ATI really should really work on a mainstream with killer performance for its price so they gain back the lost marketshare.

Unless I'm mistaken, Rollo never quoted any prices for the 512 7800GTX.
As far as ATI mainstream goes, they have been doing really well with the GTO2.

 

[Sc4freak]

Originally posted by: Zenoth
I am a little bit mixed-up about ATi's Vertex processing though, especially when you compare it with the last generation, the X800 series.

Isn't it a technical "logic" that a new generation should be better compared to the previous one, in all departments, or at least in most of them ?

People were saying that ATi might have made a mistake not to make its XT version at least with 24 Pipelines, and instead decided to stay with 16.

But personally, the more reviews I see, and the more I believe that ATi should have made more Vertex Pipelines instead, since the Pixel Pipelines' sheer number doesn't seem to "affect" ATi's X1K performance directly related to it anyway.

I don't see why more vertex pipelines is necessary. ATI already hugely beefed up the vertex processing on the X1800XT. If anything, it needs more shader power. If the 7800GTX's vertex processors ran at 490mhz, the X1800XT would still have over 25% more shader power than the 7800GTX.

 

[otispunkmeyer]

actually thats a suprise to me, i always thought ATI had the edge in vertex processing since their cards are clocked sooo much higher. i also though that ATI's better vertex power was one of the main reasons they do so well in 3D marks 03 and 05

confused

 

[otispunkmeyer]

Originally posted by: tuteja1986

Originally posted by: Zenoth
Hmmm, yes indeed good point.

The drivers.

I wonder if this month's Catalyst 5.11 will finally hold something worth it for the new generation.

To "offically", and finally "start it up" for good.

Yeah.. Open GL performance gap closed plus ++ gain

Meaning a X1800XT can beat a 7800GTX in DOOM 3, Quake 4 and even Riddick Escape from butcher bay.

Memory controller tweaking was a good idea by ATI

Also X1800XT will be priced $500ish in 2nd week : )

for starters.....they havent actually done anything to the way the cards handle OpenGL. the memory controller tweak they can use can be applied to anything meaning D3D games can get a boost too

far as im concerned ATi's little boost they got goin in OpenGL titles wont last. Nvidia have been the OpenGL leaders for a very long time. anything ATI has done previous (to the programmable memory) hasnt come close to touching nvidias performance

when your that far ahead for that long.....why bother improve? i can see their driver team eliminating ATI's new performance before too long.