ATI?s Next-Gen Graphics Processors Certified by PCI-SIG. **PLEASE LOCK**

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: Creig

Originally posted by: Rollo
Yeah, we need companies to help people keep their obsolete hardware forever......

AGP had a long run-R.I.P..

Just because you made the move from AGP to PCI-E doesn't mean:

A) Other people have the same wants/needs that you do.
B) AGP's useful lifespan has ended.

The only noticeable advantage of PCI-E over AGP is SLI. If you don't plan to ever use SLI then PCI-E offers no tangible reason to upgrade.

AGP based hardware is far from "obsolete".

If the industry has moved forward and deemed AGP obsolete then it is dead. The fact that you feel it doesn't offer a tangible gain over AGP is irrelevant. Like he pointed out, we moved from PCI to AGP and are now making the transition from AGP to PCI-e (which has been going on for over a year now). May AGP R.I.P.

um, only nVidia has *probably* declared AGP dead . . . ATI hasn't,

And don't think for an instant nVidia won't bring out AGP versions of the 7800GTX or GT if they smell the money to be made or think ATI is getting any marketshare from them . . . they just want to MAXimixe their SLI-potential profits BEFORE they squeeze the rest of us AGPers.

:roll:

don't believe nVidia marketing machine.

The OEM industry is declaring AGP dead as we speak. They want to move over to PCIE ASAP.

The OEM industry barely has a choice, and neither does anyone else. There are virtually no more new chipsets that support AGP anymore. This switch over isn't just in the hands of NV and ATI as graphics chip makers, but also Intel, VIA, ULI, SiS, ATI, and NVIDIA as chipset makers. So, it is the entire industry, not just one company.

Some of us have already swtiched over, but eventually everyone will... I doubt that you will see all the top end cards in AGP this generation, and by next year I bet that only the midrange cards will have AGP variants. The year after that... Only the low end if any at all. ATI and NV will probably have some 5200/X300 type cards, just like they do now for PCI.

 

[dguy6789]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: MDE

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: CP5670

And, if the R520 is AGP, then ATI gains over 50% of the market that Nvidia has turned away.

yeah, they will be getting my money if they can release an AGP competitor to the 7800GTX before the end of the year.

Yeah, we need companies to help people keep their obsolete hardware forever......


AGP had a long run-R.I.P..

It still works and is just as fast as PCIe, what's the rush to change the entire world over?

There was "need" to move from VESA to PCI either, or PCI to AGP, yet we did.

And PCIE is better in that you can have SLI.

Thats like saying we should stop making and using 32 bit operating systems because they now have 64 bit ones.

A new technology comming out does NOT mean you should just drop support for a platform that still has more than 80% of the user base that would be buying cards at that level.

We should not stick with AGP forever, or any tech for that matter, but we should progress at a steady pace by not dropping support for ALL previous technology just because a newer tech comes out.

 

[Drayvn]

If AGP is dead, that means to you guys, the highest of the high end guys who buy the latest of everything

What about the low end, mainstream, PCI-E is not mainstream, and the ppl who are at those brackets dont upgrade often, or have the need to, So when PCI-E is not an ENTHUSIAST piece of kit then ill call it dead.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: CP5670

Yeah, we need companies to help people keep their obsolete hardware forever......


AGP had a long run-R.I.P..

How is it obsolete if PCIE doesn't offer any advantages, apart from SLI which I don't intend to use? Heck, I actually slightly prefer nvidia cards and drivers over ATI ones, but I'm not about to spend $80 or more on a new motherboard that will not be any better than my existing one. I'll probably change it when the M2 socket arrives next year. I don't understand why the nforce 4 did not include AGP support in the first place. ISA slots were still on motherboards for a long time after PCI had become standard, making the transition from one to the other very easy.

That being said though, I think appopin is right; if ATI releases AGP versions of their stuff, nvidia will probably come out their own AGP cards immediately.

AGP does NOT provide enough power through the slot for newer cards. Do you really want cards with 3/4 power connectors?

The entire industry has moved to PCI-E over the course of 18 months.

 

[Drayvn]

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: CP5670

Yeah, we need companies to help people keep their obsolete hardware forever......


AGP had a long run-R.I.P..

How is it obsolete if PCIE doesn't offer any advantages, apart from SLI which I don't intend to use? Heck, I actually slightly prefer nvidia cards and drivers over ATI ones, but I'm not about to spend $80 or more on a new motherboard that will not be any better than my existing one. I'll probably change it when the M2 socket arrives next year. I don't understand why the nforce 4 did not include AGP support in the first place. ISA slots were still on motherboards for a long time after PCI had become standard, making the transition from one to the other very easy.

That being said though, I think appopin is right; if ATI releases AGP versions of their stuff, nvidia will probably come out their own AGP cards immediately.

AGP does NOT provide enough power through the slot for newer cards. Do you really want cards with 3/4 power connectors?

The entire industry has moved to PCI-E over the course of 18 months.

And how many connecters do low end GPUs use?

 

[Drayvn]

Originally posted by: Drayvn

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: CP5670

Yeah, we need companies to help people keep their obsolete hardware forever......


AGP had a long run-R.I.P..

How is it obsolete if PCIE doesn't offer any advantages, apart from SLI which I don't intend to use? Heck, I actually slightly prefer nvidia cards and drivers over ATI ones, but I'm not about to spend $80 or more on a new motherboard that will not be any better than my existing one. I'll probably change it when the M2 socket arrives next year. I don't understand why the nforce 4 did not include AGP support in the first place. ISA slots were still on motherboards for a long time after PCI had become standard, making the transition from one to the other very easy.

That being said though, I think appopin is right; if ATI releases AGP versions of their stuff, nvidia will probably come out their own AGP cards immediately.

AGP does NOT provide enough power through the slot for newer cards. Do you really want cards with 3/4 power connectors?

The entire industry has moved to PCI-E over the course of 18 months.

oops pressed quote instead of edit me stupid

 

[CP5670]

Originally posted by: Acanthus
AGP does NOT provide enough power through the slot for newer cards. Do you really want cards with 3/4 power connectors?

The entire industry has moved to PCI-E over the course of 18 months.

So that's the advantage I would get for spending $80 for a new motherboard? Fewer power cables? I think I will pass that for now.

Also, it seems that the 7800GTX is less power hungry than the 6800U was, although I don't know how the R520 will fare in that respect.

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
PCI-Express was not chosen as a future PC standard for it's immediate advantages, but for it's open-ended architecture, which opens up avenues of development that will eventually lead to much better performance than AGP systems.

I'm sure it will have its benefits and take over in the future, maybe even with the next generation of cards. All I'm saying is that I don't want to replace my motherboard just yet for PCIE alone. Others might find it a worthwhile upgrade, which is fine, but I don't see why so many people here want everyone to do the same thing.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: nitromullet

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: Creig

Originally posted by: Rollo
Yeah, we need companies to help people keep their obsolete hardware forever......

AGP had a long run-R.I.P..

Just because you made the move from AGP to PCI-E doesn't mean:

A) Other people have the same wants/needs that you do.
B) AGP's useful lifespan has ended.

The only noticeable advantage of PCI-E over AGP is SLI. If you don't plan to ever use SLI then PCI-E offers no tangible reason to upgrade.

AGP based hardware is far from "obsolete".

If the industry has moved forward and deemed AGP obsolete then it is dead. The fact that you feel it doesn't offer a tangible gain over AGP is irrelevant. Like he pointed out, we moved from PCI to AGP and are now making the transition from AGP to PCI-e (which has been going on for over a year now). May AGP R.I.P.

um, only nVidia has *probably* declared AGP dead . . . ATI hasn't,

And don't think for an instant nVidia won't bring out AGP versions of the 7800GTX or GT if they smell the money to be made or think ATI is getting any marketshare from them . . . they just want to MAXimixe their SLI-potential profits BEFORE they squeeze the rest of us AGPers.

:roll:

don't believe nVidia marketing machine.

The OEM industry is declaring AGP dead as we speak. They want to move over to PCIE ASAP.

The OEM industry barely has a choice, and neither does anyone else. There are virtually no more new chipsets that support AGP anymore. This switch over isn't just in the hands of NV and ATI as graphics chip makers, but also Intel, VIA, ULI, SiS, ATI, and NVIDIA as chipset makers. So, it is the entire industry, not just one company.

Some of us have already swtiched over, but eventually everyone will... I doubt that you will see all the top end cards in AGP this generation, and by next year I bet that only the midrange cards will have AGP variants. The year after that... Only the low end if any at all. ATI and NV will probably have some 5200/X300 type cards, just like they do now for PCI.

Well, we DO know that r520 WILL be AGP . . . and it is 'no big deal' for nVidia to make the 7800 series in AGP - IF they "smell money" to be made there.

AGP ain't dead yet - anymore than computer gaming is dead - yet. i am NOT upgrading to PCIe and will get the best performing card in AGP, this year.

if nVidia doesn't want my money - ati can have it. i am sure there are many thousands of us who aren't going to be railroaded into PCIe until we want to upgrade.

considering the sad state of PC gaming vs. next gen console gaming, i don't plan to upgrade my computer for at least another couple of years after this FINAL agp videocard upgrade.

and the OP should consider himself "lucky" his boring topic took off . . . even it it's off the topic he chose.


:roll:

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Drayvn

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: CP5670

Yeah, we need companies to help people keep their obsolete hardware forever......


AGP had a long run-R.I.P..

How is it obsolete if PCIE doesn't offer any advantages, apart from SLI which I don't intend to use? Heck, I actually slightly prefer nvidia cards and drivers over ATI ones, but I'm not about to spend $80 or more on a new motherboard that will not be any better than my existing one. I'll probably change it when the M2 socket arrives next year. I don't understand why the nforce 4 did not include AGP support in the first place. ISA slots were still on motherboards for a long time after PCI had become standard, making the transition from one to the other very easy.

That being said though, I think appopin is right; if ATI releases AGP versions of their stuff, nvidia will probably come out their own AGP cards immediately.

AGP does NOT provide enough power through the slot for newer cards. Do you really want cards with 3/4 power connectors?

The entire industry has moved to PCI-E over the course of 18 months.

And how many connecters do low end GPUs use?

We arent talking about low end.

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: Acanthus
AGP does NOT provide enough power through the slot for newer cards. Do you really want cards with 3/4 power connectors?

How do you figure 3 or 4 power connectors? It's a video card, not a wire feed welder!

The AGP slot can deliver approximately 42 watts by itself while a PCI-E slot can deliver 75 watts. Neither one can supply the entire power requirements of a high end video card, thus the additional molex.

And as the 7800GTX actually draws less power than the 6800U and the R520 will be produced on the 90nm process instead of the 130nm that the X800XT PE did, we can reasonably expect an overall drop in power consumption there as well.

So I think it's safe to say that one molex will be plenty.

 

[gsellis]

Originally posted by: Acanthus
AGP does NOT provide enough power through the slot for newer cards. Do you really want cards with 3/4 power connectors?

Jots note to self to ask Chaotic42 how to configure 2 PSUs

Originally posted by: Creig
How do you figure 3 or 4 power connectors? It's a video card, not a wire feed welder!

The AGP slot can deliver approximately 42 watts by itself while a PCI-E slot can deliver 75 watts. Neither one can supply the entire power requirements of a high end video card, thus the additional molex.

And as the 7800GTX actually draws less power than the 6800U and the R520 will be produced on the 90nm process instead of the 130nm that the X800XT PE did, we can reasonably expect an overall drop in power consumption there as well.

So I think it's safe to say that one molex will be plenty.

Scratchs out note to self... but thinks about looking for PSUs rated in kW

 

[Drayvn]

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: Drayvn

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: CP5670

Yeah, we need companies to help people keep their obsolete hardware forever......


AGP had a long run-R.I.P..

How is it obsolete if PCIE doesn't offer any advantages, apart from SLI which I don't intend to use? Heck, I actually slightly prefer nvidia cards and drivers over ATI ones, but I'm not about to spend $80 or more on a new motherboard that will not be any better than my existing one. I'll probably change it when the M2 socket arrives next year. I don't understand why the nforce 4 did not include AGP support in the first place. ISA slots were still on motherboards for a long time after PCI had become standard, making the transition from one to the other very easy.

That being said though, I think appopin is right; if ATI releases AGP versions of their stuff, nvidia will probably come out their own AGP cards immediately.

AGP does NOT provide enough power through the slot for newer cards. Do you really want cards with 3/4 power connectors?

The entire industry has moved to PCI-E over the course of 18 months.

And how many connecters do low end GPUs use?

We arent talking about low end.

Exactly. So your statement is wrong.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Drayvn

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: Drayvn

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: CP5670

Yeah, we need companies to help people keep their obsolete hardware forever......


AGP had a long run-R.I.P..

How is it obsolete if PCIE doesn't offer any advantages, apart from SLI which I don't intend to use? Heck, I actually slightly prefer nvidia cards and drivers over ATI ones, but I'm not about to spend $80 or more on a new motherboard that will not be any better than my existing one. I'll probably change it when the M2 socket arrives next year. I don't understand why the nforce 4 did not include AGP support in the first place. ISA slots were still on motherboards for a long time after PCI had become standard, making the transition from one to the other very easy.

That being said though, I think appopin is right; if ATI releases AGP versions of their stuff, nvidia will probably come out their own AGP cards immediately.

AGP does NOT provide enough power through the slot for newer cards. Do you really want cards with 3/4 power connectors?

The entire industry has moved to PCI-E over the course of 18 months.

And how many connecters do low end GPUs use?

We arent talking about low end.

Exactly. So your statement is wrong.

Are you on crack?

High end cards, which we are talking about, are the ones not offered in AGP. The reason for this is power restrictions, if a card had 3 connectors that needed dedicated rails for power, you would need to have a 600w+ power supply just to get the rails.

Low end cards obviously do not have this limitation, because they dont use as much power.

What part of this is beyond your comprehension?

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: Acanthus
Are you on crack?

High end cards, which we are talking about, are the ones not offered in AGP. The reason for this is power restrictions, if a card had 3 connectors that needed dedicated rails for power, you would need to have a 600w+ power supply just to get the rails.

Low end cards obviously do not have this limitation, because they dont use as much power.

What part of this is beyond your comprehension?

The reason the 7800GTX isn't offered in AGP is because Nvidia feels there wouldn't be enough demand, not because of any AGP power limitations. PCI-E can't deliver enough juice either. If there is enough interest expressed, I understand Nvidia said they would produce an AGP version as well.

And why do you keep insisting that AGP cards will need more than one power connector? (3?!?) The only mainstream video card that's needed more than one was the 6800U. And I believe even that was an overkill.

Since the 7800GTX already uses less power than the 6800U and the R520 looks to follow suit I don't understand why you think a new high end AGP video card would need any more than one additional power connector.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Creig

Originally posted by: Acanthus
Are you on crack?

High end cards, which we are talking about, are the ones not offered in AGP. The reason for this is power restrictions, if a card had 3 connectors that needed dedicated rails for power, you would need to have a 600w+ power supply just to get the rails.

Low end cards obviously do not have this limitation, because they dont use as much power.

What part of this is beyond your comprehension?

The reason the 7800GTX isn't offered in AGP is because Nvidia feels there wouldn't be enough demand, not because of any AGP power limitations. PCI-E can't deliver enough juice either. If there is enough interest expressed, I understand Nvidia said they would produce an AGP version as well.

And why do you keep insisting that AGP cards will need more than one power connector? (3?!?) The only mainstream video card that's needed more than one was the 6800U. And I believe even that was an overkill.

Since the 7800GTX already uses less power than the 6800U and the R520 looks to follow suit I don't understand why you think a new high end AGP video card would need any more than one additional power connector.

The die shrink kept the cards nearly even in power draw, this will not be the case with the refresh parts.

No one knows the power/thermals on the R520, but if its a 32 pipe part, that chip will be massive (for 90nm) and likely draw a TON of power.

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: Acanthus
The die shrink kept the cards nearly even in power draw, this will not be the case with the refresh parts.

No one knows the power/thermals on the R520, but if its a 32 pipe part, that chip will be massive (for 90nm) and likely draw a TON of power.

Even if the die shrink can't reduce power consumption enough to keep pace with the increased transistor count, a single right hand molex connector can handle approximately 110 watts and a vertical one, 170 watts. Combine even the lower capacity connector with what the AGP slot can provide and you get an overall rating of 152 watts. I highly doubt the R520 will be approaching those levels.

Remember, the 7800GTX has 304 million transisitors and was built on the 110nm process while the 6800U has 220 million transistors on the 130nm process. Yet the 7800GTX still manages to draw less power than the 6800U even though it has an additional 84 million transistors.

Even if the R520 doubles that, it's going from the 130nm process of the X850XT PE all the way down to 90nm. So overall power consumption should be a wash compared to the X850XT PE which only needed one molex connector. And typically, ATI GPUs have had a lower transistor count than their Nvidia counterparts with the X850XT PE coming in at only 160 million.

 

[Lonyo]

Originally posted by: Creig

Originally posted by: Acanthus
The die shrink kept the cards nearly even in power draw, this will not be the case with the refresh parts.

No one knows the power/thermals on the R520, but if its a 32 pipe part, that chip will be massive (for 90nm) and likely draw a TON of power.

Even if the die shrink can't reduce power consumption enough to keep pace with the increased transistor count, a single right hand molex connector can handle approximately 110 watts and a vertical one, 170 watts. Combine even the lower capacity connector with what the AGP slot can provide and you get an overall rating of 152 watts. I highly doubt the R520 will be approaching those levels.

Remember, the 7800GTX has 304 million transisitors and was built on the 110nm process while the 6800U has 220 million transistors on the 130nm process. Yet the 7800GTX still manages to draw less power than the 6800U even though it has an additional 84 million transistors.

Even if the R520 doubles that, it's going from the 130nm process of the X850XT PE all the way down to 90nm. So overall power consumption should be a wash compared to the X850XT PE which only needed one molex connector. And typically, ATI GPUs have had a lower transistor count than their Nvidia counterparts with the X850XT PE coming in at only 160 million.

The move to AGP isn't going to be for power reasons because there sia power issue wherever yo ugo.
73W for the 5950Ultra, 72W for the 6800Ultra.
63W for the X800XT, 60W for the 9800XT.

Based on the assumption the 7800GTX draws equal to/less than the 6800Ultra, that means 7800GTX ~= 5950Ultra in terms of power consumption.
The 5950Ultra was an AGP card, it had power connections, the 7800GTX is a PCIe only card, and still needs power connectors, so it would work fine power wise in an AGP slot, since it requires the same level of power under load as a 5950 which worked fine in AGP.
Power consumption has nothing to do with why we're moving to PCIe, if it was, the trend would be the poopsite in terms of SLI, which doubles the graphics power requirements.

 

[Lonyo]

Originally posted by: nitromullet

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: Creig

Originally posted by: Rollo
Yeah, we need companies to help people keep their obsolete hardware forever......

AGP had a long run-R.I.P..

Just because you made the move from AGP to PCI-E doesn't mean:

A) Other people have the same wants/needs that you do.
B) AGP's useful lifespan has ended.

The only noticeable advantage of PCI-E over AGP is SLI. If you don't plan to ever use SLI then PCI-E offers no tangible reason to upgrade.

AGP based hardware is far from "obsolete".

If the industry has moved forward and deemed AGP obsolete then it is dead. The fact that you feel it doesn't offer a tangible gain over AGP is irrelevant. Like he pointed out, we moved from PCI to AGP and are now making the transition from AGP to PCI-e (which has been going on for over a year now). May AGP R.I.P.

um, only nVidia has *probably* declared AGP dead . . . ATI hasn't,

And don't think for an instant nVidia won't bring out AGP versions of the 7800GTX or GT if they smell the money to be made or think ATI is getting any marketshare from them . . . they just want to MAXimixe their SLI-potential profits BEFORE they squeeze the rest of us AGPers.

:roll:

don't believe nVidia marketing machine.

The OEM industry is declaring AGP dead as we speak. They want to move over to PCIE ASAP.

The OEM industry barely has a choice, and neither does anyone else. There are virtually no more new chipsets that support AGP anymore. This switch over isn't just in the hands of NV and ATI as graphics chip makers, but also Intel, VIA, ULI, SiS, ATI, and NVIDIA as chipset makers. So, it is the entire industry, not just one company.

The nForce 3 is just as capable as the nForce 4 chipset.
ULi have also made their new chipset which supports both AGP and PCIe. Not sure about the new ATi chipset. But the ULi chipset is brand new, although probably aimed at the lower end of the market where the transition from AGP will not be as quick.

 

[SAINTSINNER]

Any idea how much approx. will cost ATI R520 card ?

 

[Drayvn]

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: Drayvn

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: Drayvn

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: CP5670

Yeah, we need companies to help people keep their obsolete hardware forever......


AGP had a long run-R.I.P..

How is it obsolete if PCIE doesn't offer any advantages, apart from SLI which I don't intend to use? Heck, I actually slightly prefer nvidia cards and drivers over ATI ones, but I'm not about to spend $80 or more on a new motherboard that will not be any better than my existing one. I'll probably change it when the M2 socket arrives next year. I don't understand why the nforce 4 did not include AGP support in the first place. ISA slots were still on motherboards for a long time after PCI had become standard, making the transition from one to the other very easy.

That being said though, I think appopin is right; if ATI releases AGP versions of their stuff, nvidia will probably come out their own AGP cards immediately.

AGP does NOT provide enough power through the slot for newer cards. Do you really want cards with 3/4 power connectors?

The entire industry has moved to PCI-E over the course of 18 months.

And how many connecters do low end GPUs use?

We arent talking about low end.

Exactly. So your statement is wrong.

Are you on crack?

High end cards, which we are talking about, are the ones not offered in AGP. The reason for this is power restrictions, if a card had 3 connectors that needed dedicated rails for power, you would need to have a 600w+ power supply just to get the rails.

Low end cards obviously do not have this limitation, because they dont use as much power.

What part of this is beyond your comprehension?

So tell me where in these quotes was there ever talk about high end cards ONLY.

And no the thread title is not talking about power requirements of high end only cards.

You only said newer cards, doesnt mean high end.

Entire industry has moved over to PCI-E in the course of 18 Months.

So tell me how many low end and mainstream PCI-E motherboards are being sold?

Dont say im wrong, as your statement said HAS. Meaning there isnt any AGP boards out anymore when there certainly is.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Drayvn

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: Drayvn

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: Drayvn

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: CP5670

Yeah, we need companies to help people keep their obsolete hardware forever......


AGP had a long run-R.I.P..

How is it obsolete if PCIE doesn't offer any advantages, apart from SLI which I don't intend to use? Heck, I actually slightly prefer nvidia cards and drivers over ATI ones, but I'm not about to spend $80 or more on a new motherboard that will not be any better than my existing one. I'll probably change it when the M2 socket arrives next year. I don't understand why the nforce 4 did not include AGP support in the first place. ISA slots were still on motherboards for a long time after PCI had become standard, making the transition from one to the other very easy.

That being said though, I think appopin is right; if ATI releases AGP versions of their stuff, nvidia will probably come out their own AGP cards immediately.

AGP does NOT provide enough power through the slot for newer cards. Do you really want cards with 3/4 power connectors?

The entire industry has moved to PCI-E over the course of 18 months.

And how many connecters do low end GPUs use?

We arent talking about low end.

Exactly. So your statement is wrong.

Are you on crack?

High end cards, which we are talking about, are the ones not offered in AGP. The reason for this is power restrictions, if a card had 3 connectors that needed dedicated rails for power, you would need to have a 600w+ power supply just to get the rails.

Low end cards obviously do not have this limitation, because they dont use as much power.

What part of this is beyond your comprehension?

So tell me where in these quotes was there ever talk about high end cards ONLY.

And no the thread title is not talking about power requirements of high end only cards.

You only said newer cards, doesnt mean high end.

Entire industry has moved over to PCI-E in the course of 18 Months.

So tell me how many low end and mainstream PCI-E motherboards are being sold?

Dont say im wrong, as your statement said HAS. Meaning there isnt any AGP boards out anymore when there certainly is.

Youre just digging for an argument, of course $600 POS machines are going to be using AGP. Its cheap because it uses garbage parts and old techonology.

About the high end cards. Common sense bro. Low end cards are offered in AGP, high end cards are not. So unless you are bitching about low end cards not being offered in AGP, which wouldnt make any damn sense, you are the one with the piss poor reading comprehension and/or logic.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Lonyo

Originally posted by: Creig

Originally posted by: Acanthus
The die shrink kept the cards nearly even in power draw, this will not be the case with the refresh parts.

No one knows the power/thermals on the R520, but if its a 32 pipe part, that chip will be massive (for 90nm) and likely draw a TON of power.

Even if the die shrink can't reduce power consumption enough to keep pace with the increased transistor count, a single right hand molex connector can handle approximately 110 watts and a vertical one, 170 watts. Combine even the lower capacity connector with what the AGP slot can provide and you get an overall rating of 152 watts. I highly doubt the R520 will be approaching those levels.

Remember, the 7800GTX has 304 million transisitors and was built on the 110nm process while the 6800U has 220 million transistors on the 130nm process. Yet the 7800GTX still manages to draw less power than the 6800U even though it has an additional 84 million transistors.

Even if the R520 doubles that, it's going from the 130nm process of the X850XT PE all the way down to 90nm. So overall power consumption should be a wash compared to the X850XT PE which only needed one molex connector. And typically, ATI GPUs have had a lower transistor count than their Nvidia counterparts with the X850XT PE coming in at only 160 million.

The move to AGP isn't going to be for power reasons because there sia power issue wherever yo ugo.
73W for the 5950Ultra, 72W for the 6800Ultra.
63W for the X800XT, 60W for the 9800XT.

Based on the assumption the 7800GTX draws equal to/less than the 6800Ultra, that means 7800GTX ~= 5950Ultra in terms of power consumption.
The 5950Ultra was an AGP card, it had power connections, the 7800GTX is a PCIe only card, and still needs power connectors, so it would work fine power wise in an AGP slot, since it requires the same level of power under load as a 5950 which worked fine in AGP.
Power consumption has nothing to do with why we're moving to PCIe, if it was, the trend would be the poopsite in terms of SLI, which doubles the graphics power requirements.

Links to those power numbers?

 

[Drayvn]

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: Drayvn

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: Drayvn

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: Drayvn

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: CP5670

Yeah, we need companies to help people keep their obsolete hardware forever......


AGP had a long run-R.I.P..

How is it obsolete if PCIE doesn't offer any advantages, apart from SLI which I don't intend to use? Heck, I actually slightly prefer nvidia cards and drivers over ATI ones, but I'm not about to spend $80 or more on a new motherboard that will not be any better than my existing one. I'll probably change it when the M2 socket arrives next year. I don't understand why the nforce 4 did not include AGP support in the first place. ISA slots were still on motherboards for a long time after PCI had become standard, making the transition from one to the other very easy.

That being said though, I think appopin is right; if ATI releases AGP versions of their stuff, nvidia will probably come out their own AGP cards immediately.

AGP does NOT provide enough power through the slot for newer cards. Do you really want cards with 3/4 power connectors?

The entire industry has moved to PCI-E over the course of 18 months.

And how many connecters do low end GPUs use?

We arent talking about low end.

Exactly. So your statement is wrong.

Are you on crack?

High end cards, which we are talking about, are the ones not offered in AGP. The reason for this is power restrictions, if a card had 3 connectors that needed dedicated rails for power, you would need to have a 600w+ power supply just to get the rails.

Low end cards obviously do not have this limitation, because they dont use as much power.

What part of this is beyond your comprehension?

So tell me where in these quotes was there ever talk about high end cards ONLY.

And no the thread title is not talking about power requirements of high end only cards.

You only said newer cards, doesnt mean high end.

Entire industry has moved over to PCI-E in the course of 18 Months.

So tell me how many low end and mainstream PCI-E motherboards are being sold?

Dont say im wrong, as your statement said HAS. Meaning there isnt any AGP boards out anymore when there certainly is.

Youre just digging for an argument, of course $600 POS machines are going to be using AGP. Its cheap because it uses garbage parts and old techonology.

About the high end cards. Common sense bro. Low end cards are offered in AGP, high end cards are not. So unless you are bitching about low end cards not being offered in AGP, which wouldnt make any damn sense, you are the one with the piss poor reading comprehension and/or logic.

Right, if you say so.

Your so right, im such an idiot, i cannot be arsed to argue with you so ill let you win.

Because your right, there are no AGP motherboards out there after 18 months of transition. And yes you were just talking about high end cards when you said the WHOLE industry has moved over to PCI-E

So yea your right!

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Creig

Originally posted by: Acanthus
Are you on crack?

High end cards, which we are talking about, are the ones not offered in AGP. The reason for this is power restrictions, if a card had 3 connectors that needed dedicated rails for power, you would need to have a 600w+ power supply just to get the rails.

Low end cards obviously do not have this limitation, because they dont use as much power.

What part of this is beyond your comprehension?

The reason the 7800GTX isn't offered in AGP is because Nvidia feels there wouldn't be enough demand, not because of any AGP power limitations. PCI-E can't deliver enough juice either. If there is enough interest expressed, I understand Nvidia said they would produce an AGP version as well.

And why do you keep insisting that AGP cards will need more than one power connector? (3?!?) The only mainstream video card that's needed more than one was the 6800U. And I believe even that was an overkill.

Since the 7800GTX already uses less power than the 6800U and the R520 looks to follow suit I don't understand why you think a new high end AGP video card would need any more than one additional power connector.

the REAL reason nVidia only offers the top 7800s in "PCIe only" is to milk the high-end users for as much money as possible . . . and to sell a second identical card for sli . . .

AFTER they are done milking you guys, expect them to offer these same cards in AGP to milk the rest of us [and to compete with ATI's AGP offerings].

simple and brilliant

 

[munchow2]

I think this whole PCI-E only thing from Nvidia will turn out to be a farce as apoppin alluded to. It stands to reason that the 7 series is not an entirely new architecture and logically, they could make an AGP version as they did for the 6 series if they so desired. Nvidia does not make the bulk of their profit from selling 7800GTXs so until they can build up a huge demand for it, they aren't going to do it. And when they do, all those who signed petitions to persuade Nvidia to release AGP versions will praise it *hurrah*, generate publicity, improve company image, etc....