ATI Preps New Dual-Chip Flagship Graphics Card - Rumours.

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SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
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ATI's mid to low offerings are pretty poor right now. The 5830 is regarded by many as the worst card released in a while and the 5770/5750 don't perform well enough in DX11 to justify buying one over a DX10 card.

Maybe this patch job will improve a newer version of both these cards.

I guess we will find out soon enough. The holiday season is fast approaching and both companies are going to want ever single xmas penny they can get.

How are they pretty poor? I'd take a low end 5xxx over Nvidia's low end right now. What is Nvidia's low end? The GT240? Not too exciting.

The GTX480 failed to impress. The GTX470 failed to impress. The GTX465 failed to impress. The GTX460 is a very good card for the money. I would hardly say Nvidia is on a roll right now. The GTX460 is a great card, there's no denying that, but a single good part isn't going to get it done for Nvidia.
 

Wreckage

Banned
Jul 1, 2005
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How are they pretty poor? I'd take a low end 5xxx over Nvidia's low end right now. What is Nvidia's low end? The GT240? Not too exciting.
I would say you could get a better deal and better performance from a GTX2xx or HD48xx.

The GTX480 failed to impress. The GTX470 failed to impress. The GTX465 failed to impress.
It failed to impress a lot of ATI fans, no shock. But look at the benchmarks now. They are dominating ATI. Simply dominating. It's not even a contest. In newer DX11 games you have NVIDIA's 4th fastest GPU keeping up with ATI's top chip.

If that's not impressive, then you are in denial.
 

evolucion8

Platinum Member
Jun 17, 2005
2,867
3
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You may just want to check the market share numbers for last Christmas.

:hmm:

Well, you should check last market share numbers from the latest quarter, :biggrin:

ATI's mid to low offerings are pretty poor right now. The 5830 is regarded by many as the worst card released in a while and the 5770/5750 don't perform well enough in DX11 to justify buying one over a DX10 card.

Maybe this patch job will improve a newer version of both these cards.

I guess we will find out soon enough. The holiday season is fast approaching and both companies are going to want ever single xmas penny they can get.

Pretty poor? An HD 5750 matches nicely the HD 4850 and the same goes for the HD 5770 which performs virtually identical to an HD 4870. What low end cards nVidia offers currently? GT 240?, slower than HD 5750, GT 220 slower than the HD 5670, GT 215/210, slower than an HD 5550.

Those nVidia cards are hardly adequate for DX10 gaming. The rule has always been, next generation of midrange cards being as fast as previous generation high end, (HD 3870 as fast as the HD 4670, the HD 4870 being as fast as the HD 5770, or another example, 8600GTS as fast as 7900GTX, the 9800GT as fast as the 8800GTS 512, low end GTX 2x0 and 4x0 series doesn't exist at the moment (Current GT2x0 series aren't based on the GT200) nVidia also followed that rule all the time, the fact that your favorite company isn't able to launch low and midrange cards isn't nobody's else fault.

May be those cards will not perform best under DX11 but at least you have DX11 SKU's from top to bottom, something that nVidia couldn't done for more than 6 months. DX11 is an extension of DX10.1, so the performance drop is related to Tessellation and nothing else, who's gonna buy an HD 5450 for games? So is better than rebadging old chips for new cards again and again, I would be pissed off if I buy a Radeon HD 6670 and uses the same chip as the HD 2600PRO.

It failed to impress a lot of ATI fans, no shock. But look at the benchmarks now. They are dominating ATI. Simply dominating. It's not even a contest. In newer DX11 games you have NVIDIA's 4th fastest GPU keeping up with ATI's top chip.

If that's not impressive, then you are in denial.

You are the one in denial, saying that the GTX 460 is a match for the HD 5870 just because of a single game that uses Tessellation which definitively favors nVidia architecture is autism at best, if the GTX 460 1GB is so good, why it is priced below the HD 5850 and not pitted against the HD 5870 in terms of price? Perhaps because its not selling well?

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I don't see such wins like you stated... only the GTX 460 overclocked can match it and also the HD 5870 can overclock really well...
 
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Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
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I would say you could get a better deal and better performance from a GTX2xx or HD48xx.
Of those, the 4870 is the only one widely available at decent prices, and still needs MIRs to fit into being low end. Christmas deals for the GTX 260 cards were, in hindsight, outstanding, but those mean nothing right now.

It failed to impress a lot of ATI fans, no shock. But look at the benchmarks now. They are dominating ATI. Simply dominating. It's not even a contest. In newer DX11 games you have NVIDIA's 4th fastest GPU keeping up with ATI's top chip.

If that's not impressive, then you are in denial.
So far, the only impressive thing is that nVidia has gotten two variants of one card out that are worth the money. I have not seen these benchmarks you speak of, where nVidia's 4th-fastest GPU dominates anything. Licking at the heels of, and keeping up with, are not dominating. In fact, I still can't figure out which is the 4th fastest--the 465, 460, 285, or 280.

They need the GF106 and GF108 to be repeats of the GF106, and then they'll need full GF106 cards to compete w/ SI. Nvidia's getting back on their feet, but for us non-fanboys, they've still got some work to do.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
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I would say you could get a better deal and better performance from a GTX2xx or HD48xx.

And you coud get a great deal on a used 3870 or 9800GT for lower end gaming, who cares? Aren't we talking about AMD and Nvidia's current offerings? AMD has decent low end parts that are part of their current family of cards. Nvidia does not right now.

It failed to impress a lot of ATI fans, no shock. But look at the benchmarks now. They are dominating ATI. Simply dominating. It's not even a contest. In newer DX11 games you have NVIDIA's 4th fastest GPU keeping up with ATI's top chip.

I think they failed to impress many, if not most, Nvidia fans as well. The GTX4xx parts looked as rushed as the 2900XT. Back when the 5870 launched the GTX295 was still a smidgen faster, you cheerleaded that quite loudly. Now the 5970 is the clearly faster part than any card Nvidia has, but you say Nvidia is dominating. Dominating with no real mid to low end current generation parts. Dominating with a flagship card that is slower than AMD's flagship. They even lost the overall marketshare lead to AMD.

I'm not saying Nvidia isn't going to take their dominat position back, and I'm not saying Fermi won't shape up and prove to be a great part in future iterations. But they are certainly not dominating. In fact I would say most people in the know would even agree that they are not currently the technology leader.

If that's not impressive, then you are in denial.

They have a very impressive part for the money in the GTX460. The GTX460 is a lot like the Radeon 4850 of last generation. It's relatively inexpensive and performs very well. Odd though, I don't remember you pushing the 4850. :/
 
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evolucion8

Platinum Member
Jun 17, 2005
2,867
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Look, here's more!!!

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I can't still see the GTX 460 1GB matching the HD 5870, heck, it can barely match the HD 5850. The same findings that Anandtech got when he reviewed the GTX 460, I have to admit that the GTX 460 1GB at such price offers a lot, its more impressive and better than the bastard HD 5830, but you have to admit that its a midrange card, that no one is gonna use it for 30 displays and it can't compete with more expensive cards like the GTX 470 which is really the perfect match for the HD 5870.

Summary: The GTX 460 1GB meanwhile is actually able to go toe to toe with the $299 HD 5850 on a number of occasions and simply blows the HD 5830 out of the water when image quality settings are increased. The only stumbling block seems to be 2560 x 1600 but the GTX 460 really isn’t meant for the crowd that can afford 30” monitors anyways.
 

Wreckage

Banned
Jul 1, 2005
5,529
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Well you could simply read my sig, which says it all or read the xbit review.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/hardware-tesselation.html

You should not deep link other sites images. I'm pretty certain they frown on that. Also using Metro 2033 benchmarks without AA is not going to impress anyone. Here we go with AA.
http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/19242/10

SLI 460 vs Crossfire 5870
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2010/08/17/geforce_gtx_460_sli_vs_radeon_hd_5870_cfx_5760

In the end though, there is no denying that GeForce GTX 460 SLI provided faster framerates and a smoother, more consistent, gameplay experience.

There's 3 different sites.
 
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Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
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So, again, you have to cherry pick, going from a GTX 460, in a couple games, to a couple of games in a a review made primarily to test one feature, to GTX 460 SLI, and then go act like that's all one thing, applicable all-around, and makes anything new from nVidia great.

In all, they're hardly comparable with each other. Most people can't use CF or SLI, most of the rest won't, most games don't use tessellation...and ATi has had tessellation for just shy of a decade, so I seriously doubt it's going to be a problem for them--nV just happened to do it very well with the GF1xx series.

The GTX 460 is very good. I happen to like mine pretty well. But, the only way it dominates is in price competition with the 5850 and 5870, simply because AMD has has a supply-limited gravy train for it 40nm parts. Said AMD gravy train is also the only thing the GT 240 and GTS 250 have going for them. nVidia could be faced with a price war any time AMD's inventory starts to not move fast enough.
 

evolucion8

Platinum Member
Jun 17, 2005
2,867
3
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HardOCP tests are invalid, because their results can't match other results from different pages, and that's pretty obvious due to the fact that the scores aren't much different from single HD 5870, there was a thread about such tests and in conclusion, they're flawed.

http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-gtx-460-review/19n <<Here proves you wrong!!

http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-gtx-460-sli-review/9 << Proves you wrong again, it doesn't even beat the HD 5850

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<<Another DX11 tittle and yet, it can't even match the HD 5850

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Wow, the single HD 5870 pretty much matches the GTX 460 1GB SLI at 2560x1600

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-460-gf104-fermi,2684-9.html <<Another site where shows that the GTX 460 1GB can't even match the HD 5850.

Look at its summary of the results of your beloved AVP with Tessellation On:

"With anti-aliasing turned off, these cards are fairly playable at 1680x1050, less-so at 1920x1200, and too slow to play at 2560x1600&#8212;you&#8217;d really want to dial down the settings to achieve the highest resolutions in this game. Nvidia&#8217;s GeForce GTX 470 and AMD&#8217;s Radeon HD 5850 are on-par."

http://ixbtlabs.com/articles3/i3dspeed/0610/itogi-video-avp-wxp-aaa-1920-pcie.html <<HD 5870 essentially matching the GTX 480.

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<<The GTX 460 essentially matches the HD 5850

:biggrin:
 

Wreckage

Banned
Jul 1, 2005
5,529
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HardOCP tests are invalid, because their results can't match other results from different pages

Any test that proves you wrong is invalid. :D

I rest my case. I'm going back to the MNF game. You enjoy ignoring facts if that helps you get by.
 

evolucion8

Platinum Member
Jun 17, 2005
2,867
3
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MWhahaha, you are the one who fly away from threads when you are proved wrong, just like now. That's ok, go away and play Luxor or Bejeweled :biggrin: :p
 

footballrunner800

Senior member
Jan 28, 2008
503
1
81
Any test that proves you wrong is invalid. :D

I rest my case. I'm going back to the MNF game. You enjoy ignoring facts if that helps you get by.

LoL. It's obvious he's just pushing his agenda here. Learn to ignore him just like if it was another ad on top of the screen.

On topic: I am planning on buying fermi II but if this card looks just as good as the 5870 when I bought it almost a year ago I will go amd again. Never had problems with any vendor and I have a gt240 for physx so I'm not missing anything.
 

waffleironhead

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
6,938
455
136
I would say you could get a better deal and better performance from a GTX2xx or HD48xx.


It failed to impress a lot of ATI fans, no shock. But look at the benchmarks now. They are dominating ATI. Simply dominating. It's not even a contest. In newer DX11 games you have NVIDIA's 4th fastest GPU keeping up with ATI's top chip.

If that's not impressive, then you are in denial.

It failed to impress more than that, just look at the poor sales figures all around.
 

evolucion8

Platinum Member
Jun 17, 2005
2,867
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He doesn't work for nVidia, he works for AMD obviously because with such propaganda, it turns people away from nVidia.
 
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RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
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The GTX480 failed to impress. The GTX470 failed to impress. The GTX465 failed to impress. The GTX460 is a very good card for the money.

When GTX480/470/465 were launched, at their respective prices, they were horrible buys.

However, at $430 GTX480 is a better buy than 5870 at $390 imo (arguably both are poor buys at this time though near HD6000 series). GTX470 is a better buy at $260-270 than both 5850 and 5870 (unless you live in a warm climate). GTX465, which often popped up at $200-210, is also a better buy than 5830. So at the moment, imo, every card > $199 is better on NV's side. I presume a ton of people with 400-450 Watt PSUs, poorly ventilated cases, or desire for lower power consumption/noise just dismiss 470/480 altogether though. Another reason why ATI cards may be selling is too much negative perception of Fermi since launch. Even if 470 and 480 were faster than 5870 in every game, I doubt NV will come back this generation. ATI has the momentum in spades!

Let's face it, most consumers who wanted high end upgraded to 5850/5870 long time ago. So at this point, lowering prices for NV is not going to do much. They need 5770/5750 competitors 6 months ago!
 
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footballrunner800

Senior member
Jan 28, 2008
503
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You misunderstood what I was saying. I hate how he derails threads and how he's able to post freely just because some mods support the same team. So much that it got me to post instead of lurking. The problem is that if I come in here and say what I really think I will get banned.
 

evolucion8

Platinum Member
Jun 17, 2005
2,867
3
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You misunderstood what I was saying. I hate how he derails threads and how he's able to post freely just because some mods support the same team. So much that it got me to post instead of lurking. The problem is that if I come in here and say what I really think I will get banned.

Oh I see, sorry, :D I got confused for a moment.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
When GTX480/470/465 were launched, at their respective prices, they were horrible buys.

However, at $430 GTX480 is a better buy than 5870 at $390 imo (arguably both are poor buys at this time though near HD6000 series). GTX470 is a better buy at $260-270 than both 5850 and 5870 (unless you live in a warm climate). GTX465, which often popped up at $200-210, is also a better buy than 5830. So at the moment, imo, every card > $199 is better on NV's side. I presume a ton of people with 400-450 Watt PSUs, poorly ventilated cases, or desire for lower power consumption/noise just dismiss 470/480 altogether though. Another reason why ATI cards may be selling is too much negative perception of Fermi since launch. Even if 470 and 480 were faster than 5870 in every game, I doubt NV will come back this generation. ATI has the momentum in spades!

Let's face it, most consumers who wanted high end upgraded to 5850/5870 long time ago. So at this point, lowering prices for NV is not going to do much. They need 5770/5750 competitors 6 months ago!

I agree with you, right now $390 for a 5870 is just too much given the other options. But, when Fermi launched it was a let down to many. It was barely faster than the 5870 that had been available for six months. Fermi cards have a number of negatives compared to their competition. Fermi's new whiz bang wonder architecture was slower than AMD's fastest part while using more power and being louder. I guess that's domination. :) Prices have settled on Nvidia's side making them much better options now than when they launched. But, they still have those negatives and as you said, many people (some 16 million) already made a choice for a graphics card. Some will upgrade, many (like me) will happily hold on to their current card.
 

bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
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with GTX 460 taking away sales they have to make a move soon.

no they don't all they need to do is reprice 5850 when/if gtx 460 actually does some damage. it is entirely possible, even likely due to the constant delays from nvidia, that amd has sold more 5850's than they expected and thus have a demand backlog. maybe by the time SI comes out we'll see lowered prices on 5850.
 

ace55

Member
Jul 27, 2010
28
0
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Because marketshare is the end game for nvidia and ati, not benchmarks.

Of course it is. However, as consumers, we should be more concerned with the quality of the product as opposed to the popularity of the brand.
 
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bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
11,144
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If you think ATI is going to release a 6XXX series lineup and the flagship is only going to be 10% faster than a 5870, you are kidding yourself, bigtime.

There is more to it than just the increase in die size. They have had a full year now to prep these new cards, refine what they already have in 5870, and make the additions of certain aspects of what they are going to offer in N.I.

I don't see where the surprise or doubt is coming from, it's simple logic. ATI has a 6 month lead on nvidia currently in generation releases.

If they release their next series at year's end as they have gone on record with already, they will continue to maintain this lead. Nvidia has nothing coming but a refresh part that will not outdo their flagship 480.

If/when they release a dual gpu card with 460 cores, which is pretty much a certainty, we'll have the same story when 5870 dropped, the 295 was about 5-10% faster than a 5870. Likely the same story with the 6870 vs 495, or whatever they call it.

Of course, 6970 will eliminate that situation in short order, and 6870 will retake the single gpu card lead.

I called this one back at 480 release. Nvidia need to get their shit together and catch up to ATI's release cycle. Or else their sales will continue to plummet if they keep coming to table 6 months later with parts on par with ATI.

Otherwise ATI will keep putting their sales behind the eight ball for those six month terms where they are dominating gpu sales with new tech cards while nvidia is still trying to push their old stuff out the door.

calm down cowboy. nvidia has had exactly 1 poor release in the past 4 years, 1 avg, 1 good and 1 kickass release. amd has had 1 poor release, 1 relatively weak release, and 2 good ones. hardly time to pop out the champagne. if SI can produce and fermi II is still 6 mos out then maybe amd will finally start making good money and devoting some serious horsepower to drivers and devs. right now amd has better overall cards but with their superior sli drivers and better developer relations nvidia is still very competitive. if the roles were reversed you would get the mid/low range split 50/50 or so and the big $$ high end from nvidia without question.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
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You misunderstood what I was saying. I hate how he derails threads and how he's able to post freely just because some mods support the same team. So much that it got me to post instead of lurking. The problem is that if I come in here and say what I really think I will get banned.

I feel exactly the same way. It's perfectly fine for some people to post all the disinformation they want to and others get the warnings for calling them out on it. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Before anyone says, Why do you come here then? It's because 99 percent of the posters here give offer very good info and discussion. The few who are pushing agendas instead of contributing aren't enough to ruin it.
 

golem

Senior member
Oct 6, 2000
838
3
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I feel exactly the same way. It's perfectly fine for some people to post all the disinformation they want to and others get the warnings for calling them out on it. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Before anyone says, Why do you come here then? It's because 99 percent of the posters here give offer very good info and discussion. The few who are pushing agendas instead of contributing aren't enough to ruin it.

No, that's what's not what's happening. Links are posted and sometimes a spin or opinion is put on them, sometimes that opinion is WAY out there. If you feel it's disinformation, fine, post your own link or say why you think the opinion is wrong.

But what seems to be happening a lot, and more from one side than other is personal attacks and cries of fanboyism and being a shill. That along with baiting is what is getting people time offs.

Is it really likely that anyone person/mod/admin or whatever that regularly post has the influence or power to continually break the rules w/o a mod or admin stepping in? Or are some people just using this as an excuse to act out or do personal attacks in the name of protecting this board's "neutrality"?