ATI Mobility Radeon 9600-- something interesting

[ArchStudent]

I just became aware that the ATI mobility radeon line of gpus, starting with M9 (9000 series)

this is what I got from ATIs website on the Radeon mobility 9000 webpage:

Only universal platform architecture delivers OEMs the competitive edge
ATI's FLEXFIT? technology brings together the MOBILITY? family of pin-compatible mobile graphics processors and the most competitive IGP products in the industry for AMD and Intel, with one common driver for all solutions. FLEXFIT? provides the following benefits to the notebook market:

Use the same motherboard design for multiple market segments - high-end, mainstream, and value - for scalable solutions over time.

Faster time to market-OEMs can gain the competitive advantage by delivering the latest graphics technology to customers faster.

Single driver architecture - OEMs experience easier qualification and faster time to market, IT departments reduce costs of ownership, and users benefit from a common interface across product generations.

Now this "FLEXFIT" technology appears with the 9200 and 9600 radeon, and from what I gather a person could switch the GPU (which is where the memory is also stored for the radeon mobility) and bingo upgrade from a radeon 9000 to a 9600!

The PCBs even appear to be identical to what I have seen with the 9000 boards in notebooks...

This could prove very interesting indeed! Imagine breathing some life into your notebook without having to buy a new notebook.

I know there are two flavours of GPUs, one that is just the GPU, and the other that is the GPU with memory built right on.

so you could go from a ati radeon mobility 9000 with 32MB to a ATI radeon mobility 9600 with a max of 128MB....

Isn't that something to think about?

 

[AndrewKu]

Originally posted by: ArchStudent
I just became aware that the ATI mobility radeon line of gpus, starting with M9 (9000 series)

this is what I got from ATIs website on the Radeon mobility 9000 webpage:

Only universal platform architecture delivers OEMs the competitive edge
ATI's FLEXFIT? technology brings together the MOBILITY? family of pin-compatible mobile graphics processors and the most competitive IGP products in the industry for AMD and Intel, with one common driver for all solutions. FLEXFIT? provides the following benefits to the notebook market:

Use the same motherboard design for multiple market segments - high-end, mainstream, and value - for scalable solutions over time.

Faster time to market-OEMs can gain the competitive advantage by delivering the latest graphics technology to customers faster.

Single driver architecture - OEMs experience easier qualification and faster time to market, IT departments reduce costs of ownership, and users benefit from a common interface across product generations.

Now this "FLEXFIT" technology appears with the 9200 and 9600 radeon, and from what I gather a person could switch the GPU (which is where the memory is also stored for the radeon mobility) and bingo upgrade from a radeon 9000 to a 9600!

The PCBs even appear to be identical to what I have seen with the 9000 boards in notebooks...

This could prove very interesting indeed! Imagine breathing some life into your notebook without having to buy a new notebook.

I know there are two flavours of GPUs, one that is just the GPU, and the other that is the GPU with memory built right on.

so you could go from a ati radeon mobility 9000 with 32MB to a ATI radeon mobility 9600 with a max of 128MB....

Isn't that something to think about?

The scalability that ATI s refering to comes on the design side, not the component side for end-users. Basically, manufacturers don't have to make two motherboar designs if they only want to change the onboard GPU, at least within the pin-compatible design spectrum.

It really doesn't matter on the pin count, as swapping a video card on a notebook is going to be still up to mobile system vendors like IBM, Dell, HP/Compaq, etc... So you just can't simply switch, if that is what you are after.

 

[Alt]

Oh flexifit. I think thats something aimed more toward OEMs.Alot of systems still have the 9000s 9600s solderd on, and it seems like most of the ones with daughter cards have competing form factors.

The information I find interesting is here. On the second page of this pdf they are talking about the mobility radeon 9600 and say :
Frame Modulation - Brings standard 18-bit LCD panels up to 24 bit
Now I think that is very interesting.

 

[Gibson486]

I dont think all 9000's are upgradable, infact, i am sure that, even though it is FlexFit, some vendors have intergated the chip on to the board one way or another. Infact, the only vendors i know that have upgradable graphics for sure are Dell and Sagar (Alienware/voodoo....). Be nice if you could upgrade graphics on on laptops though.....

 

[Alt]

Originally posted by: Gibson486
the only vendors i know that have upgradable graphics for sure are Dell and Sagar (Alienware/voodoo....)

The Compaq / Hp x1000 / zt3000 are upgradeable also.

 

[ArchStudent]

I know that some of the chips are integrated on to the riser cards (dell laptops) and I saw a picture of the 9000 on dells website, and I saw a picture of the 9600 here ATI Mobility Radeon 9600 review

The 9600 board that they have in the pictures looks very similar to the 9000 board in the dell systems that I have seen.

Even if it can not be done, people can always dream

 

[AndrewKu]

Originally posted by: ArchStudent
I know that some of the chips are integrated on to the riser cards (dell laptops) and I saw a picture of the 9000 on dells website, and I saw a picture of the 9600 here ATI Mobility Radeon 9600 review

The 9600 board that they have in the pictures looks very similar to the 9000 board in the dell systems that I have seen.

Even if it can not be done, people can always dream

Hold on there.... You may have been a bit mislead. The riser design it self has nothing to do with Flexfit. Let me describe it in more detail. Say a manufacturer is designing a Centrino motherboard with onboard MR9000. Flexit allows the manufacturers to use the same motherboard design and drop a MR9600 in it. This saves manufacturers time from making a whole new design, and means that they can manufacturer the new product with less costs and bring it to market faster than if changing the design. In the context of riser cards, this means that they can take a riser card's technical design and use it between Flexfit mobile graphic processors.

You don't need Flexfit to create a notebook with a modular video design.

 

[ceo2b]

Essentially, these upgrade options are of no benefit for the consumer?

 

[AndrewKu]

Originally posted by: ceo2b
Essentially, these upgrade options are of no benefit for the consumer?

Flexfit isn't an upgrade option for end-users per say, rather a design one for manufacturers that translates into a cheaper product. And means products will arrive on the market faster. That is good news for everyone.

 

[catalyst29]

Originally posted by: Alt

Originally posted by: Gibson486
the only vendors i know that have upgradable graphics for sure are Dell and Sagar (Alienware/voodoo....)

The Compaq / Hp x1000 / zt3000 are upgradeable also.

How do you know about the zt3000? Isn't it brand new? (I ordered one and am in the process of cancelling it...however, if you are telling me there's a surefire way to upgrade my 64MB Mobility 9200 to a 128MB Mobility 9600, I might well change my mind...).

 

[Alt]

How do you know about the zt3000? Isn't it brand new? (I ordered one and am in the process of cancelling it...however, if you are telling me there's a surefire way to upgrade my 64MB Mobility 9200 to a 128MB Mobility 9600, I might well change my mind...).

It is generally believed that the zt3000 and the x1000 share the same internal components based on the fact that they come from the same company, share the same chassis design and have the same options.So to be perfectly honest it is a guess on my part.But if this is true the information found
here clearly shows that the x1000 has the video chipset on a daughter board.Other users of this model have upgraded in the past.

On second thought! I just went to the HP part surfer site and found the zt3000 video boards. You can view them here.As far as HP/Compaq comeing out with an upgraded board for the 9600 I dont know.They will have lots of sales of it if they do tho...

 

[Bacinator]

Originally posted by: catalyst29

Originally posted by: Alt

Originally posted by: Gibson486
the only vendors i know that have upgradable graphics for sure are Dell and Sagar (Alienware/voodoo....)

The Compaq / Hp x1000 / zt3000 are upgradeable also.

How do you know about the zt3000? Isn't it brand new? (I ordered one and am in the process of cancelling it...however, if you are telling me there's a surefire way to upgrade my 64MB Mobility 9200 to a 128MB Mobility 9600, I might well change my mind...).

same. Except I'm not cancelling mine.

 

[ArchStudent]

Hold on there.... You may have been a bit mislead. The riser design it self has nothing to do with Flexfit. Let me describe it in more detail. Say a manufacturer is designing a Centrino motherboard with onboard MR9000. Flexit allows the manufacturers to use the same motherboard design and drop a MR9600 in it. This saves manufacturers time from making a whole new design, and means that they can manufacturer the new product with less costs and bring it to market faster than if changing the design. In the context of riser cards, this means that they can take a riser card's technical design and use it between Flexfit mobile graphic processors.

You don't need Flexfit to create a notebook with a modular video design.

If manufacturers can "use the same motherboard design and drop a MR9600 in it" then might it be possible that the end user could swap the older MR9000 for a MR9600. This is if the company makes modular video cards available to the end users though.

I was thinking that for the Dell 600m that you could pull the video card out and drop in a newer MR9600 video card in, if Dell decides to offer the 600m series notebooks with an ATI 9600 radeon in the future, or if one of the other notebooks they offer will use it, and if everything is swapable.

 

[AndrewKu]

Ah, but that doesn't deal with Flexit. When you speak of dropping a MR9600, that is in the card context. ATI's Flexit is in the content of the chip itself, not the card. If a company uses Flexit to allow them to drop a MR9600 in the same design they used for a MR9000, it is very likely that the consumer can't upgrade. Upgrading still remains to be a vendor design choice. Flexit doesn't have anything to deal with that in the direct sense.

 

[ArchStudent]

Thanks for the reply Andrew

Oh well, I guess I will stick with what I have I'm not a gamer, and therefore a MR9000 with 64MB should be more than enough for me

 

[AndrewKu]

Not a gamer? MR9000 is still a great product, and if you aren't looking for gaming or doing stuff like MPEG-2 encoding (among the other intensive stuff that MR9600 can handle), I wouldn't recommend upgrading.

 

[ArchStudent]

Here is an nteresting interview with Chris Hook the PR Manager, Integrated and Mobile Products for ATI.

Chris Hook Interview

Question 3 and Question 4 and even Question 5 are very interesting regarding the ability of the upgradability of notebook video cards/chipsets. Chris has this to say:

"ATI has paved the way for upgradability by providing the industry?s first and only family of pin-compatible discrete graphics processors. M7, M7GL, M9, M9+, M9GL, M10, M10GL and M11 (shh!J) leverage broad-based pin compatibility, so manufacturers only have to design one graphics module, and then populate it with their chip of choice. By not having to redesign the graphics module every time, the OEM or ODM saves themselves considerable engineering costs, which are then passed on to the consumer, making upgradability economically viable to the consumer. And we?re the only discrete mobile graphics manufacturer to also make mobile integrated graphics chips, so a manufacturer can design a base model that uses one of our integrated solutions, then plug in an upgrade card without having to re-install drivers, so we?re the only manufacturer that can offer a truly seamless upgrade."

 

[AndrewKu]

That is one example of Flexit. That is about the modular design itself, again not about the chip. We called Chris up to confirm what Flexit is and what it does.

 

[BrotherAaron]

I thought, at first, that there would be no possibilty to upgrade my ATI Radeon card that came with my Dell laptop - but then I saw a section in the service manual labeled "Replacing the video card" that showed a diagram of the card being easily removed from the system. Does that mean I could - albeit unlikely - obtain a 9600m with the same format and replace my card?

 

[AndrewKu]

Originally posted by: BrotherAaron
I thought, at first, that there would be no possibilty to upgrade my ATI Radeon card that came with my Dell laptop - but then I saw a section in the service manual labeled "Replacing the video card" that showed a diagram of the card being easily removed from the system. Does that mean I could - albeit unlikely - obtain a 9600m with the same format and replace my card?

Yes... A modular video design is something that Dell has help make popular. It makes servicing the notebook, as well as producing it, cheaper. This is not related to Flexit though...

But remember, that would be in theory. In practice, you will have to wait till (if and when) Dell comes out with modular mr9600 cards, and more specifically for your specific model. Virtually all modular video designs are different, and this is even so within Dell model lines. So one Dell notebook line could have one design, and another Dell notebook line would have another.

 

[ArchStudent]

Originally posted by: BrotherAaron
Does that mean I could - albeit unlikely - obtain a 9600m with the same format and replace my card?

This would only be possible if Dell uses the same graphics card/module/daughter card/riser card (too many names for the video card) for several different notebook models.

Some cards are identical in their dimensions and would work in a few notebooks, while others are slightly different. I mean the ATI 9000 32MB card and 64MB card both come on the exact same graphics module, so it is easy to swap one for the other.

It is just a matter of Dell offering the ATI 9600 that uses the same video card/module design as current Dell notebooks. If it the graphics module is identical to your current one, it could be possible because the ATI mobile radeon 9xxx series have the RAM built on to the actual GPU instead of spread out over the graphics module. With this in mind the graphics module would not change in design, and thus it is likely that you could swap the graphics module.

 

[AndrewKu]

Originally posted by: ArchStudent

Originally posted by: BrotherAaron
Does that mean I could - albeit unlikely - obtain a 9600m with the same format and replace my card?

This would only be possible if Dell uses the same graphics card/module/daughter card/riser card (too many names for the video card) for several different notebook models.

Some cards are identical in their dimensions and would work in a few notebooks, while others are slightly different. I mean the ATI 9000 32MB card and 64MB card both come on the exact same graphics module, so it is easy to swap one for the other.

It is just a matter of Dell offering the ATI 9600 that uses the same video card/module design as current Dell notebooks. If it the graphics module is identical to your current one, it could be possible because the ATI mobile radeon 9xxx series have the RAM built on to the actual GPU instead of spread out over the graphics module. With this in mind the graphics module would not change in design, and thus it is likely that you could swap the graphics module.

Well, actually to date, there is no commercially available M10/M10 Pro notebook using an integrated memory package (the notebooks we showcased in our Computex 2003 coverage used discrete). The first wave will be discrete and the second will likely be with the integrated memory package. From our last chat with Dell, I recall that they use discrete mobile graphic processors in their notebooks. Anyways, you won't have to worry guys, Dell can't change the modular video interface design within a product line. The only thing that might change is the layout of the chips on the module itself. If it new video options become available for your Dell notebook in a product refresh, and it uses a modular video card design, you will be able to upgrade. This is of course assuming you are able to get a hold of the part to upgrade to.

 

[ceo2b]

I just doubt this whole user upgrade option. Why would this companies even allow this option when they can just put newer chips/cards in newer product lines and either force the customer to stick with their current model or buy another system. The payoffs of those who buy new systems in the long run is greater than the sector of customers who stick with their older models.

I still have until mid winter to decide, so I am going to shop around the next releases of laptops and if nothing of my complete liking comes up I guess I'll go with the M60.

 

[firtol88]

Dell could view it as an opportunity to get more money from the same customer every six months or so instead of every two to three years.

 

[AndrewKu]

Originally posted by: ceo2b
I just doubt this whole user upgrade option. Why would this companies even allow this option when they can just put newer chips/cards in newer product lines and either force the customer to stick with their current model or buy another system. The payoffs of those who buy new systems in the long run is greater than the sector of customers who stick with their older models.

I still have until mid winter to decide, so I am going to shop around the next releases of laptops and if nothing of my complete liking comes up I guess I'll go with the M60.

You wouldn't be the first to doubt this. Let me play the advocate for the other side, Dell and other the other system vendors are oriented about cost to benefit. If they believe the cost to provide this upgrade option (qualification, extension of support for upgrades, tech support, production costs, etc...) is cheaper (and more profitable) than waiting for the customer to buy the next upgrade option, they will do it. Additionally, if other companies are providing the upgrade option, by golly they will too because they don't want to alienate their buyers to the products of another company. Basically, it comes down to "can they make a profit off of this?" This isn't just from a financial stance, but also a relational stance where customer loyalty is maintained (and better yet increased).