ATI may have lost the battle...

[Bona Fide]

Well I think it's official. ATI has lost the '05 video card greatness battle. nVidia came out swinging with the 6xxx series, except for the 6800 Ultra, which was a power hog and a heat lamp. ATI did manage to secure the mid-range market with the X800XL and now [with help from Sapphire] the X800GTO^2.

And then came the next generation. nVidia walked all over ATI on this one. First off, the 7800GTX was released [roughly] on schedule, and parts were shipped to vendors before release to ensure that cards would be on sale the day nVidia went live with the G70 part. Not only that, but G70 blew away the 6xxx series like it was nobody's business. All this at lower power consumption and heat output. ATI...no answer. They talked and issued press releases and all that, but in reality, everyone was expecting a paper launch for the R5xx parts. And then nVidia released the G71 (7800GT), and followed the same path it had with the GTX. Parts were shipped to vendors, who then in turn had them ready for order the day G71 was unveiled. And of course, G71 didn't fail to impress either. Still no response from ATI, no real substance that is. And now, nVidia is prepping their new "7800 Ultra" card, which will be released if/when ATI decides to release its R520 core.

It may seem like I'm bashing ATI right now, and I am. ATI really had us on their side with the 9xxx series, mainly the 9700 and 9800 line. This may have been partially because nVidia's entire FX line sucked the big one by and far, but that in no way discredits ATI. But now they're starting to lose all that support because they promised and promised, and couldn't deliver.

I still see hope for ATI's graphics department, but definitely not until the next round of video-card faceoffs. But ATI is proving their prowess in another department: chipsets. The new Sapphire PURE Innovation line seems to be running all over nVidia's nForce4 chips. ATI may have struck gold with the enthusiast market with this chipset. But it will be interesting to see how many people put their 7800GTX's in a motherboard with an ATI chipset. Regardless, ATI seems primed to win the chipset battle here.

[Just my opinions, with a lot of factual basis, I hope. ]

 

[biostud]

Originally posted by: Bona Fide
And now, nVidia is prepping their new "7800 Ultra" card, which will be released if/when ATI decides to release its R520 core.

Last rumor was that the Ultra got cancelled. That might just have been a trick though.

Nothing personal, but with the r520 released tomorrow I would have waited 4-5 days to post this.

 

[Hacp]

7800GTX runs hotter than the 6800Ultra I am told. Also, last time I checked, before the 7800GTX launch, the fastest card was the x850XTPE

 

[JBT]

Originally posted by: biostud

Originally posted by: Bona Fide
And now, nVidia is prepping their new "7800 Ultra" card, which will be released if/when ATI decides to release its R520 core.

Last rumor was that the Ultra got cancelled. That might just have been a trick though.

Nothing personal, but with the r520 released tomorrow I would have waited 4-5 days to post this.

lol no kidding. Why post this the day before ATI's card is released. Esspecially since we don't know EXACTLY how this thing is going to perform.
Since it seems like Nvidia and ATI are trying to lengthen their product cycles, ATI releasing a card a few months after Nvidia certainly doesn't mean they have lost the battle.

I bet in a few months if ATI's card has a good performance advantage people will be saying OMG Im so glad ATI waited to get this card out and doing it right instead of forcing it out the door. Who knows though...

 

[Bona Fide]

Originally posted by: JBT

Originally posted by: biostud

Originally posted by: Bona Fide
And now, nVidia is prepping their new "7800 Ultra" card, which will be released if/when ATI decides to release its R520 core.

Last rumor was that the Ultra got cancelled. That might just have been a trick though.

Nothing personal, but with the r520 released tomorrow I would have waited 4-5 days to post this.

lol no kidding. Why post this the day before ATI's card is released. Esspecially since we don't know EXACTLY how this thing is going to perform.
Since it seems like Nvidia and ATI are trying to lengthen their product cycles, ATI releasing a card a few months after Nvidia certainly doesn't mean they have lost the battle.

Tell it to the 50000 threads made regarding what a disappointment ATI has been as of late. Not to mention the numerous articles by places like HardOCP about their anger at ATI's NDA and paper launches.

 

[kruull]

True true
though the Inquier posted 9100 points in 3dMark05 for Ati X1800XT - so what? Posted some graph with game benches - 80%+ for Ati against 7800GTX - but where do this stats come from... well just have tp wait for the real card to come out - hope the testers will use apropriate nvidia drivers when testing (81.26 @ best) so we also get appropriate results.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: biostud

Originally posted by: Bona Fide
And now, nVidia is prepping their new "7800 Ultra" card, which will be released if/when ATI decides to release its R520 core.

Last rumor was that the Ultra got cancelled. That might just have been a trick though.

Nothing personal, but with the r520 released tomorrow I would have waited 4-5 days to post this.

It is true that ATI is about to or currently shipping chipsets for INTEL platforms. Now I as and Intel user can vouch that AMD is king for gaming currently as I cant reach framerates anywhere near a similarly rated AMD CPU with my P4. Just the way it is. People like us will shy away from ATI Intel crossfire boards due to lack of performance. I know I would never purchase this board. Probably not even for a single PCI-e ATI Intel board. Performance is just not there right now using Intel. So saying ATI is primed to win the chipset war (if you meant against Intel and Nvidia) is pretty much off the mark on many levels.

Is ATI making chipsets for AMD Platforms? You know, I didn't even bother to check because not many folks would choose an ATI AMD platform over an NForce4 AMD platform at this point IMHO.

There are only 4 motherboards on Newegg right now for AMD ATI Xpress 200.
ECS, Jetway, and one MSI skt. 754 board. Not much of a good thing there.

 

[ZobarStyl]

True, maybe. Necessary addition to the 3000 similar threads currently going on? Not really.

 

[JBT]

Originally posted by: Bona Fide

Originally posted by: JBT

Originally posted by: biostud

Originally posted by: Bona Fide
And now, nVidia is prepping their new "7800 Ultra" card, which will be released if/when ATI decides to release its R520 core.

Last rumor was that the Ultra got cancelled. That might just have been a trick though.

Nothing personal, but with the r520 released tomorrow I would have waited 4-5 days to post this.

lol no kidding. Why post this the day before ATI's card is released. Esspecially since we don't know EXACTLY how this thing is going to perform.
Since it seems like Nvidia and ATI are trying to lengthen their product cycles, ATI releasing a card a few months after Nvidia certainly doesn't mean they have lost the battle.

Tell it to the 50000 threads made regarding what a disappointment ATI has been as of late. Not to mention the numerous articles by places like HardOCP about their anger at ATI's NDA and paper launches.

Crap like that happens every big video card release... Who remembers it though? Not many. Only a few fanboys here and there. Everyone else moves on and gets the best card they can get for the amount the plan on spending.

 

[kruull]

Well if I think again - the Japs will probably come out with articles and comparison of the 2 cards just tommorow as soon as they get their hands on the cards (as it has been with the 7800GTX) I am sooo looking forward to it - at least i ll have something to at my work

 

[biostud]

Originally posted by: Bona Fide

Tell it to the 50000 threads made regarding what a disappointment ATI has been as of late. Not to mention the numerous articles by places like HardOCP about their anger at ATI's NDA and paper launches.

So you decided to make thread no 50001?

 

[Bona Fide]

Originally posted by: biostud

Originally posted by: Bona Fide

Tell it to the 50000 threads made regarding what a disappointment ATI has been as of late. Not to mention the numerous articles by places like HardOCP about their anger at ATI's NDA and paper launches.

So you decided to make thread no 50001?

Haha by the time it got posted, it was probably 50021

 

[kruull]

more like 100001

 

[Munky]

I disagree with the OP. Ati may have delayed their cards longer than any of would like, but on the other hand it's supposedly a new architecture, whereas the g70 was just an improved nv40, and it has a bunch of nice features that the g70 is missing, (HDR + AA, real AF, h264... I'm not gonna list em all). If the card lives up to the rumors and leaked specs, and is available for sale, I'll definitely buy the x1800 over the 7800, and I wont regret waiting it out. Also, I wont be surprised if a bunch of ppl sold their 7800's and pick up one of the x1800's.

As for the 7800 ultra, I cant see it being anything more than a higher clocked 512mb 7800gtx, which may or may not equal the x1800xt in performance, but it'll definitely be lacking in features. If this new x1800 architecture proves to be competitive with 16 "pipes" against a 24 pipe gtx, then Nv will have to serioulsy reconsider their gpu architecture if they expect to be able to compete with the r580 next refresh cycle, when both sides might be using 32 pipes.

Also, there's the r600 that I expect will be available in fall 2006, or maybe winter 2007, which is probably a tweaked and enhanced version of the r500 xbox360 gpu. If that's true, this will put Ati at a nice head start for the next gen, using unified shaders, and Nv will have to work hard to catch up.

 

[n7]

ATi didn't lose the 6xxx series vs. X8xx series battle.

Just you nVidiots seem to think they did.

Yes, intially, the 6800GT was the card to buy.

However, the X800XT > 6800 Ultra (aside from a few games like Doom 3), & when the X850XT (PE) came out, the lead for top spot grew larger.
Then the X800XL came along, which has been a better buy than anything nVidia has since it came out.
The 6800GT was the only card ever worth buying from the last gen (& only till X800XL came out), unless you were upgrading to the 6600GT, which isn't really in the same category.

 

[Bona Fide]

Originally posted by: n7
ATi didn't lose the 6xxx series vs. X8xx series battle.

Just you nVidiots seem to think they did.

Yes, intially, the 6800GT was the card to buy.

However, the X800XT > 6800 Ultra (aside from a few games like Doom 3), & when the X850XT (PE) came out, the lead for top spot grew larger.
Then the X800XL came along, which has been a better buy than anything nVidia has since it came out.
The 6800GT was the only card ever worth buying from the last gen (& only till X800XL came out), unless you were upgrading to the 6600GT, which isn't really in the same category.

I did state in my post that ATI took the crown for the mid-range category, unless you believe the X800XL is a high-end card. I classified "high-end" as being at least 16 pipelines. The only ATI cards that belonged there were the X850 line. And the X850XT Platinum, simply a higher-clocked X850XT, did keep pace well with the 6800 Ultra, even beating it in certain scenarios (Far Cry). But I, along with many people [nVidiots notwithstanding], think nVidia won the last one.

And please, don't write me off as an nVidia fanboy. The 7800GT is the first nVidia card I've ever owned. My first ever card was an ATI 8500, then an ATI 9600. Now I've moved across to nVidia. I don't "do" the product loyalty stuff. That's also the reason why I'm AMD now. My first few processors were Intel (P2 400, P4 1600), but AMD has taken a considerable lead now, and I simply go with the better product.

 

[ddogg]

Originally posted by: n7
ATi didn't lose the 6xxx series vs. X8xx series battle.

Just you nVidiots seem to think they did.

Yes, intially, the 6800GT was the card to buy.

However, the X800XT > 6800 Ultra (aside from a few games like Doom 3), & when the X850XT (PE) came out, the lead for top spot grew larger.
Then the X800XL came along, which has been a better buy than anything nVidia has since it came out.
The 6800GT was the only card ever worth buying from the last gen (& only till X800XL came out), unless you were upgrading to the 6600GT, which isn't really in the same category.

no doubt the XT was a little better than the Ultra but it was available only 10months later. their next best card was the X800Pro which was easily beaten by the 6800GT. the ultra was also a rare card but it could be found! the X850XTPE was another paper launch that took months before we could see cards on shelves.
nvidia also introduced SLI that removed all performance barriers....!!! i definetely see that as a lost round.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: munky
I disagree with the OP. Ati may have delayed their cards longer than any of would like, but on the other hand it's supposedly a new architecture, whereas the g70 was just an improved nv40, and it has a bunch of nice features that the g70 is missing, (HDR + AA, real AF, h264... I'm not gonna list em all). If the card lives up to the rumors and leaked specs, and is available for sale, I'll definitely buy the x1800 over the 7800, and I wont regret waiting it out. Also, I wont be surprised if a bunch of ppl sold their 7800's and pick up one of the x1800's.

As for the 7800 ultra, I cant see it being anything more than a higher clocked 512mb 7800gtx, which may or may not equal the x1800xt in performance, but it'll definitely be lacking in features. If this new x1800 architecture proves to be competitive with 16 "pipes" against a 24 pipe gtx, then Nv will have to serioulsy reconsider their gpu architecture if they expect to be able to compete with the r580 next refresh cycle, when both sides might be using 32 pipes.

Also, there's the r600 that I expect will be available in fall 2006, or maybe winter 2007, which is probably a tweaked and enhanced version of the r500 xbox360 gpu. If that's true, this will put Ati at a nice head start for the next gen, using unified shaders, and Nv will have to work hard to catch up.

But you know that the G80 is a unified architecture and ready to go don't you? And I'm surprised to hear you chant about features when you were an advocate for the lack of features the R4xx architecture had compared to the 6 series from nvidia. Do features suddenly matter to you? Why the change of heart?

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: n7
ATi didn't lose the 6xxx series vs. X8xx series battle.

Just you nVidiots seem to think they did.

Yes, intially, the 6800GT was the card to buy.

However, the X800XT > 6800 Ultra (aside from a few games like Doom 3), & when the X850XT (PE) came out, the lead for top spot grew larger.
Then the X800XL came along, which has been a better buy than anything nVidia has since it came out.
The 6800GT was the only card ever worth buying from the last gen (& only till X800XL came out), unless you were upgrading to the 6600GT, which isn't really in the same category.

You mean all the nvidiots listed in the Steam Survey?

 

[malG]

Relax folks, the gang bang only starts tomorrow...Oct 5 remember? I'm all lubed-up and waiting for Miss ATI

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: munky
I disagree with the OP. Ati may have delayed their cards longer than any of would like, but on the other hand it's supposedly a new architecture, whereas the g70 was just an improved nv40, and it has a bunch of nice features that the g70 is missing, (HDR + AA, real AF, h264... I'm not gonna list em all). If the card lives up to the rumors and leaked specs, and is available for sale, I'll definitely buy the x1800 over the 7800, and I wont regret waiting it out. Also, I wont be surprised if a bunch of ppl sold their 7800's and pick up one of the x1800's.

As for the 7800 ultra, I cant see it being anything more than a higher clocked 512mb 7800gtx, which may or may not equal the x1800xt in performance, but it'll definitely be lacking in features. If this new x1800 architecture proves to be competitive with 16 "pipes" against a 24 pipe gtx, then Nv will have to serioulsy reconsider their gpu architecture if they expect to be able to compete with the r580 next refresh cycle, when both sides might be using 32 pipes.

Also, there's the r600 that I expect will be available in fall 2006, or maybe winter 2007, which is probably a tweaked and enhanced version of the r500 xbox360 gpu. If that's true, this will put Ati at a nice head start for the next gen, using unified shaders, and Nv will have to work hard to catch up.

But you know that the G80 is a unified architecture and ready to go don't you? And I'm surprised to hear you chant about features when you were an advocate for the lack of features the R4xx architecture had compared to the 6 series from nvidia. Do features suddenly matter to you? Why the change of heart?

If by "know" you mean I've heard rumors about the g80, then yah, I know. By that account I also "know" that the r580 will have 3x the shader power of the r520.

As far a features go, any extra features that the nv40 had over the r480 proved to be of limited benefit, because most of the time it killed performance (HDR, no AA) or few games used it. And certainly if the x1800 comes to a slideshow when you turn on real AF, I wont be pimping it as a killer "feature" that you simply must have.

 

[kruull]

As to the 6800GT and 6600GT - it took a while Ati to produce some cards to get better than those 2 - everyone should admit that. The main problem of Ati is that everything takes them a while to get ready... now if you want to have the best graphics in your RIG u have to sell your 7800 and go get the 1800 and in a half a your ur selling it again because of 8800 or r580... WHERE IS THIS WORLD HEADING TO? Ill just stick to my 7800GTX (buying it for 250$) and waits for what the future micht bring.... as everyone else will i supose

 

[M0RPH]

They haven't lost the battle... they've been late in arriving to the battle. Unlike Nvidia who only needed to do a refresh part, ATI is doing a competely revamped chip. The feature set of these new cards is remarkable and IMO, was worth the wait. Nvidia will not be able to match the features and IQ of these cards until they come out with their real next gen chip (ie. not another refresh). Who knows when that will be. That's going to give ATI quite some time to reap the benefits of their R5XX superiority. THese cards are going to fly off the shelves, as long as the shelves remain filled.

 

[crazydingo]

Yes, ATI has already lost the battle, ATI is doomed, ATI is teh sux, what else ? :laugh:

 

[kruull]

Originally posted by: M0RPH
They haven't lost the battle... they've been late in arriving to the battle. Unlike Nvidia who only needed to do a refresh part, ATI is doing a competely revamped chip. The feature set of these new cards is remarkable and IMO, was worth the wait. Nvidia will not be able to match the features and IQ of these cards until they come out with their real next gen chip (ie. not another refresh). Who knows when that will be. That's going to give ATI quite some time to reap the benefits of their R5XX superiority. THese cards are going to fly off the shelves, as long as the shelves remain filled.

Unless they have enough of them that is... ;0