Ati 8.12's - Methinks we need a review of the AVIVO Transcoder

[Modular]

I'd be really happy to see a site like AT come out with a review of the "updated" transcoder. At this point the question of whether or not it's working seems to be shrouded in mystery. From what I've read, it seems that some people are getting different installer packages depending on what card they have (different brands even) suggesting that there may be an issue with the installer detecting the proper hardware. Over at guru3d there's a thread where one guy, using the Custom install option, claims to have the option to select or deselect the AVIVO package built right into his download of the 8.12's. I, as well as many others have no such option, and were forced to download the AVIVO package separately.

Even when people do get the thing installed, they are mentioning that it seems to be using high CPU and very low (generally 0%) GPU to do the actual work (myself included). IIRC that's exactly the same issue that the original "hardware based" decoder did that Ati released.

I guess I'm just looking for the facts. I'd like to know the proper way to install the AVIVO package, and some evidence that the thing is working. It seems that the best way to get this info out there would be for AT to do a good, thorough review of the thing and put it all out there in black and white.

 

[Lonyo]

I just downloaded it (I dled the full 8.12 package and had to dl AVIVO separately). Windows XP SP3/32-bit HD4850.
Tried it for a quick test and it was using 100% CPU and 0% GPU as well.

It would be nice to see it working, a guide of some sort would be nice.
It's also not very well featured in my opinion, which is unfortunate, but it's a nice-ish first step.

 

[SSChevy2001]

There is a review, though it's still need plenty of work.

Battle of GPU Transcoders: ATI Avivo Converter and NVIDIA Elemental Badaboom
http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=647

 

[shangshang]

I don't do a lot of video stuff other then occasionally ripping a DVD. But I've always wonder what Avivo does because I see the word "Avivo" every time I go to download the latest Catalyst. Avivo has been around for way too long for ATI to not make use of it massively. I wonder how much R&D money is really put into Avivo development? Probably not much judging from the apathy from the user base.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: shangshang
I don't do a lot of video stuff other then occasionally ripping a DVD. But I've always wonder what Avivo does because I see the word "Avivo" every time I go to download the latest Catalyst. Avivo has been around for way too long for ATI to not make use of it massively. I wonder how much R&D money is really put into Avivo development? Probably not much judging from the apathy from the user base.

AVIVO like Badaboom just transcodes video which is not as good as re-encoding video (which takes a lot longer but has much better quality).

 

[vj8usa]

Originally posted by: shangshang
I don't do a lot of video stuff other then occasionally ripping a DVD. But I've always wonder what Avivo does because I see the word "Avivo" every time I go to download the latest Catalyst. Avivo has been around for way too long for ATI to not make use of it massively. I wonder how much R&D money is really put into Avivo development? Probably not much judging from the apathy from the user base.

The term AVIVO's been around for a while. Back in the day, it just meant the hardware accelerated video decoding/post processing features that were being used to compete with PureVideo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVIVO

 

[shangshang]

So transcoding is not the same as re-encoding? Well that's about as clear as a flickering candle in a Guiness bottle to me! But I take your words for it.

Does anyone use Avivo or Purevideo at all? Seems to me that these features from ATI and NV never took off to begin with!

 

[Modular]

I use Purevideo on my HTPC and have the AVIVO transcoder, but AVIVO uses 100% CPU and 0 - 2% GPU...hence my issue with it. Purevideo seems to have a decent impact on image quality for my HTPC. Not only that, but offloading the video decoding work from my CPU (which is pretty underpowered in my HTPC) to the GPU makes lots of sense and really helps keep the picture clear and crisp.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: shangshang
So transcoding is not the same as re-encoding? Well that's about as clear as a flickering candle in a Guiness bottle to me! But I take your words for it.

No they're different. I'm not sure of the exact technical details but re-encoding analyzes the video first then re-encodes it to whatever codec you want while transcoding is sort of "on the fly" which is why it's much faster but the drawback is the lower quality. For playing on your portable video player or whatever transcoding is fine but if you want to say back up a DVD movie you'd want the highest quality so re-encoding is much better.

I tried AVIVO back when I had a 3870 briefly because I thought it did encoding but the quality of the videos weren't great and then I found out they were just transcoding.

EDIT: By re-encoding I meant "converting".

 

[neothe0ne]

To have a review, you need a working product.

At this point in time, Catalyst 8.12 is officially worse off than the Core i7 motherboard launch BIOS situation, not least because ATI hasn't responded at all to widespread problems yet (see the ATI Catalyst forums). I'm still getting audio only and no video... thanks ATI, but I can encode MP3 to AAC just fine, I want XviD to H.264.

Also,

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: shangshang
So transcoding is not the same as re-encoding? Well that's about as clear as a flickering candle in a Guiness bottle to me! But I take your words for it.

No they're different. I'm not sure of the exact technical details but re-encoding analyzes the video first then re-encodes it to whatever codec you want while transcoding is sort of "on the fly" which is why it's much faster but the drawback is the lower quality.

Uh that's not correct. Transcoding = taking a lossy source and encoding it to a new file using a lossy codec, losing quality. "Re-encode" as a term does not have "analyze first then encode" in its definition; in fact, in all practical applications re-encode is the exact same thing as transcode. They lose quality because it's a lossy source becoming more lossy, not because of "on-the-fly" or not (since they both are).

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: neothe0ne
Transcoding = taking a lossy source and encoding it to a new file using a lossy codec, losing quality. "Re-encode" as a term does not have "analyze first then encode" in its definition; in fact, in all practical applications re-encode is the exact same thing as transcode. They lose quality because it's a lossy source becoming more lossy, not because of "on-the-fly" or not (since they both are).

Sorry I maybe should have used "coverting" instead. Depending on the compression you'll lose more quality but I've found converting gave better quality with fewer artifacts than transcoding did when I compared what Virtualdub (converting) and AVIVO converter (transcoding) did. Even using high quality settings for the transcoder gave very noticeable artifacts...whether that was a result of the program itself being crappy I don't know.

The "analyzing" I was talking about was only for encoding I believe so my mistake.

 

[Dadofamunky]

I've had success converting DVDs and BluRays to ISO files for backup (not with Avivo obviously), and the quality is excellent. I was HOPING that Avivo would actually be USEFUL for something, but if it eats all my CPU cycles when it's billed as using the GPU to offload that work, why then the product is simply broken and not worth the electrons to download. Then again, maybe their statements all over the place saying that the Avivo package is supported only by the X1000 series is serious (like the X1950 and so on). If so, that's just stupid. Why lump it into the Catalyst 8.12 page when they know damn well a lot of HD4xxx users are champing at the bit to leverage their GPU power like NVidia does with CUDA?

So if only a older generation of GPUs supports this feature, then they should make that even clearer than they already do. My guess is that's why everyone's running into the 100% CPU/0% GPU issue. The Avivo software simply won't work on your hot new monster 4870x2 card. Sorta sucks if you ask me.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: Dadofamunky
I've had success converting DVDs and BluRays to ISO files for backup (not with Avivo obviously), and the quality is excellent.

Making a backup of a DVD is different though as it is "raw" (I think it's still compressed by the DVD maker) data from the source so you'll get the exact same quality as if you were playing from the DVD.

AVIVO is be used for video playback as well as transcoding. It's the playback that people are experiencing high CPU usage correct?

 

[evolucion8]

Jum, I encoded some MPEG1 and MPEG 4 videos to PSP profiles and High Quality DIVX and my GPU usage hovered between 22% and 40% and took less than 5 minutes, but my CPU usage was very high on the 4th CPU core, to put it simple, it will simply transcode faster, but the CPU usage will be pretty much the same, :disgust:

 

[jacc1234]

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: shangshang
So transcoding is not the same as re-encoding? Well that's about as clear as a flickering candle in a Guiness bottle to me! But I take your words for it.

No they're different. I'm not sure of the exact technical details but re-encoding analyzes the video first then re-encodes it to whatever codec you want while transcoding is sort of "on the fly" which is why it's much faster but the drawback is the lower quality. For playing on your portable video player or whatever transcoding is fine but if you want to say back up a DVD movie you'd want the highest quality so re-encoding is much better.

I tried AVIVO back when I had a 3870 briefly because I thought it did encoding but the quality of the videos weren't great and then I found out they were just transcoding.

EDIT: By re-encoding I meant "converting".

Actually that is not entirely correct. The terms are confusing and many people use them differently. The software you use can set if you will be analyzing and then converting vs doing "on the fly" conversion. This is the number of "passes" used. Normally people use 1 to 3 passes depending on content. A 1 pass transcode will be quick but not as good as a 2 pass version.

If you do a 1 pass conversions from DVD to XVID or x264 that is a transcode because you are converting the video from one digital format to another. If you do a 2 pass conversion of the same formats that is still a transcode. In the strictest sense an encode would be the conversion from the original lossless source to the necessary format for distribution. After that original step everything else is a transcode. Even if you start with a HD source like a blueray and want to rip it you will be transcoding from the format used on the disk (AVC,VC-1) to the format you want (x264,xvid).

I hope this make sense and helps with some of the confusion. You can use any term you like, I personally will say im encoding a movie when im ripping a dvd to x264, but as long as I don't consider one term better then the other I think both are fine. Once people start saying an encode is better then a transcode then you need to make sure that you know exactly what they are referring to.

Jacc1234

 

[shangshang]

Originally posted by: Dadofamunky
I've had success converting DVDs and BluRays to ISO files for backup (not with Avivo obviously), and the quality is excellent. I was HOPING that Avivo would actually be USEFUL for something, but if it eats all my CPU cycles when it's billed as using the GPU to offload that work, why then the product is simply broken and not worth the electrons to download. Then again, maybe their statements all over the place saying that the Avivo package is supported only by the X1000 series is serious (like the X1950 and so on). If so, that's just stupid. Why lump it into the Catalyst 8.12 page when they know damn well a lot of HD4xxx users are champing at the bit to leverage their GPU power like NVidia does with CUDA?

So if only a older generation of GPUs supports this feature, then they should make that even clearer than they already do. My guess is that's why everyone's running into the 100% CPU/0% GPU issue. The Avivo software simply won't work on your hot new monster 4870x2 card. Sorta sucks if you ask me.

This is exactly what I've been asking myself almost every time I visit the Catalyst download page!! I see the phrase "works only on X1000 series" card and i wonder to myself exactly like you just did. Why the hell is ATI putting a product that works mainly older hardware on a new hardware page?? Better question yet, with AMD stock at all time low and money hard to come by, why is AMD even investing money in software for an older product when Joe Schmoe with his spanking new 4870x2 is thinking of ways to better utilize his 2 GPUs. Looks like Avivo is a halfassed attempt at ATI and probably used more as a marketing tools than a serious feature! After years of Avivo being around, there is still no rampant adoption from the user base.