ATF change long overdue - change it or not ?

[bamx2]

I just received a clean 1994 Camry with 121 K as a gift . The transmission works fine . However the fluid is very dark (almost black) and there is no service history of it ever being changed . One mechanic said that if I change it at this point , it may kill the transmission . Anyone familiar with this ? - Thanks

 

[BlackTigers]

doh! terms mixed uip!

 

[Aimster]

I wouldn't change it...

MY BMW manual says lifetime ATF. No change required. There have been big debates on this. Changing it can actually hurt it after all this time, etc. I just left it alone.

Check your manual. If it says change it then change it.

 

[herm0016]

black means lots of clutch material in the fluid. does it smell burnt? or is it still sweet smelling? i would change the fluid and the filter, and not touch anything else.

never "flush" a transmission. this is what breaks them. it dislodges all the built up stuff, then it gets stuck in the valve body and kills the trans.

 

[BW86]

I wouldn't flush it but I've drained and refilled a few of my families cars with no negative effects.

 

[BlackTigers]

doh!

 

[SoulAssassin]

I would take it somewhere to have them drop the pan, drain/fill and change the filter if you have one.

 

[fstime]

Originally posted by: Aimster
I wouldn't change it...

MY BMW manual says lifetime ATF. No change required. There have been big debates on this. Changing it can actually hurt it after all this time, etc. I just left it alone.

Check your manual. If it says change it then change it.

The whole lifetime transmission oil thing was a huge joke, even Mercedes realized this and changed their policy to now have ATF changes in the maintenance schedule.

Simple drain and fill is the way to go here, drop the oil pan, change the filter and gasket.

Repeat the drain and fill after 3,000 miles, then repeat again after another 3,000 miles.

 

[Vette73]

Yep drain and refill. There should be a drain plug on the trans pan. Just open that and refill with some good fluid.

 

[StageLeft]

I am thinking of this on my 04 MPV (never changed, has 70k miles). The instructions I see on a forum say to drain it, run the motor for a few seconds to help pump more out, then fill up and I think do this a few times. Apparently it's ok to run a few seconds while it's emptying itself into a bucket. Does this sound nuts or elite?

[l=Link with pics]http://www.mpvclub.com/diy.php?id=118[/l.

 

[BUTCH1]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Yep drain and refill. There should be a drain plug on the trans pan. Just open that and refill with some good fluid.

Is this typical for Toyota?, never seen it on a domestic although there are kits you can buy so you can install a drain plug once you've dropped the pan..

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: BUTCH1

Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Yep drain and refill. There should be a drain plug on the trans pan. Just open that and refill with some good fluid.

Is this typical for Toyota?, never seen it on a domestic although there are kits you can buy so you can install a drain plug once you've dropped the pan..

Most toyotas and hondas seem to have this. I hate that most american cars/trucks don't. But it also means that american cars/trucks will get their filter replaced more then Asian cars/trucks. But now with flush machines most shops don;t want to remove the pan as it takes more time and cuts into their profit.

So it has its pros and cons.

 

[chucky2]

Change the filter, add Auto-RX directly to pan before putting back on (make sure to heat it in warm water first), top up ATF (use correct type), drive 1000 miles (preferably trips where your ride gets hot), have the trans T-Tec'd. Done. Safe.

Chuck

P.S. Not affiliated with Auto-RX in any way...go to BITOG Oil Adds Forum to read up on it.

EDIT: Corrected typo's.

 

[BUTCH1]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: BUTCH1

Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Yep drain and refill. There should be a drain plug on the trans pan. Just open that and refill with some good fluid.

Is this typical for Toyota?, never seen it on a domestic although there are kits you can buy so you can install a drain plug once you've dropped the pan..

Most toyotas and hondas seem to have this. I hate that most american cars/trucks don't. But it also means that american cars/trucks will get their filter replaced more then Asian cars/trucks. But now with flush machines most shops don;t want to remove the pan as it takes more time and cuts into their profit.

So it has its pros and cons.

I'd be happy with a friggin dipstick, GM has done away with these too, my '05 Chevy does not have one. Owner's Manuel says " if you notice fluid leaking, take it to a dealer"..nice huh? I used to snake a clear piece of tubing down the dipstick shaft and slow siphon out 4 quarts out of my Ford, I called it a "cheater change" had the dealer drop the pan and replace the filter@60K intervals, tranny lasted 180K without a hitch..

 

[LTC8K6]

My 97 Z24 did ot have a tranny dipstick and neither does my brother's 08 Liberty.

The Liberty still has the tube, but it's just blocked off...

 

[SoulAssassin]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
My 97 Z24 did ot have a tranny dipstick and neither does my brother's 08 Liberty.

The Liberty still has the tube, but it's just blocked off...

That's very odd for a Jeep since they are so easy to work on...then again a Liberty really isn't a Jeep.

 

[mooseracing]

Originally posted by: Aimster
I wouldn't change it...

MY BMW manual says lifetime ATF. No change required. There have been big debates on this. Changing it can actually hurt it after all this time, etc. I just left it alone.

Check your manual. If it says change it then change it.

With the proper maintence there is no way a tranny that hasn't had its lube changed, live longer than one that has.

30-40k is too many miles when you think that the clutches are slipping 90% of the time in an AT.



To OP, it usually a flush that causes a problem because of the old materials from the clutches can break lose and clog things.

If it was mine I couldn't drive it knowing it was like that. I would change the fluid 2 or 3 times within 10k.

 

[radioouman]

Originally posted by: BUTCH1

Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Yep drain and refill. There should be a drain plug on the trans pan. Just open that and refill with some good fluid.

Is this typical for Toyota?, never seen it on a domestic although there are kits you can buy so you can install a drain plug once you've dropped the pan..

Both my Saturn S-series cars and my Saturn L100 have drain plugs for the tranmissions.

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: radioouman

Originally posted by: BUTCH1

Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Yep drain and refill. There should be a drain plug on the trans pan. Just open that and refill with some good fluid.

Is this typical for Toyota?, never seen it on a domestic although there are kits you can buy so you can install a drain plug once you've dropped the pan..

Both my Saturn S-series cars and my Saturn L100 have drain plugs for the tranmissions.

The Saturn S tried to be different and they also had the external trans filter.

 

[Zorba]

Both my Subarus have drain plugs and external filters.

If you aren't going to do it yourself, take it to a good tranny shop or a dealer. Most mechanics or quick lube places will do a flush that has a high likelihood of kill your tranny. A "good" mechanic killed my old Mercury doing a flush on it.

 

[chucky2]

Just make sure, as in, ask the Service Manager what fluid they will use in your car, and have him/her answer you (not the other way around), on what type of fluid will be going in. Then ask him/her if that is the spec of the actual fluid, and no additives will be added to the tranny other than the actual trans fluid.

You don't need any "flush" additives. You don't need any post-flush additives. You just want pure - correct type - tranny fluid put back in.

A lot of these shops put an add in there before/during the flush that "cleans" out the transmission before/during flushing. Anything so harsh as to be able to clean in that short period of time is not good for the internal seals in the transmission.

The correct type tranny fluid has all the Friction Modifier additives, among other things, it needs in it to make your trans function properly. Aftermarket adds are of dubious need, and shouldn't be used. You also want to be careful of shops using a fluid that has one rating, and then putting a bottle of add in that will "bring up" / "correct" the fluid they used to be the correct one. This is really common with shops/chains that still have large quantities of stock that is old/outdated. They get a vehicle that say needs Mercon V. So what they do is use Mercon (since they have a few thousand gallons of it), and then put a bottle of additive in to "bring it up" to Mercon V levels. This is total BS, and not correct.

It probably is wise, as mooseracing said, to change it a few times in a short period of time. Personally I'd go my route, but if you go just straight ATF flush, make sure to change the filter the first couple of times and flush a couple times in a row.

Either way, Good Luck!

Chuck

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: herm0016
black means lots of clutch material in the fluid. does it smell burnt? or is it still sweet smelling? i would change the fluid and the filter, and not touch anything else.

never "flush" a transmission. this is what breaks them. it dislodges all the built up stuff, then it gets stuck in the valve body and kills the trans.

I wish people who don't understand what a flush does would quit posting "don't ever flush your transmission".

If you are going to service this transmission, and I definitely would: Drop the pan and clean it out first, this is where all the gunk is, then: Flush it, by all means. There isn't that much gunk in the transmission, other than in the pan. It's in a constant ATF bath whenever it's running....there is rarely any gunk on the internals, other than what's being circulated in the fluid....so changing the fluid is THE way to get this crap out of there.

If you don't change the fluid one way or another, the trans isn't going to last. If you do, there might already be irreparable damage done and it might not last anyway, but then again....it MIGHT. And probably WILL.

Here's why mechanics for years, WAY before flushes ever came out, told people not to change fluid in a high-mileage, never serviced transmission: ATF has detergent in it. New ATF will start cleaning the transmission inside, and possibly break up some gunk, and make the valve body stick.

Flushing the transmission is simply using the pressure of the transmission's own pump to change out ALL the fluid. You don't get the fluid out of the torque converter when you do a fluid/filter change.
A flush machine simply hooks to the cooler lines, and as the trans pumps the old fluid out, it sucks brand new fluid in.

Before flushing, most kits have a cleaner that you pour in and run for a few minutes to clean the inside.

BG cleaner works GREAT.

I'll give an anecdote: When the dealership I used to work for bought flush machines, the BG reps were demoing them for us. Usually, they'd just flush a trans on a random employee car that was volunteered.
Finally, after some questions about how well the cleaner really worked, the BG rep asked for a car with a trans failure.....we had just the thing: An Aerostar that had over 100k, and the transmission was SMOKED. I'm talking, the fluid really, really stunk, and the trans wouldn't pull. We already had approval to overhaul it from the customer, so the BG guy hooked the machine up to it.
Then the trans man pulled it and tore it down. It looked almost new inside. Barely any cleaning for him to do. Worked wonders.

With a Camry, that you'd expect the trans to last up near 200k or more, I'd damn sure get that fluid changed.....it's certainly not going to last if you don't.

 

[chucky2]

Why would you ever run a solvent harsh enough to dissolve buildup in minutes through a transmission...especially one with high mileage on it? That sounds.....risky......

Chuck

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: chucky2
Why would you ever run a solvent harsh enough to dissolve buildup in minutes through a transmission...especially one with high mileage on it? That sounds.....risky......

Chuck

It's not that harsh. And it's not like buildup in an engine, that's crusted. It's soft already. But that's why I recommended the OP have the pan cleaned out first, then flush it to clean the whole tranny. In the pan is where the vast majority of the gunk resides.

The cleaner is just petroleum distillates and some methyl alcohol. It's not like you're putting naval jelly in there.

All I can tell you is, we did thousands of them, and the same place and others all over town continue to do them all day, every day. I never heard of doing a flush causing a failure.

And even if a very few did, the odds are very much in your favor that flushing a trans, even a high-mileage trans (and I don't consider a 120k Camry like OP has to be all that "high mileage") will extend the life of the transmission, not shorten it.
And the odds are nearly 100% that NOT servicing the transmission one way or the other will lead to early failure.