AT World of Warcraft Thread (WotLK, where do you play, General BS and all that)

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dougp

Diamond Member
May 3, 2002
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Why remove buffs? That doesn't make any sense.

If something is seemingly *required* for a raid to be successful, the way Blizz is making changes, then every class should receive it. In that regard, just give everyone the minor boost to DPS these things provide, and then everything will be left to "skill" and "encounter knowledge."

Though, I can see Kings being a nice buff, 10% stat increase is sweet - but MotW is only 37 or 45 talented, not much of a change.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
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Heh, one thing I see in the Paragon vs LK25-HM video is that there are no Enhancement Shamans :p.

Good. Earn your raid spot by being a good player, as it should be.

Now I just want to see Kings, motw, and Fort go to a second class each, the drum/scroll solution is silly.

Except that there is still the looming issue that totems are an absolute waste compared to other buffs because of their range. In some fights, this isn't so much of an issue, but the fact that a Frost Death Knight is essentially a 100 yard totem for their version of Windfury (Improved Icy Touch) makes our 40 yard range look rather paltry. The only advantage we have is that we can place it anywhere and that could possibly be a good thing.

They want totems to be more special but totems don't provide exclusive buffs anymore. Why allow buffs to have a similar effect but still leave a disparity in radius?

I don't doubt that my capability will earn me a raid spot regardless of who has Heroism/Bloodlust/Time Warp or not. I typically perform at or above the rogues in my raid group (who are usually considered one of the top "bars" in flat DPS performance).

One thing I'm wondering... Blizzard stated awhile ago that they expect a 25-man raid to have Heroism, but they do not expect a 10-man to have it. Will they expect it now? They do base boss fights on what buffs they expect you to have.

EDIT:

Heh, finished the Paragon video and they were in Frostmourne when he enraged... the chat going on was pretty much, "Okay... which Hunter is going to distracting shot?" :p
 
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lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
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they seem to have identified most of the problems with their PVP system (area/world pvp notwithstanding), but I'll still hold my breath on them actually creating a viable solution.




We're not killing off Arenas, nor do we regret introducing them. (Rob said in an interview once that we regretted *how* we introduced them. Big difference.)

Part of the problem with how we introduced Arena was we offered extremely powerful rewards that were available relatively easily. Everyone I know participated in Arena at the start of BC. Were they having fun? Several of them weren't. But they figured the had to do it to stay competitive. In fact, in BC the PvP rewards were so easy and required such little time per week to get that they threatened to divert a lot of players from raiding to get epics.

Flash forward to Lich King. We made it harder, in that it took more actual wins, to earn great PvP rewards. At the same time, we made raiding much more accessible. This got a lot of the players who didn't want to participate in Arenas out of there. But it wasn't enough. We still had a lot of players who liked PvP and / or didn't enjoy raiding who still felt like Arenas were there only avenue to great gear. Unfortunately, if they weren't that good, or if they picked a spec that wasn't that good, or they picked a comp that wasn't that good, then they were just spinning their wheels since we no longer offered them great rewards for just losing matches each week.

The idea behind rated BGs is to be able to offer the best PvP rewards through both Arenas or BGs. If you love BGs but don't like Arenas, you can still get great rewards. If you love Arenas, hopefully the experience will be even better for you because the guys who don't like Arenas will be off doing something else. If you like both Arenas and BGs, great, you have more choices in what you do that week. If you like PvP but still lose a lot, yes you're still going to be a season behind the guys who win a lot. We'll reward you gear just for participating, but if you want th best gear, you still need to win. (Source)
 

dougp

Diamond Member
May 3, 2002
7,909
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they seem to have identified most of the problems with their PVP system (area/world pvp notwithstanding), but I'll still hold my breath on them actually creating a viable solution.




We're not killing off Arenas, nor do we regret introducing them. (Rob said in an interview once that we regretted *how* we introduced them. Big difference.)

Part of the problem with how we introduced Arena was we offered extremely powerful rewards that were available relatively easily. Everyone I know participated in Arena at the start of BC. Were they having fun? Several of them weren't. But they figured the had to do it to stay competitive. In fact, in BC the PvP rewards were so easy and required such little time per week to get that they threatened to divert a lot of players from raiding to get epics.

Flash forward to Lich King. We made it harder, in that it took more actual wins, to earn great PvP rewards. At the same time, we made raiding much more accessible. This got a lot of the players who didn't want to participate in Arenas out of there. But it wasn't enough. We still had a lot of players who liked PvP and / or didn't enjoy raiding who still felt like Arenas were there only avenue to great gear. Unfortunately, if they weren't that good, or if they picked a spec that wasn't that good, or they picked a comp that wasn't that good, then they were just spinning their wheels since we no longer offered them great rewards for just losing matches each week.

The idea behind rated BGs is to be able to offer the best PvP rewards through both Arenas or BGs. If you love BGs but don't like Arenas, you can still get great rewards. If you love Arenas, hopefully the experience will be even better for you because the guys who don't like Arenas will be off doing something else. If you like both Arenas and BGs, great, you have more choices in what you do that week. If you like PvP but still lose a lot, yes you're still going to be a season behind the guys who win a lot. We'll reward you gear just for participating, but if you want th best gear, you still need to win. (Source)

Sounds like they're really getting the idea - for once. I don't mind being a season behind for being willing to only participate in minimal arena (10 games a week, losing as fast as possible) or for BGing. I love that idea actually - but it still dissapoints me how much this game relies on gear. I don't know, maybe I'm stuck in the mindset of UO or DAoC where gear was all player made and it was the people who made the difference.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
Have I recently said how much I love the warsong peeps. After a few unintelligible chat lines I decided to check the other guys and found myself as the only one not from there last night. As least I the opening line was in english, thankfully, since it was "pull fast do not stop quick run". If not for the frostwhispee shield event in drak I think it would have been about a five minute run. Funniest thing was that while mostly geared, these guys weren't uber raid geared like most groups I see doing this. Saw the tank hit about 10% health a couple times while druid was catching up to him.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
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Sounds like they're really getting the idea - for once. I don't mind being a season behind for being willing to only participate in minimal arena (10 games a week, losing as fast as possible) or for BGing. I love that idea actually - but it still dissapoints me how much this game relies on gear. I don't know, maybe I'm stuck in the mindset of UO or DAoC where gear was all player made and it was the people who made the difference.

Arena is way too geared based. I don't mind needed gear, but having it near impossible for beginners to obtain is extremely limiting. Luckily, raiding is so easy you can buy decent gear with emblems to get started, but good luck finding a winning team. Nobody good wants to be on the team of a beginner, regardless of gear.

I wish they would make an MMO like UO. I'd easily quit WoW for that.
 

dougp

Diamond Member
May 3, 2002
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Arena is way too geared based. I don't mind needed gear, but having it near impossible for beginners to obtain is extremely limiting. Luckily, raiding is so easy you can buy decent gear with emblems to get started, but good luck finding a winning team. Nobody good wants to be on the team of a beginner, regardless of gear.

I wish they would make an MMO like UO. I'd easily quit WoW for that.

Well, I agree - it can also be quite frustrating in BGs with no resilience, and just as troublesome for a beginner. I hate arenas, with a passion - but it does help to keep pre-mades out also. I'm working on rounding out my druid, but here he is:

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Thunderhorn&cn=Replace

Yes, I am missing items - but the upgrades I do have make me feel like I can compete in BGs - I don't die as quickly anymore, and I can put out respectable DPS. I only expect it to get better when I replace a few more pieces of PvE gear and get the nice 15% run speed buff from the Gladiator's 4pc bonus.
 

DangerAardvark

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2004
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Yeah, the baseline for any sort of PVP has become 1k resilience and ICC weapons. Less than that and every passing Hunter will 2 shot you and healers will be immortal. And even with that, there's a huge jump from Relentless gear to Wrathful. Item level inflation combined with the resilience buff is ridiculous in PVP.
 

dougp

Diamond Member
May 3, 2002
7,909
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Yeah, the baseline for any sort of PVP has become 1k resilience and ICC weapons. Less than that and every passing Hunter will 2 shot you and healers will be immortal. And even with that, there's a huge jump from Relentless gear to Wrathful. Item level inflation combined with the resilience buff is ridiculous in PVP.

Very true, but there's the beauty of stealth :)

I can get to 1k resilience, but I also understand that I won't live a long time with 1k resil anyways. My targets are already weakened players, solo players or going after healers when my group is attacking an objective. I generally live if I play smart, and I can 3 shot someone who's in PvE gear :)
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
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If, as a hunter, I find someone with low resil, they drop almost instantly. But I PVP surv raid spec'd for the most part. Getting a 3 tick of 8k explo crits is pretty harsh on any class.
 

dougp

Diamond Member
May 3, 2002
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If, as a hunter, I find someone with low resil, they drop almost instantly. But I PVP surv raid spec'd for the most part. Getting a 3 tick of 8k explo crits is pretty harsh on any class.

That's true, Rip and Rake are the same way for me.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
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I stopped pvp'in for about a year. Started up recently after getting a couple VOA pieces, using the maxed out honor I had, and with my max level JC/Çhanter to equip it. My res value now is over 900, an incredible difference from the four hundred something I had before. I can actually stand there against one melee type against me and don't instantly get dropped anymore.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
I only have 3 of the Frost Badge pieces and the off pieces from honor, but I am at around 700 resil. Thankfully, the rest of my gear is good PvE gear so my damage output is pretty high.
 

invidia

Platinum Member
Oct 8, 2006
2,151
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I really like the idea of rated BGs. They were talking about how a good amount of players despise arena (like me). Arenas are too challenging (at least in my Battlegroup). And if you are not the right class/comp, you won't progress anywhere no matter how hard you try. You will hit a rating cap based purely on composition.

Comparing that to raiding, it's easier because guilds actually progress and WoTLK content is very easy compared to the days of pre-BC. I'm seeing PuG groups for 10/25m ICC heroics already. Good groups can get up to 3/12 heroic with a bit of luck. It will be soon when you start seeing PuGs going 12/12 in 25m and start pugging for heroic ICC.

They are right how PvP gear is much harder to get than PvE in WoTLK and vice versa in BC. I really hope rated BGs can find a common ground where I can get PvP gear without worrying about composition or PvEing for PvP gear (ie. weapons especially)
 
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DangerAardvark

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2004
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If, as a hunter, I find someone with low resil, they drop almost instantly. But I PVP surv raid spec'd for the most part. Getting a 3 tick of 8k explo crits is pretty harsh on any class.

Yep. That's why I like to do WG. If I find a PVE geared clothie, he can have 40k HP and he wont live much past the silencing shot.
 

Bryf50

Golden Member
Nov 11, 2006
1,429
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WoTLK content is very easy compared to the days of pre-BC.
Say that after watching paragon's 25-man H Lk. Even averaging 12k dps they hit the enrage timer. It had to have required an insane amount of coordination to pull it off.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
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other than C'thun and Naxx, pre-BC wasn't really "hard" so much as we were much worse players (and didn't have crutches like threat meters)
 

Soccerman06

Diamond Member
Jul 29, 2004
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other than C'thun and Naxx, pre-BC wasn't really "hard" so much as we were much worse players (and didn't have crutches like threat meters)

You obviously never did pre nerf bwl or rag. And threat wasnt an issue if your tank had thunderfury, if he didnt, you would actually have to not dps awhile.
 

invidia

Platinum Member
Oct 8, 2006
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Say that after watching paragon's 25-man H Lk. Even averaging 12k dps they hit the enrage timer. It had to have required an insane amount of coordination to pull it off.

Yeah, I saw it. But that's just one fight and it should be the hardest fight in the game since LK is the final boss. DPS shouldn't be taken into account.

Compared to some of the fights in pre-BC, there were fights probably equivalent to multiple HM ICC 25m. Granted that you can lose a couple of people in 40-mans and still beat a boss, but try coordinating +35 other players without the help of the mods we have today. I think I recalled getting DBM or Bigwigs during BWL days, but I can't remember if it even existed at that time. Plus, everyone did not have access to the useful talents/spells/abilities they have now.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
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You obviously never did pre nerf bwl or rag. And threat wasnt an issue if your tank had thunderfury, if he didnt, you would actually have to not dps awhile.
I did. none of the strats were particularly complicated, but everything before fights like Rag or Razorgore was pure tank and spank, so naturally they were huge ramp-ups (plus the added complexity of having to coordinate 40 people).

can you imagine how easy Vael would have been with threat meters?

I can't speak for TF, though. we had crap luck and didn't get our firsr Thunderfury until we were already half-way into AQ40.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
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can you imagine how easy Vael would have been with threat meters?

We did Vael without threat meters... we had our warriors (tanks, lol) execute spam after the first tank got the burnin'. KTM eventually came out while most guilds were still in BWL and it helped them do it.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
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We did Vael without threat meters... we had our warriors (tanks, lol) execute spam after the first tank got the burnin'. KTM eventually came out while most guilds were still in BWL and it helped them do it.
hah. us rogues used to spam feint every CD and vanish once she was low enough for the warriors to start executing.
 

Soccerman06

Diamond Member
Jul 29, 2004
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I did. none of the strats were particularly complicated, but everything before fights like Rag or Razorgore was pure tank and spank, so naturally they were huge ramp-ups (plus the added complexity of having to coordinate 40 people).

can you imagine how easy Vael would have been with threat meters?

I can't speak for TF, though. we had crap luck and didn't get our firsr Thunderfury until we were already half-way into AQ40.

The fights themselves were simple, the enrage/dps/resist benchmarks werent.
 
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