At what income level do you consider someone is rich?

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May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: oddyager
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: alkemyst
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: alkemyst
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
He's not insane, you're out of touch. 30k a year can do everything you named, EASILY. The VAST percentage of people in America earn that or less.

You are confusing that this VAST PERCENTAGE is solvent. Many are struggling paycheck to paycheck with no debts.

I'd like to see your math on how $20-35k can support 3+ people with a nice place, new cars and the like

And yet, huge percentages of the country do it, and have always done it. I did it, my friends and family did it...it's just not that hard. You just have to avoid ever paying a percentage (so no credit purchases), make reasonable life choices (value shopping), stay out of spendy areas (live in the other 99% of the country), etc.

You have not answered the question.

Saying your family...what is that? Your parents 20 years ago?

Show us the math were even with living in a NICE house, 30k can support 3 people with new cars and ammenities and living a great life.

It's impossible.

Just because the average income is a certain amount in our country does not mean people are living well at it.

Please break it down for us.

I'm in a different situation now, since I own my home outright. I'm 36, so that should give you an idea on time frame for reference.

Rent/mortgage for a nice place in a good neighborhood was about $700. It hasn't gone up much since I last paid (according to friends family who are still paying). Throw in property taxes, insurance, and such and you're at about $850.

Phone, internet, cable, water/sewer/garbage, & electricity are about $200/mo now, but they have increased substantially in a short time. Used to be barely half that.

Car insurance is about the same price as it was; say $50-75/mo. Gas is more expensive. We spend about $100-150/mo. That's about double what I used to pay.

Food is way more now than it was a few years ago, but we still eat for about $400/mo.

Other monthly stuff (clothes, housewares, etc) may run us $150 a month.

So there's everything you need for less than $2000/mo. If you save the rest (from a 30k/yr salary), you can buy a new car outright with no problem every 2-3 years. If you're good to your vehicles you can keep them 5-10 years in great condition, so that means vacations, entertainment, etc.

Things have gotten more expensive, definitely. I imagine if I were 20 right now doing it all over again it would be MUCH tighter living...might have to be in an apartment instead of a house, skip the extras, smaller vacations and Christmases, etc. However we'd still do it, as all of our friends and family do.

My own anecdotes are irrelevant however. Just go into any small (under 50k pop) town not a suburb of a major metropolis. Find a good area (clean, low crime, etc). Out of every 10 homes in that area, 7 are kept up by people with the income we're talking about (under 50k). And the funny thing is, most people live with credit, which SEVERELY hurts their lifestyle. If those same people would go cash only they'd have even better lifestyles than they do.


Utilities for under $200 per month? That's incredibly low.

You're right, my math was bad. Call it $250.

We pay about 85 for phone/internet/cable. W/S/G is 135 every two months, but is up about $40 from 5 years ago (city is replacing water infrastructure). Electricity used to be $75/mo, but is up to about $100.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,483
8,344
126
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

So there's everything you need for less than $2000/mo. If you save the rest (from a 30k/yr salary), you can buy a new car outright with no problem every 2-3 years. If you're good to your vehicles you can keep them 5-10 years in great condition, so that means vacations, entertainment, etc.

Things have gotten more expensive, definitely. I imagine if I were 20 right now doing it all over again it would be MUCH tighter living...might have to be in an apartment instead of a house, skip the extras, smaller vacations and Christmases, etc. However we'd still do it, as all of our friends and family do.

My own anecdotes are irrelevant however. Just go into any small (under 50k pop) town not a suburb of a major metropolis. Find a good area (clean, low crime, etc). Out of every 10 homes in that area, 7 are kept up by people with the income we're talking about (under 50k). And the funny thing is, most people live with credit, which SEVERELY hurts their lifestyle. If those same people would go cash only they'd have even better lifestyles than they do.

I have a couple problems with this.

1) At $30k a year you GROSS $2500 a month. You haven't taken out Social Security, taxes, insurance premiums, retirement benefits, ect. After even a few of those are taken out you are running a razor thin line of living paycheck to paycheck.

2) You have zero wiggle room for any issues that pop up. Car tires. New lawn mower. Perscription/medical premiums not covered. Water heater goes out. Ect.

3) No wiggle room equals no cash reserves. No cash reserves means you have to live off of credit at some point.

4) With this income to expenses you aren't saving a lick for your retirement or college savings.

Your math is entirely best case.
 
May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: vi edit
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

So there's everything you need for less than $2000/mo. If you save the rest (from a 30k/yr salary), you can buy a new car outright with no problem every 2-3 years. If you're good to your vehicles you can keep them 5-10 years in great condition, so that means vacations, entertainment, etc.

Things have gotten more expensive, definitely. I imagine if I were 20 right now doing it all over again it would be MUCH tighter living...might have to be in an apartment instead of a house, skip the extras, smaller vacations and Christmases, etc. However we'd still do it, as all of our friends and family do.

My own anecdotes are irrelevant however. Just go into any small (under 50k pop) town not a suburb of a major metropolis. Find a good area (clean, low crime, etc). Out of every 10 homes in that area, 7 are kept up by people with the income we're talking about (under 50k). And the funny thing is, most people live with credit, which SEVERELY hurts their lifestyle. If those same people would go cash only they'd have even better lifestyles than they do.

I have a couple problems with this.

1) At $30k a year you GROSS $2500 a month. You haven't taken out Social Security, taxes, insurance premiums, retirement benefits, ect. After even a few of those are taken out you are running a razor thin line of living paycheck to paycheck.

2) You have zero wiggle room for any issues that pop up. Car tires. New lawn mower. Perscription/medical premiums not covered. Water heater goes out. Ect.

3) No wiggle room equals no cash reserves. No cash reserves means you have to live off of credit at some point.

4) With this income to expenses you aren't saving a lick for your retirement or college savings.

Your math is entirely best case.

You are incorrect. At 30k per year (married, with kids) you pay basically no income taxes. SS, etc are also incredibly low. Some, sure, but nothing meaningful. I'm 36, been working since I was 16, and I've only had to pay income taxes 2 years (both when I was at/near the 30k mark), but both times it was just a few hundred dollars (maybe close to a grand).

Insurance is optional, as are retirement/investments. I personally have only had insurance a few years in my life because it either wasn't offered or was so prohibitively expensive (like 60%+ of my income) as to not be an option. I also don't invest, so that was never a consideration. Yes, you have to at some point, in some way, put money away, but you can do that through cheap living for the most part.

It also doesn't include random money influxes that happen all the time...birthdays, christmas, refunds, work on the side, poker games, etc. While not major those little things can easily cover the emergency expenditures you're talking about.

College? That's what grants and scholarships are for. Though I have taken a couple small student loans in my life, I never will again. A first mortgage is an understandable debt, as is some of a car loan and possibly small school loans. You have to be smart about it though.
 

oddyager

Diamond Member
May 21, 2005
3,398
0
76
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: vi edit
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

So there's everything you need for less than $2000/mo. If you save the rest (from a 30k/yr salary), you can buy a new car outright with no problem every 2-3 years. If you're good to your vehicles you can keep them 5-10 years in great condition, so that means vacations, entertainment, etc.

Things have gotten more expensive, definitely. I imagine if I were 20 right now doing it all over again it would be MUCH tighter living...might have to be in an apartment instead of a house, skip the extras, smaller vacations and Christmases, etc. However we'd still do it, as all of our friends and family do.

My own anecdotes are irrelevant however. Just go into any small (under 50k pop) town not a suburb of a major metropolis. Find a good area (clean, low crime, etc). Out of every 10 homes in that area, 7 are kept up by people with the income we're talking about (under 50k). And the funny thing is, most people live with credit, which SEVERELY hurts their lifestyle. If those same people would go cash only they'd have even better lifestyles than they do.

I have a couple problems with this.

1) At $30k a year you GROSS $2500 a month. You haven't taken out Social Security, taxes, insurance premiums, retirement benefits, ect. After even a few of those are taken out you are running a razor thin line of living paycheck to paycheck.

2) You have zero wiggle room for any issues that pop up. Car tires. New lawn mower. Perscription/medical premiums not covered. Water heater goes out. Ect.

3) No wiggle room equals no cash reserves. No cash reserves means you have to live off of credit at some point.

4) With this income to expenses you aren't saving a lick for your retirement or college savings.

Your math is entirely best case.

You are incorrect. At 30k per year (married, with kids) you pay basically no income taxes. SS, etc are also incredibly low. Some, sure, but nothing meaningful. I'm 36, been working since I was 16, and I've only had to pay income taxes 2 years (both when I was at/near the 30k mark), but both times it was just a few hundred dollars (maybe close to a grand).

It also doesn't include random money influxes that happen all the time...birthdays, christmas, refunds, work on the side, poker games, etc. While not major those little things can easily cover the emergency expenditures you're talking about.


You pay income taxes regardless if you are married, with or without kids, or single. The only difference is that you are placed in different tax brackets.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
81
Originally posted by: vi edit
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

So there's everything you need for less than $2000/mo. If you save the rest (from a 30k/yr salary), you can buy a new car outright with no problem every 2-3 years. If you're good to your vehicles you can keep them 5-10 years in great condition, so that means vacations, entertainment, etc.

Things have gotten more expensive, definitely. I imagine if I were 20 right now doing it all over again it would be MUCH tighter living...might have to be in an apartment instead of a house, skip the extras, smaller vacations and Christmases, etc. However we'd still do it, as all of our friends and family do.

My own anecdotes are irrelevant however. Just go into any small (under 50k pop) town not a suburb of a major metropolis. Find a good area (clean, low crime, etc). Out of every 10 homes in that area, 7 are kept up by people with the income we're talking about (under 50k). And the funny thing is, most people live with credit, which SEVERELY hurts their lifestyle. If those same people would go cash only they'd have even better lifestyles than they do.

I have a couple problems with this.

1) At $30k a year you GROSS $2500 a month. You haven't taken out Social Security, taxes, insurance premiums, retirement benefits, ect. After even a few of those are taken out you are running a razor thin line of living paycheck to paycheck.

2) You have zero wiggle room for any issues that pop up. Car tires. New lawn mower. Perscription/medical premiums not covered. Water heater goes out. Ect.

3) No wiggle room equals no cash reserves. No cash reserves means you have to live off of credit at some point.

4) With this income to expenses you aren't saving a lick for your retirement or college savings.

Your math is entirely best case.

Not best case, impossible. In addition to what you listed (savings) Federal income tax on 30k is 15%, or $4550, leaving you with $25,500 BEFORE SS/insurance/retirement/State&Local taxes which will bring you down thousands more. At the $2000/mo that he estimates he's already spent more than he makes. Gas price increases alone for the last 2 years would have bankrupted with that margin. And even if he eked out a few thousand more somehow, over the course of a year incidentals would drown him. Let alone spending the negative amount of savings on a new car every 2-3 years?! It's a fantasy.
 
May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: oddyager
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: vi edit
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

So there's everything you need for less than $2000/mo. If you save the rest (from a 30k/yr salary), you can buy a new car outright with no problem every 2-3 years. If you're good to your vehicles you can keep them 5-10 years in great condition, so that means vacations, entertainment, etc.

Things have gotten more expensive, definitely. I imagine if I were 20 right now doing it all over again it would be MUCH tighter living...might have to be in an apartment instead of a house, skip the extras, smaller vacations and Christmases, etc. However we'd still do it, as all of our friends and family do.

My own anecdotes are irrelevant however. Just go into any small (under 50k pop) town not a suburb of a major metropolis. Find a good area (clean, low crime, etc). Out of every 10 homes in that area, 7 are kept up by people with the income we're talking about (under 50k). And the funny thing is, most people live with credit, which SEVERELY hurts their lifestyle. If those same people would go cash only they'd have even better lifestyles than they do.

I have a couple problems with this.

1) At $30k a year you GROSS $2500 a month. You haven't taken out Social Security, taxes, insurance premiums, retirement benefits, ect. After even a few of those are taken out you are running a razor thin line of living paycheck to paycheck.

2) You have zero wiggle room for any issues that pop up. Car tires. New lawn mower. Perscription/medical premiums not covered. Water heater goes out. Ect.

3) No wiggle room equals no cash reserves. No cash reserves means you have to live off of credit at some point.

4) With this income to expenses you aren't saving a lick for your retirement or college savings.

Your math is entirely best case.

You are incorrect. At 30k per year (married, with kids) you pay basically no income taxes. SS, etc are also incredibly low. Some, sure, but nothing meaningful. I'm 36, been working since I was 16, and I've only had to pay income taxes 2 years (both when I was at/near the 30k mark), but both times it was just a few hundred dollars (maybe close to a grand).

It also doesn't include random money influxes that happen all the time...birthdays, christmas, refunds, work on the side, poker games, etc. While not major those little things can easily cover the emergency expenditures you're talking about.


You pay income taxes regardless if you are married, with or without kids, or single. The only difference is that you are placed in different tax brackets.

The deductions/exemptions you draw married, head of household, with kids, at low income basically covers your income. Just using standard deductions your only owing $1000 a year in taxes, which is easily offset by education expenses, etc.

I'm telling you, if you make less than 30k a year you pay basically nothing out of your check.
 

oznerol

Platinum Member
Apr 29, 2002
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www.lorenzoisawesome.com
I don't understand what's being argued here. Is it that a family can't survive on a 30K/year paycheck? Or that 30K/year is middle class? Or what?

You can live on 30K. It will be tight, and not much will be saved - particularly for retirement. But it's possible.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: ducci
I don't understand what's being argued here. Is it that a family can't survive on a 30K/year paycheck? Or that 30K/year is middle class? Or what?

You can live on 30K. It will be tight, and not much will be saved - particularly for retirement. But it's possible.

Depends on where you live whether you can survive on $30K.

If you live in the Northeast your taxes for the year is close to $30K so you certainly cannot survive on a $30K salary.
 

thomsbrain

Lifer
Dec 4, 2001
18,148
1
0
I'd say $250,000 a year household income would be doing pretty damn good. If your family was smart with money and didn't spend it all on hookers and blow, you would likely retire with a comfortable 8-figure net worth.

Even with a fairly modest salary, if you start saving for retirement early, you can retire with multiple millions in assets. But of course those millions will be worth a lot less when you get there. :)
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,986
1,388
126
To paraphrase an old saying...

If you have to ask how much, you ain't rich.
 

thomsbrain

Lifer
Dec 4, 2001
18,148
1
0
Originally posted by: Special K
It's all relative... even someone making $500k/year is poor compared to Gates or Buffet.

I don't see it that way, though. For the most part, people like Gates and Buffett don't live significantly different lifestyles than someone who makes $500,000 a year. Gates has one or two rare sports cars and big-ass compound, but someone who made $500K/year and had focused goals could get those things, too. Buffett drives a lame American sedan and lives in a house that is nice but probably easily in reach of the upper-middle class in Omaha. Gates and Buffett just sit on enormous piles of wealth that they could never spend on anything worth having. At a certain point, you can afford all the toys you want, and more money doesn't really do anything. For those kind of guys, they're really more interested in business than toys anyway, which is why they give away billions of dollars and have that give them more happiness than building "Citizen Kane" castles or buying small countries.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81

Originally posted by: vi edit
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

So there's everything you need for less than $2000/mo. If you save the rest (from a 30k/yr salary), you can buy a new car outright with no problem every 2-3 years. If you're good to your vehicles you can keep them 5-10 years in great condition, so that means vacations, entertainment, etc.

Things have gotten more expensive, definitely. I imagine if I were 20 right now doing it all over again it would be MUCH tighter living...might have to be in an apartment instead of a house, skip the extras, smaller vacations and Christmases, etc. However we'd still do it, as all of our friends and family do.

My own anecdotes are irrelevant however. Just go into any small (under 50k pop) town not a suburb of a major metropolis. Find a good area (clean, low crime, etc). Out of every 10 homes in that area, 7 are kept up by people with the income we're talking about (under 50k). And the funny thing is, most people live with credit, which SEVERELY hurts their lifestyle. If those same people would go cash only they'd have even better lifestyles than they do.

I have a couple problems with this.

1) At $30k a year you GROSS $2500 a month. You haven't taken out Social Security, taxes, insurance premiums, retirement benefits, ect. After even a few of those are taken out you are running a razor thin line of living paycheck to paycheck.

2) You have zero wiggle room for any issues that pop up. Car tires. New lawn mower. Perscription/medical premiums not covered. Water heater goes out. Ect.

3) No wiggle room equals no cash reserves. No cash reserves means you have to live off of credit at some point.

4) With this income to expenses you aren't saving a lick for your retirement or college savings.

Your math is entirely best case.

Also while $700 can rent you something...it's not going to be a NEW house or even newer today...are you talking about something bought YEARS ago?

on that car that's only costing you $50-70 a month for insurance...definitely not a nicer newer car that you stated...definitely not 3 cars in that household either.

How do you handle needing a car today? Even though your math is flawed, most cannot wait 2-3 years to get a car.

PrinceofWands, are you living on your own now or really just speculating based on someone else's support of you?


 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
Originally posted by: thomsbrain
Originally posted by: Special K
It's all relative... even someone making $500k/year is poor compared to Gates or Buffet.

I don't see it that way, though. For the most part, people like Gates and Buffett don't live significantly different lifestyles than someone who makes $500,000 a year. Gates has one or two rare sports cars and big-ass compound, but someone who made $500K/year and had focused goals could get those things, too. Buffett drives a lame American sedan and lives in a house that is nice but probably easily in reach of the upper-middle class in Omaha. Gates and Buffett just sit on enormous piles of wealth that they could never spend on anything worth having. At a certain point, you can afford all the toys you want, and more money doesn't really do anything. For those kind of guys, they're really more interested in business than toys anyway, which is why they give away billions of dollars and have that give them more happiness than building "Citizen Kane" castles or buying small countries.

Gate's compound is pretty far out of each for someone only pulling down $500k a year.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
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Originally posted by: ducci
I don't understand what's being argued here. Is it that a family can't survive on a 30K/year paycheck? Or that 30K/year is middle class? Or what?

You can live on 30K. It will be tight, and not much will be saved - particularly for retirement. But it's possible.

It's gotten far afield. I claimed that at 100k you're basically living like a king if you have a brain in your head.

People disagreed, so I went on to argue that most people live under 50k a year, and even at 20-30k a year it was possible to live in a nice house, in a nice area, with all the creature comforts...again, if you did it smart. In my mind that argument was just showing that if you can live comfortably at 30k, you can live like a king with 70k more a year.

People went off on my secondary claim however, so that's why the two pages of 30k debate. The previous claim of 100k=king has been lost in the chaos, and the OP question of what's rich might as well be a thread about bacon and bunnies at this point.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
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Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: vi edit
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

So there's everything you need for less than $2000/mo. If you save the rest (from a 30k/yr salary), you can buy a new car outright with no problem every 2-3 years. If you're good to your vehicles you can keep them 5-10 years in great condition, so that means vacations, entertainment, etc.

Things have gotten more expensive, definitely. I imagine if I were 20 right now doing it all over again it would be MUCH tighter living...might have to be in an apartment instead of a house, skip the extras, smaller vacations and Christmases, etc. However we'd still do it, as all of our friends and family do.

My own anecdotes are irrelevant however. Just go into any small (under 50k pop) town not a suburb of a major metropolis. Find a good area (clean, low crime, etc). Out of every 10 homes in that area, 7 are kept up by people with the income we're talking about (under 50k). And the funny thing is, most people live with credit, which SEVERELY hurts their lifestyle. If those same people would go cash only they'd have even better lifestyles than they do.

I have a couple problems with this.

1) At $30k a year you GROSS $2500 a month. You haven't taken out Social Security, taxes, insurance premiums, retirement benefits, ect. After even a few of those are taken out you are running a razor thin line of living paycheck to paycheck.

2) You have zero wiggle room for any issues that pop up. Car tires. New lawn mower. Perscription/medical premiums not covered. Water heater goes out. Ect.

3) No wiggle room equals no cash reserves. No cash reserves means you have to live off of credit at some point.

4) With this income to expenses you aren't saving a lick for your retirement or college savings.

Your math is entirely best case.

Also while $700 can rent you something...it's not going to be a NEW house or even newer today...are you talking about something bought YEARS ago?

on that car that's only costing you $50-70 a month for insurance...definitely not a nicer newer car that you stated...definitely not 3 cars in that household either.

How do you handle needing a car today? Even though your math is flawed, most cannot wait 2-3 years to get a car.

PrinceofWands, are you living on your own now or really just speculating based on someone else's support of you?

$125k at 6% over 30 is roughly within the cost analysis I provided, and is in the 700-850/mo mark. Granted, that's going to be a house under 2400sq', probably built 5-15 years ago, but people really don't need 5000sq' homes and that's new enough to be a modern home. In fact I would argue that you don't want a home built in the last 5 years since material quality (and often craftsmanship) is a thing of the past.

No, it's for 2 cars. However that's at the price of reasonable autos. If you're buying a Lexus or Mercedes then you're not being reasonable, especially talking about a 30k income. There's really nothing a 30,000 car can do that a 12,000 car can't anyway...it's just about status at that point. In 2000 My 97 chevy cavalier and 98 neon were costing me $74/mo for 2 drivers. The chevy's gone now and the neon is about to be traded for a small 05 pickup, but the insurance is still in the same ballpark. It's all I need, however you could just as easily substitute an '08 economy car and still be paying that. Just have no tickets, no accidents, 15 years of good driving, be over 35, etc.

You save up cash, and trade-in the old one. It's very easy to find a new car for around 12k. Talk them down a bit, get a grand on trade-in, hand them $8000 and drive your new car home. When I bought my cavalier, it was last years model, with 3600 miles on it, but otherwise brand new condition. I paid $8000 total, though I had to finance a couple thousand. I paid that off within six months, and that was that. If you choose to drop $30,000 on a vehicle because you think it's a status symbol or an investment then I refer you to my IQ of a kumquat earlier comment.

You can live well at 30k, or you can be stupid...not both.
 

maziwanka

Lifer
Jul 4, 2000
10,415
1
0
Originally posted by: Electric Amish
I consider myself rich when I can buy what I want on a whim and don't have to consider the money issue prior to purchase.

I don't have expensive tastes, but it's going to have to be at least $150-200k I think.

i think this is a good definition
 

aceO07

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2000
4,491
0
76
I think rich has many definitions depending on context. Someone might say "wow you're rich" if you just bought DSLR/HDTV. That just means you have extra cash to spend on something nice. This is different from "you're rich, you just built a basketball court in your house'.

PrinceofWands, I disagree on calling 30k 'living well'. It's livable anywhere, even in NYC, but it's not living 'well'. I think living 'well' should also include saving, retirement, health insurance, children's future(college) and not having to rely on government. Shouldn't need to rely on SS/Medicare. They usually don't cover all that you need. If you need medicines/treatments, good luck on having it all covered. Enjoy eating catfood while you save money to pay for the medicines you need to live (yes, I've heard this from people who work in pharmacies.).

I'd like to make/save enough that I can live my entire life the way that I live it now or better.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
0
Originally posted by: aceO07
I think rich has many definitions depending on context. Someone might say "wow you're rich" if you just bought DSLR/HDTV. That just means you have extra cash to spend on something nice. This is different from "you're rich, you just built a basketball court in your house'.

PrinceofWands, I disagree on calling 30k 'living well'. It's livable anywhere, even in NYC, but it's not living 'well'. I think living 'well' should also include saving, retirement, health insurance, children's future(college) and not having to rely on government. Shouldn't need to rely on SS/Medicare. They usually don't cover all that you need. If you need medicines/treatments, good luck on having it all covered. Enjoy eating catfood while you save money to pay for the medicines you need to live (yes, I've heard this from people who work in pharmacies.).

I'd like to make/save enough that I can live my entire life the way that I live it now or better.

I would agree, if that's what it meant...but it doesn't. I've never made over 30k, yet I've gone to college, and my children will go to college if they want (I have some savings for them and they can do the rest like I did). Not on medicare or ss or anything else. I've traveled overseas, I go to Disneyland, I take my daughter to a normal doctor, etc. We eat well, we have our own laptops and desktops, we have cable, we drive cars...there's nothing meaningful that you can do on 100k that you can't do on 30k - with the possible exception of seriously saving for retirement. You can live fine on 30k.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

$125k at 6% over 30 is roughly within the cost analysis I provided, and is in the 700-850/mo mark. Granted, that's going to be a house under 2400sq', probably built 5-15 years ago, but people really don't need 5000sq' homes and that's new enough to be a modern home. In fact I would argue that you don't want a home built in the last 5 years since material quality (and often craftsmanship) is a thing of the past.

so you are assuming everyone can live in an area where taxes and house insurance are next to nothing....most people can find deals on homes (2400sq ft is still considered a large home)...then find a job there.

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
No, it's for 2 cars. However that's at the price of reasonable autos. If you're buying a Lexus or Mercedes then you're not being reasonable, especially talking about a 30k income. There's really nothing a 30,000 car can do that a 12,000 car can't anyway...it's just about status at that point. In 2000 My 97 chevy cavalier and 98 neon were costing me $74/mo for 2 drivers. The chevy's gone now and the neon is about to be traded for a small 05 pickup, but the insurance is still in the same ballpark. It's all I need, however you could just as easily substitute an '08 economy car and still be paying that. Just have no tickets, no accidents, 15 years of good driving, be over 35, etc.

You said new cars though...those were around 'trade in' time for most .... So used cars at the lowest level. Not really anything nice about those...

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
You save up cash, and trade-in the old one. It's very easy to find a new car for around 12k. Talk them down a bit, get a grand on trade-in, hand them $8000 and drive your new car home. When I bought my cavalier, it was last years model, with 3600 miles on it, but otherwise brand new condition. I paid $8000 total, though I had to finance a couple thousand. I paid that off within six months, and that was that. If you choose to drop $30,000 on a vehicle because you think it's a status symbol or an investment then I refer you to my IQ of a kumquat earlier comment.
OK...like I said, you make $30k a year and have no car...where does this trade in come from? Where does the $8000 come from?

Not everyone can find a 'new' last years model car like that either.

It seems you are really cherry picking the possibilities. I still don't see any 3 people living well with only $30k coming in. They are definitely going without a lot of things.

By my math and assuming one only pays 5% in taxes at the end of the year (this breaks down though because there is a minimum you have to have taken out or get penalized)..SS is a set 7.65%

$30000 nets you 2211 a month.

Say gas for 2 cars was only $75 and insurance only $75
Your internet/cable/phone $85
The other bills about $250 like you said
food $400
Health insurance should be about $225 let's just say for 3 people with dental MAYBE...not a great policy and you'd need an employer footing some of the bill.

You are looking at $1000 left over.

No housing, no clothing, no vehicle costs. No emergencies.

So after your $700 rent (mortgage would be unlikely with taxes / insurance) you have $300 left for EVERYTHING and everything above was already at unreal minimums except for food which was reasonable for 3 people.

Definitely not living a nice life...and it'd take a LONG ASS time to save whatever is left of $300 to buy two yet alone one newer car.



 

Injury

Lifer
Jul 19, 2004
13,066
2
81
Originally posted by: Electric Amish
I consider myself rich when I can buy what I want on a whim and don't have to consider the money issue prior to purchase.

I don't have expensive tastes, but it's going to have to be at least $150-200k I think.

I agree with this.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
So all we have to do to live cheaply is move to cheap areas? Guess what, then the place you live cheaply right now will suddenly a high density expensive place to live. You have tunnel vision Prince. You think every situation is the same.
 

NoCreativity

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2008
1,735
62
91
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: vi edit
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

So there's everything you need for less than $2000/mo. If you save the rest (from a 30k/yr salary), you can buy a new car outright with no problem every 2-3 years. If you're good to your vehicles you can keep them 5-10 years in great condition, so that means vacations, entertainment, etc.

Things have gotten more expensive, definitely. I imagine if I were 20 right now doing it all over again it would be MUCH tighter living...might have to be in an apartment instead of a house, skip the extras, smaller vacations and Christmases, etc. However we'd still do it, as all of our friends and family do.

My own anecdotes are irrelevant however. Just go into any small (under 50k pop) town not a suburb of a major metropolis. Find a good area (clean, low crime, etc). Out of every 10 homes in that area, 7 are kept up by people with the income we're talking about (under 50k). And the funny thing is, most people live with credit, which SEVERELY hurts their lifestyle. If those same people would go cash only they'd have even better lifestyles than they do.

I have a couple problems with this.

1) At $30k a year you GROSS $2500 a month. You haven't taken out Social Security, taxes, insurance premiums, retirement benefits, ect. After even a few of those are taken out you are running a razor thin line of living paycheck to paycheck.

2) You have zero wiggle room for any issues that pop up. Car tires. New lawn mower. Perscription/medical premiums not covered. Water heater goes out. Ect.

3) No wiggle room equals no cash reserves. No cash reserves means you have to live off of credit at some point.

4) With this income to expenses you aren't saving a lick for your retirement or college savings.

Your math is entirely best case.

You are incorrect. At 30k per year (married, with kids) you pay basically no income taxes. SS, etc are also incredibly low. Some, sure, but nothing meaningful. I'm 36, been working since I was 16, and I've only had to pay income taxes 2 years (both when I was at/near the 30k mark), but both times it was just a few hundred dollars (maybe close to a grand).

Insurance is optional, as are retirement/investments. I personally have only had insurance a few years in my life because it either wasn't offered or was so prohibitively expensive (like 60%+ of my income) as to not be an option. I also don't invest, so that was never a consideration. Yes, you have to at some point, in some way, put money away, but you can do that through cheap living for the most part.
It also doesn't include random money influxes that happen all the time...birthdays, christmas, refunds, work on the side, poker games, etc. While not major those little things can easily cover the emergency expenditures you're talking about.

College? That's what grants and scholarships are for. Though I have taken a couple small student loans in my life, I never will again. A first mortgage is an understandable debt, as is some of a car loan and possibly small school loans. You have to be smart about it though.

As far as I'm concerned, living well includes insurance and savings for retirement and emergencies. And you shouldn't have to count on birthdays, Christmas, or poker games to buy yourself a new set of tires or whatever other unplanned expenses come up.

 

Eeezee

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2005
9,922
0
0
I don't think it should depend on income. A high income will just help you become rich more quickly.

If you have $2 million in cash, you can retire comfortably and live off of the interest, even at only 2%. Thus, you're rich if you have $2 million in cash.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: ABitTooSpicy
When your passive income... (income you don't have to lift a finger for... investments etc.) outweigh ALL your expenses. You are then as rich as humanly necessary...

:)

pretty much this imo.

personally, in my lacal area (eastern ND) i would break it up like this for a single person:

0-20k poor
20-35k working class
35k+ middle class

rich people don't have to work to get by.