AT&T gives up

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GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
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As a TMO customer, I am elated this did not go through. I am truly surprised!

As someone who spends about 2 months a year in Germany, I can confirm that they pay less per month for better service than what we are offered in the US.

Americans need to wake up and see how much their country is falling in SO MANY ways. The home of free market capitalism working to supply the demand with better service at lower costs: my ass!

America is all about collusion now. Collusion controlled by oligarchs!
 

EightySix Four

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2004
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As someone who spends about 2 months a year in Germany, I can confirm that they pay less per month for better service than what we are offered in the US.

Way easier to cover 137,847 mi^2 compared to 3,719,000 mi^2. On top of that, for every square mile of coverage in Germany there is an average of 610 people compared to the United States where every square mile has, on average, ~87 people. This means ROI in German telecommunications is dramatically higher than in the U.S.

Policy has something to do with it of course, but don't overstate it. The U.S. has a number of disadvantages beyond crappy elected officials.
 
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Munky

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2005
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I don't give a crap about fragmentation. I do give a crap about what ATT will do to my wallet if they were the only major GSM carrier in the country.
 

pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
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maybe for single people but if you're buying a phone for yourself and kids no one in their right mind will spend $2000 outright for a few smartphones

They aren't that expensive. You can get a decent Android smartphone in the UK, unlocked and contract free for less than $400.
http://www.carphonewarehouse.com/mo...terAvail=HANDSET&filterFeatures=PHONE_ANDROID

Click "SIM Free" and then multiply prices by 1.5x to get US dollars. Unless you have more than 5 kids, you aren't going to be dropping $2000.

Besides people who aren't insane give their kids used phones.

I gave my teenage daughter a 1st gen iPhone that someone had cracked the screen on that I bought $50, she and I fixed the screen together for $10. Total cost was $60 and she has a decent - if old - smartphone that she is very happy with. I stuck her on a data-less T-Mobile prepaid plan and she uses WiFi at home and school.


Way easier to cover 137,847 mi^2 compared to 3,719,000 mi^2. On top of that, for every square mile of coverage in Germany there is an average of 610 people compared to the United States where every square mile has, on average, ~87 people. This means ROI in German telecommunications is dramatically higher than in the U.S.

Policy has something to do with it of course, but don't overstate it. The U.S. has a number of disadvantages beyond crappy elected officials.

Yeah, but you are overstating it too. First you included Alaska... which is clearly part of the US, but have you seen the coverage map for Alaska? Even in the continental US, where I live I can drive 30 minutes east or west, or about 70 minutes north and I'll lose all service on all providers except maybe a sliver when I'm lucky. Yes, I live in Colorado and west is the Rockies, east is a huge chunk of "National Grasslands" and north is Wyoming. But while my situation is unusual, you are quoting the total landmass of the US and implying that all of it has cell phone coverage.... which is definitely not true. The maps the carriers give show big areas of no coverage, and they are often less than trustworthy.

So you are saying it's a lot harder to provide service over a larger and more unpopulated area, and this is true, but it only seems like a valid argument to me if they are actually covering that area with service. And they aren't. I've been in Russia and Australia and New Zealand - all countries with a lot of space and not a lot of people in large portions of them - and I got cheaper service while I was there. Particularly Russia.
 
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alent1234

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2002
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the way things are now if i had kids old enough for phones i give them 3GS for free on contract. sell my old phone for $200 or so and get a new 4S and it comes out free for me.
if i give my kids hand me downs then i have to buy a new phone for myself and my wife
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
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Yay, I am happy about this because I plan to switch to Sprint one day and if this went through they were doomed.
 
Feb 19, 2001
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The thing is T-Mobile has always been riding as the underdog and having "cheap plans." None of this is going to stop how VZW and AT&T price. They had even pricing across the board til they switched to tiered data and had slightly different rates. T-Mobile's low rates havent caused AT&T or Verizon to lower theirs. 7 years ago I was signing up for the same 450 minutes @ $39.99 plans. The fact that T-Mobile offered 600 minutes or 1000 minutes for the same price didn't change a thing. It's like Pepsi and Coke. These oligopolies price their products to match each other. No one gives a crap that Safeway brand cola is half the price because they aren't a major factor to begin with.

If anything, having T-Mobile around means the 1700 AWS band is segmented off from 850/1900. The reason I wanted this merger to go through was so we could have a unified GSM infrastructure. I'm not sure what AT&T would've done with the 1700 band, but something tells me we probably would've migrated more to 850/1900 since that's a standard for North America and South America.

I do care about fragmentation because while every other country out there allows for unlocked phones to be transported across carrier, we in the US are stuck with 4 giant carriers, 2 of which use interoperable technologies (except for their 4G), but refuse to allow phones to cross over. The other 2 GSM providers (ATT and T-Mobile) use different frequencies which prevent you from getting 3G access on both.

Much of the idea of cell phones in this country is tied to the carrier. It's like if Comcast and AT&T and Verizon forced you to buy their prebuilt computer for internet access. It makes no sense. Instead of waiting for companies to release phones, we're waiting for them to become available on certain carriers. Exclusivity is fine and all that, but while other users in Europe and Asia just buy the phone and bring it to their own carrier, we're here worrying about whether a SGS2 will land on Verizon or not.

It's a waste of company resources to develop a branded phone. It would save Samsung and the carrier some money if we didn't have to have a special AT&T, Sprint, and T-Mobile SGS2.

So yes, I'm all for ending this fragmentation bullshit. It's the same reason why I'm on AT&T. IT gives me the best opportunity to bring in unlocked phones and to use my phone anywhere in the world. So yes, I would've preferred unification in the GSM world in the US.
 

Munky

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2005
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That's a problem with phones you're using. My Nokia N8 has no problem working on all 5 HSPA bands worldwide because they actually bothered to put pentaband antenna into their phone, as opposed to the usual carrier-specific crap phone makers install.
 
Dec 30, 2004
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I was completely opposed to the merger on the basis that this country needs more carriers, not fewer. I travel internationally a fair bit and having been around, I think the US (and Canada) have two of the worst cell phone systems that I've seen in terms of what you get for what you pay for, particularly in terms of text messages and data (voice actually isn't too bad). You could say that it's because of the size of the country, but other large countries like Russia and Australia have less expensive data, texting and voice plans and prepaid than the US.

The first time that I remember thinking that we already have too few carriers in the US was when Sprint raised it's per-message texting rate from $0.10 per message to $0.20 per message several years ago... and then within days or weeks AT&T and Verizon did the same, and soon after T-Mobile did as well. So the question is, what caused this rate increase, and why did all of the other carriers feel justified in increasing their rates as well. In the airline industry, I see airlines do this - they will all raise rates - and then you'll see one carrier say "no, we are sticking to our current pricing" and the other airlines with back down on their rate increase or not. To me, this is something closer to a free market system. But with cell phones, if one carrier decides that the minimum number of minutes on their plan is going up from $30/month for 300 minutes to $40/month for is 400 minutes, then all of the others change so that their plans match... with the occasional exception of T-Mobile.

Price out a phone, data and texting plan and you will see that there is very little difference between the carriers and that this difference has not really changed over time - when one raises rates, the other do too. I think we need two or three more nationwide cell phone carriers, instead of one less.

In particular, T-Mobile is one of the better prepaid and bring-you-own-phone vendors. You can get an calling and unlimited texting plan from them for $15/month - that's it... $15 total and you can get you teenager a phone without having to add them to your plan and worry about them blowing your bill away because they are silly.

To me, the net benifit of an AT&T/T-Mobile merger was in favor of AT&T as a company. They gain T-Mobile's customers and towers, they gain T-Mobile's spectrum, on a system that is fairly compatible with their own. And for this, they pay an amount that is really not too expensive compared to what these things are separately. From a customer's perspective, the customers gets better service, but we lose a competitor to keep prices down.

I personally thought that it was a net loss from the consumer's perspective, and I wrote several letters to my senators, and my congressional representative. I attended a Q&A session with my congressperson and asked them about the merger. I wrote a comment letter of opposition to the FCC, and I wrote letters to the editors, signed petitions, and was quoted in the Denver Post. I think this is a good thing and I can't think of any other carrier or company that would be a bad merger for T-Mobile except for Verizon and so I look forward to seeing what happens next with a feeling that anything that happens is likely to be better for T-Mobile customers, and the US cell phone market, than AT&T and T-Mobile combined.

solid post and thanks for taking the time to get involved in ways we're all too lazy to bother with.
What you're describing in your 2nd paragraph is called "oligopoly". It exists with < 5 market participants and they "collude" on pricing and features as you are seeing.

Now that the T-mobile deal is out I will consider switching to them, though more likely I'll jump onto Straightalk with whatever Android phone I get next.
 

pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
7,419
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For what it's worth, this is the Denver Post article. http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_18769455 I noticed that the article was syndicated all over the country so it ended up in lots of other papers - although the reporter worked for the Denver Post.

Patrick Mahoney => pm => me :)

And thanks, soccerballtux. :) I will say that I see lots of people say that we don't really live in a democracy any more, and that regular people can't make a difference and the corporations run everything... but in my very limited experience this really isn't true. I'm not saying that I had anything to do with the FCC's decision... I'm just one little guy in a very large country. But I will say that lots of little guys speaking up have a power that I'm consistently amazed to see in action.

Right now, I'm involved in the anti-SOPA effort, and once again, a whole lot of people speaking up are seeming to make a difference. Or maybe our corporate masters are just letting us think so.
 
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