Israeli civilians and Palestinian civilians are the true victims in this quigmire. Both are victims of the policies of their respective governments, the irrational extremists (on both sides), and the neighboring arabs.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
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you forget, the israelis sometimes use ground troops when they could use bombs because it would spare more lives. they pay dearly for it with many soldiers dying from palestinian gunmen and booby trapped houses filled with explosives.
frankly they are better then i, i'd just carpet bomb the palestinians after a suicide bombing like how we bombed hitlers country. they deserve it. if you feel that gloves are off for suicide bombers trying to maximize civililian deaths with their prime target being citizens, men women and children, how you can bother complaining about precision strikes with small bombs i dunno. yes..small. whats a big bomb?
i'd drop some 15k daisy cutters on them.
the sheer desperation in arguement of the palestinian side is incredible, comparing precision strikes to a nazi death camp? either thats ignorance, or religious brain washing. no logic possible i guess. such intellectually dishonest statements are insulting to all.
but i guess thats considered the norm in the middle east.
earthman
Golden Member
- Oct 16, 1999
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Do you realize how much of a dehumanized asshole you have to become to really believe something like that?
Do you think all Palestinians are the same? Do you think they all want to kill people? Do you really think the average person there can do anything to stop armed gangs of fanatics?
Do you think they all want to live in a refugee camp, under what amounts to martial law? Do you think they don't have the right to live in their own nation, with their own traditions and culture intact, with control over thier own destiny?
Maybe you should educate yourself on the history of Palestine. The Jewish state was imposed on the area of Palestine by an outside mandate, and its citizens mainly brought in from Europe without the consent of the local population, and the question of what land would be a Palestinian state or what it would consist of has never been seriously addressed, primarily because Israel has no interest in there ever being one at this point, and has trampled over the land and people that would comprise it. It is Israel that has created the present situation, not the Palestinians.
I love how people are quick to condemn "homicide bombings" but ignore incidents where the Israeli military launches missiles into residential areas or shoots children for throwing rocks. Suicide attacks are barbaric and pointless, but an increasing segment of the population feels they are the only option left, as there is no real future under Israeli occupation.
What was to be the state of Palestine was laid out by the mandate.
Israel created a state and a nation. The Arabs attacked. Sucks to lose a war that you started.
I suppose my point is that you left out the word, civilian, when you made the statement "...the death toll is far greater on the Palestinian side, and always has been." Because while I agree the death toll on the Arab side has been greater than the Israeli side in this conflict, the civilian casualties have been greater on the Israeli side than on the Arab side. And that by leaving out the word civilian in your response, you implied that civilians and non-civilians are the same, and they are not.
D
earthman
Golden Member
- Oct 16, 1999
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Whose mandate? Palestine was ruled by the British under an old League of Nations agreement. The actual residents of Palestine (mostly arabs, in case you didn't know) were not seriously consulted. The mandate called for a partition into two states, jewish and arab. The jews agreed, the arabs didn't. Why should they? It was their land.
Of course they attacked. If a million outsiders showed up and created a country here we'd attack too. Its called an invasion. Just because somebody "wins" a war doesn't make something right. I suppose you think because the US Army once slaughtered a million Indians it shows that they were wrong to defend their land and culture and deserved to die.
earthman
If you believe the UN just one day decided to give the Jews some land for no reason than I will reply to you like I have many others.
Study some history of the region please.
If you believe the UN just one day decided to give the Jews some land for no reason than I will reply to you like I have many others.
Study some history of the region please.
earthman
Golden Member
- Oct 16, 1999
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If you think that they should have got it because it was "theirs" in biblical times or because they were brutalized by the Nazis or for whatever other reason it doesn't matter. You can't create a country where there already is one, with people who have been living there for centuries, without starting a war. That war is going on till this day.
May I suggest you start your studies of the region with the Jerusalem and Jaffa riots of 1920. It appears that you really don't know that much about the history of the region or you would not have given those examples.
Don't forget the Haycraft Commission report.
Work you way through the Balfour declaration and the White Paper.
Then tell me who the ruler of Palestine was. What were the boundries of the country of Palestine? What was it's flag and so forth.
Then research the incident called "Black September" and tell me about a people trying to take a country over.
Hagbard, you should read up on that also.
earthman
Golden Member
- Oct 16, 1999
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I don't follow your logic at all.
The area was formerly ruled by the Ottoman Empire and taken by Britain after WWI. I consider it a colonial area that was not allowed to have any self-determination. The fact that there was no organized state there doesn't mean its acceptable to create one by fiat for a specific religeous/cultural group...especially by Britain, a nation with a shameful record of exploiting and repressing its colonies.
The Jaffa riots were by arabs opposed to jewish immigration and zionism in general. They were triggered by a demonstration of Bolshevik jews and turned into a general anti-jewish violent period. Intolerance by one group doesn't make acceptable intolerance by another. Arguably, if jewish immigrants weren't showing up by the thousands from Europe (where the hypocritical intolerance of european populations made them unwelcome...i.e. proto-Nazi Germany) there wouldn't have been so much tension.
The Balfour declaration of 1917 was by the British government in support of a jewish homeland in Palestine.
Your apparent agument seems to support my view that zionism was wrong and no state should have been created there for specific ethnic groups.
What business did Britain have in creating a selective state for anybody there? And what do riots 80 years ago have to do with the validity or not of Israel?
And for those that don't know, "Black September" was the period in 1970 when Palestinians essentially attempted to take over Jordan, a country where many of them had been forced to go by the various Arab-Israeli wars, a country where they were not wanted and where they were and are discriminated against. Also, a totally undemocratic country (then and now) which still has a poor human rights record.
The area was formerly ruled by the Ottoman Empire and taken by Britain after WWI. I consider it a colonial area that was not allowed to have any self-determination. The fact that there was no organized state there doesn't mean its acceptable to create one by fiat for a specific religeous/cultural group...especially by Britain, a nation with a shameful record of exploiting and repressing its colonies.
The Jaffa riots were by arabs opposed to jewish immigration and zionism in general. They were triggered by a demonstration of Bolshevik jews and turned into a general anti-jewish violent period. Intolerance by one group doesn't make acceptable intolerance by another. Arguably, if jewish immigrants weren't showing up by the thousands from Europe (where the hypocritical intolerance of european populations made them unwelcome...i.e. proto-Nazi Germany) there wouldn't have been so much tension.
The Balfour declaration of 1917 was by the British government in support of a jewish homeland in Palestine.
Your apparent agument seems to support my view that zionism was wrong and no state should have been created there for specific ethnic groups.
What business did Britain have in creating a selective state for anybody there? And what do riots 80 years ago have to do with the validity or not of Israel?
And for those that don't know, "Black September" was the period in 1970 when Palestinians essentially attempted to take over Jordan, a country where many of them had been forced to go by the various Arab-Israeli wars, a country where they were not wanted and where they were and are discriminated against. Also, a totally undemocratic country (then and now) which still has a poor human rights record.
The Balfour declaration of 1917 was by the British government in support of a jewish homeland in Palestine.
It was signed by Turkey(ottoman empire) and to what extent there was the rulers of Palestine.
I agree it would have been simpler had the Jews found some other place for their homeland. It would also have been simpler if the Arabs had not turned out to be so bloody racist about the whole situation and started rioting and killing.
In any case the past cannot be changed. The Jews are not leaving Israel and there will have to be some sort of compromise. But as long as the Palestinians are used by the Arab leaders as scrapegoats and the Jews and the US are said to be the root of every problem in the Middle East the situation will not get any better.
It was signed by Turkey(ottoman empire) and to what extent there was the rulers of Palestine.
I agree it would have been simpler had the Jews found some other place for their homeland. It would also have been simpler if the Arabs had not turned out to be so bloody racist about the whole situation and started rioting and killing.
In any case the past cannot be changed. The Jews are not leaving Israel and there will have to be some sort of compromise. But as long as the Palestinians are used by the Arab leaders as scrapegoats and the Jews and the US are said to be the root of every problem in the Middle East the situation will not get any better.
earthman
Golden Member
- Oct 16, 1999
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I'm still waiting for an explanation from somebody about why the Jews, or any other religeous group would be entitled to an exclusive "homeland"???
Because some were driven out of Biblical Palestine by the Romans, or a thousand years later by the Crusaders? My ancestors were driven off their land in ethnic Polish areas of Prussia, where is my "homeland"? I've known alot of Native Americans who have no "homeland"...what part of Manhattan or downtown Chicago or your back yard can we have for our "homeland"? How far are we supposed to extend this ridiculous logic?
Because some were driven out of Biblical Palestine by the Romans, or a thousand years later by the Crusaders? My ancestors were driven off their land in ethnic Polish areas of Prussia, where is my "homeland"? I've known alot of Native Americans who have no "homeland"...what part of Manhattan or downtown Chicago or your back yard can we have for our "homeland"? How far are we supposed to extend this ridiculous logic?
Why argue about it? They are there and they are staying.
Perhaps time would be better spent in discussing ways for both sides to live in peace.
Perhaps time would be better spent in discussing ways for both sides to live in peace.
When the palestinians persist in blowing up innocent civilians I must agree with you. The chances for peace look quite grim.
How do you think they'd react?? What if they choose West Virginia for their homeland, you don't think the local "racists" would have a problem with that?
If you weren't so racist yourself, you'd have a point here.
hagbard
If you haven't noticed the US does welcome immigrants from all over the world. Calif. is projected to become majority Hispanic in a number of years. There have probably been some incidents but I haven't heard of any suicide bombers blowing up Hispanics.
"If you weren't so racist yourself, you'd have a point here.
"
I do hate people that throw that term around and think that it makes them look like a big man. It just shows that you are a little punk that can't come up with any logical reasoning so you resort to the racist card. Fvck off twerp. I am not racist and am tired of little idiots like you trotting it out whenever you can't think of anything intelligent to post.
If you haven't noticed the US does welcome immigrants from all over the world. Calif. is projected to become majority Hispanic in a number of years. There have probably been some incidents but I haven't heard of any suicide bombers blowing up Hispanics.
"If you weren't so racist yourself, you'd have a point here.
"
I do hate people that throw that term around and think that it makes them look like a big man. It just shows that you are a little punk that can't come up with any logical reasoning so you resort to the racist card. Fvck off twerp. I am not racist and am tired of little idiots like you trotting it out whenever you can't think of anything intelligent to post.
What's your point?
Be more specific, the Balfour declaration of 1917 or 1926? Which White Paper?? Churchill ('22), Passfield ('30) or Macdonald ('39). And what's your point?
Hey, what colour is my underwear?
No thanks.
Which is exactly what your doing.
Look at your posting above, you brought out the racist card by calling the Arabs racists when you yourself are one.
Pot, kettle, black.
So the fact that not everyone has their homeland means the Jews can't have theirs ?
Nice logic there.
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