ASRock Z97 Extreme9 Ultra M.2 x4 and PCIe lanes

[Insert_Nickname]

My understanding is quite limited to pci lanes which I find a lil confusing...
So with Z97 deluxe and with both the scenario I have given above, no matter what configuration of the two I do, my GPU will slow down to 8x Right ?

Yes. But it's really a non-issue having the GPU run at PCIe 3.0 x8. It'll have the same bandwidth as a full PCIe 2.0 x16 slot after all, and besides, as several tests show, you're only losing ~1% performance...

If thts the case then I guess I am stuck with M.2 slot (x2) with max transfer of 1,000MB/s and wont be able to take advantage of near futures ultra fast M.2 drives

You could always look at the Asrock Z97 Extreme6. It has a PCIe 3.0 x4 M.2 slot using the CPU lines, so its good for 4GB/s...

Or wait for Skylake. Rumour has it that Skylakes PCH is fully PCIe 3.0 compatible.

 

[craige4u]

Yes. But it's really a non-issue having the GPU run at PCIe 3.0 x8. It'll have the same bandwidth as a full PCIe 2.0 x16 slot after all, and besides, as several tests show, you're only losing ~1% performance...

You could always look at the Asrock Z97 Extreme6. It has a PCIe 3.0 x4 M.2 slot using the CPU lines, so its good for 4GB/s...

Or wait for Skylake. Rumour has it that Skylakes PCH is fully PCIe 3.0 compatible.

Yes I have read exactly what you are saying, but am targeting future GPU with 6GB+ onboard memory, maybe they will require all the lanes !?

Delayed my PC for 6months+ and I have to upgrade now and yes you are right skylake will be having 20 Pci Lanes.

I really don't like Asrock Z97 Extreme6 and some features tht I want... Maybe I will go with Asus Z97-WS it has PLX Chip.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Yes I have read exactly what you are saying, but am targeting future GPU with 6GB+ onboard memory, maybe they will require all the lanes !?

If a GTX780TI 6GB is anything to go by, the answer would be "no". Unless you're running some serious GPU compute on the side. In that case, you'll need all the PCIe bandwidth you can get...

Delayed my PC for 6months+ and I have to upgrade now and yes you are right skylake will be having 20 Pci Lanes.

I really don't like Asrock Z97 Extreme6 and some features tht I want... Maybe I will go with Asus Z97-WS it has PLX Chip.

More likely 16 for graphics and 4 for the DMI link. As for the Z97-WS, its an excellent, if expensive, board. But using a PLX-chip has its own issues.

If you can delay a bit, and want to be 100% sure that you'll have all the PCIe lines you need, you could check out the X99-platform. Even the 5820K should have 28 lines from the CPU and minimum 8 from the chipset.

 

[craige4u]

Mate, somebody told me all M.2 x4 forthcoming drives are PCI 2.0 only.

So, even if I install an x4 M.2 SSD in my Mobo, my GPU will continue to run at x16 because the motherboard is PCIE x16 3.0!

How true is that ?

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Mate, somebody told me all M.2 x4 forthcoming drives are PCI 2.0 only.

Nope. Samsung just launched the SM951 after all. An M.2 PCIe 3.0 x4 drive...

Though I suppose most value drives will be PCIe 2.0 x2 at first. Most high-end drives will likely use the LSI/Sandforce SF3700 PCIe 2.0 x4 controller. There you can already see the first problem as most H/Z97 boards only have an M.2 PCIe 2.0 x2 slot.

So, even if I install an x4 M.2 SSD in my Mobo, my GPU will continue to run at x16 because the motherboard is PCIE x16 3.0!

How true is that ?

Again, no. PCIe lines don't work like that. You have a finite number that can run at a given speed (1(.1), 2.0, 3.0). Individual lines can then be configured as needed (so long as its in powers of 2. F.x. x1, x2, x4, x8 or x16 slots are valid, but a x3 slot isn't). But all PCIe lines are fully backward compatible, that means f.x. a 3.0 slot has no problems running in 2.0 mode, but a 2.0 slot cannot run at 3.0 speeds...

Hope that makes sense.

 

[voodoo7817]

Here's a page from Anandtech's review of the ASRock Z97 Extreme6 mobo that discusses how PCIe lanes work in regards to using the Ultra M.2 slot: http://www.anandtech.com/show/8045/asrock-z97-extreme6-review-ultra-m2-x4-tested-with-xp941/11. I'm fairly certain the Extreme9 will work in the same way.

My understanding is that as long as you aren't running SLI/Crossfire, PCIe x8 is more than enough lanes to get the full performance of any single-card GPU while using a PCIe 3.0 M.2 SSD in the Ultra slot. But I'm not 100% positive on that. And even with SLI, the performance downgrade doesn't appear to be huge. They do state that if you are running a 4K monitor or multi-monitor setup, you might see more of a performance drop, but that wasn't tested in that review.

If you think that you might want to go SLI or are concerned about the number of PCIe lanes, the new Haswell-E platform, as InsertNickname said, has a fair amount more PCIe lanes and might be a better bet for you. But I think that it's fair to say that PCIe x8 will be enough lanes to power most single-card GPU that come out within the next couple of years (I will probably pick up an Nvidia 870 or whatever the AMD equivalent is in the next 6 months). But I'll admit that's a bit of conjecture, so someone please let me know if you disagree.

 

[craige4u]

Nope. Samsung just launched the SM951 after all. An M.2 PCIe 3.0 x4 drive...

Hehe yes! I missed this news....

Anyways sry for the delayed response as I have been reading left & right shortlisting all my components and gathering all the required info.

I also read all reviews of Z97 Deluxe and I agree what u said tht my GPU will run at x8 if I ever need and put an x4 Pcie M.2 card.

Now, I just have one last question is - If I use the integrated M.2 slot (x2) on the Mobo will I downgrade my GPU to x8 as well !?

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Now, I just have one last question is - If I use the integrated M.2 slot (x2) on the Mobo will I downgrade my GPU to x8 as well !?

No, since that slot comes from the PCH. So there shouldn't be any problems.

 

[craige4u]

No, since that slot comes from the PCH. So there shouldn't be any problems.

Mate you have been very helpful throughout my queries and I really thankyou for that.

Cheers

 

[TUCANUS]

Hello !

I am having a very very hard time in installing SAMSUNG XP941 ON EITHER MY asus z97 deluxe and asrock z97 extreme9. I have SAMSUNG 512GM M.S MZHPU512HCGL-00000 which I bought from newegg, but I cannot install windows 8.1 as boot drive on both motherboards.

Both motherboards can see the drive and windows install can see it, but when I try to install, WINDOWS says that " WINDOWS CANNOT BE INSTALLED TO THIS DISK. This computer hardware may not support booting from this disk. Ensure that disk's controller is enabled in computer bios menu. " Which this has been done.

Is there any solution ? I called Samsung and they will not support as they said its OEM part. I need to finish building my system ! Please help anyone.

 

[Burpo]

Someone else here had a similar problem and ended up having to delete the partition of the M.2 drive first.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Hello !

I am having a very very hard time in installing SAMSUNG XP941 ON EITHER MY asus z97 deluxe and asrock z97 extreme9. I have SAMSUNG 512GM M.S MZHPU512HCGL-00000 which I bought from newegg, but I cannot install windows 8.1 as boot drive on both motherboards.

Both motherboards can see the drive and windows install can see it, but when I try to install, WINDOWS says that " WINDOWS CANNOT BE INSTALLED TO THIS DISK. This computer hardware may not support booting from this disk. Ensure that disk's controller is enabled in computer bios menu. " Which this has been done.

Is there any solution ? I called Samsung and they will not support as they said its OEM part. I need to finish building my system ! Please help anyone.

Someone else here had a similar problem and ended up having to delete the partition of the M.2 drive first.

Its usually better to start a new thread about such things, so your posts don't get buried in an old thread.

Your problem does not have anything to do with the XP941 or your mainboard. Burpo actually nailed it on the head, you need to use a clean, non-partioned drive. You're properly trying to install Windows in UEFI mode, which won't work with an MBR partion table already on the drive (which is likely the factory default). You'll get the exact same error with a regular SATA drive actually.

To get it to work as a bootdrive, you need to delete the MBR partion table from a different PC with an M.2 slot (Or a Linux boot cd/dvd). When you've done this plug it into the PC in question, then install Windows normally. Or you can install Windows in "Legacy" mode, but some of the advanced features of UEFI mode will be unavailable.

Oh, and welcome to the forum...

 

[TUCANUS]

HI. ! Thanks for the reply.

Sorry for not starting a new thread. But I do not have a different pc with M.2 SLOT. So how do I make a LINUX boot cd so I can delete and try to install windows ?

Thanks for your help !

 

[Burpo]

Bootable USB..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFeri7UiYNs

Bootable CD
http://vimeo.com/94879979

Or you can use KillDisk to wipe it.. Bootable ISO Image for DOS:
http://www.killdisk.com/downloadfree.htm

 

[TUCANUS]

Hello Burpo. Thanks for help. But again, I tried both bootable usb and cd and also killdisk. Either I am out of this world and I do not know what I am doing but I cannot wipe the SAMSUNG drive. Any possibility for step by step instruction, as I am having a very hard time.

Thanks again

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Any possibility for step by step instruction, as I am having a very hard time.

If you have a spare HDD available, just install Windows temporarily on it, don't register it online. You'll need a generic key, just google "windows 8.1 (version) generic key" to find one that fits your version. You don't need to install drivers or anything, you just need raw Windows.

When done, enter Control Panel > Administration > Computeradministration. Then logical disk manager. You should see a list of currently installed drives. You then need to figure out which one is the XP941, should be easy enough. Then right-click on the Disk0/1/2 or whichever is the XP941. Select "Convert to GPT disk". Done.

Shutdown the computer, and remove the drive you temporarily installed Windows on. Just to be sure remove all drives other then the XP941. Windows can be slightly retarded in where it places the boot manger, better safe then sorry.

You should now be able to install Windows normally.

(Note please that I'm on a Danish Windows version, so the above might not be a 100% accurate translation. Unfortunately I don't have an English version available to check currently... )

 

[TUCANUS]

Thank you everyone ! But again, I have tried:

a) I have wiped the drive
b) I have converted to GPT disk
but when I boot from windows cd to install, windows can see t ,but when I select the disk, it does not work. It says again " WINDOWS CANNOT BE INSTALLED TO THIS DISK. THIS COMPUTER HARDWARE MAY NOT SUPPORT BOTTING TO THIS DISK. ENSURE THAT DISK'S CONTROLLER IS ENABLED I THE COMPUTER BIO'S MENU".

I do not know how to proceed. Please help !!!!!

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Thank you everyone ! But again, I have tried:

a) I have wiped the drive
b) I have converted to GPT disk
but when I boot from windows cd to install, windows can see t ,but when I select the disk, it does not work. It says again " WINDOWS CANNOT BE INSTALLED TO THIS DISK. THIS COMPUTER HARDWARE MAY NOT SUPPORT BOTTING TO THIS DISK. ENSURE THAT DISK'S CONTROLLER IS ENABLED I THE COMPUTER BIO'S MENU".

I do not know how to proceed. Please help !!!!!

Well, if you've the above, the only thing I can think of is that you've -somehow- set the UEFI/BIOS to legacy mode.

When you set "Boot Option #1" (under the "Boot" menu in your BIOS) or override the boot device in the BIOS, you need to make sure that its set to "UEFI: (device)" for your DVD drive, if you use the other option you're trying to install Windows in legacy mode on a GPT disk. Which won't work.

If that doesn't work, then I'm out of ideas...

 

[Prplxt]

New here. Super helpful place thanks.

Anyway. So it's my understanding that using a x4 m.2 ssd in the ultra slot will make the "second" gpu pcie slot run at 4x rather than 8x so it's not possible to run sli because while the first gpu slot will get 8x the second will drop to 4x and will not work due to the nvidia requirement that all cards get 8x, correct?

So...

I was hoping the the asrock z97 extreme9, with its plx chip would support a x4 m.2 ssd (such as the sm951) with two GPUs in SLI running at 8x just fine?

Put differently... If I wanted to build a system with only two video cards in SLI and a x4 m.2 PCIe SSD as the sole drive in the Ultra slot the asrock z97 extreme9 would be a good choice? True?

Again thanks!

 

[Insert_Nickname]

New here. Super helpful place thanks.

Anyway. So it's my understanding that using a x4 m.2 ssd in the ultra slot will make the "second" gpu pcie slot run at 4x rather than 8x so it's not possible to run sli because while the first gpu slot will get 8x the second will drop to 4x and will not work due to the nvidia requirement that all cards get 8x, correct?

For the Extreme9, no. For the Extreme6, yes.

The Extreme9 has a PLX chip to alleviate the "lack" of PCIe lanes.

Put differently... If I wanted to build a system with only two video cards in SLI and a x4 m.2 PCIe SSD as the sole drive in the Ultra slot the asrock z97 extreme9 would be a good choice? True?

Whichever way you put it, the LGA-1150 platform will always be handicapped by the fact that it only has 16 lanes coming from the CPU. There is no way around that, as its a hardware limitation.

If you're serious about such a high-end SLI platform, wait and see what Haswell-E has to offer before you purchase.

 

[Prplxt]

If you're serious about such a high-end SLI platform, wait and see what Haswell-E has to offer before you purchase.

To be clear I'm really not interested in such a high-end SLI platform (not 4 of 'em to start off). More interested in just running two SLI GPUs and a sm951 at the same time.

I'm gathering that the x99 chip in an asrock x99 extreme6 will allow the GPUs in the above scenario with a sm951 in the ultra slot to BOTH run at 16x. True? Or is it 16x and 8x?

Similarly the z97 chip in a asrock extreme9 would allow the GPUs in the same scenario both run at 8x.

I've read that running a good gpu at 8x is only very slightly impacted over running it at 16x.

Would it not stand to reason that in this scenario the x99 is not worth the added cost? Unless the ancillary benefits are just too good to ignore... New memory type, more cores, future expansion capability, etc...?

 

[Insert_Nickname]

To be clear I'm really not interested in such a high-end SLI platform (not 4 of 'em to start off). More interested in just running two SLI GPUs and a sm951 at the same time.

I'm gathering that the x99 chip in an asrock x99 extreme6 will allow the GPUs in the above scenario with a sm951 in the ultra slot to BOTH run at 16x. True? Or is it 16x and 8x?

Similarly the z97 chip in a asrock extreme9 would allow the GPUs in the same scenario both run at 8x.

I've read that running a good gpu at 8x is only very slightly impacted over running it at 16x.

Complex questions require complex answers...

The number of PCIe lanes on the X99 platform will depend on which CPU you use it with. The "entry"-level 5820K apparently "only" has 28 lanes (Which is still 12 lanes more then the mainstream LGA-1150 platform). Which will limit a multi GPU + PCIe SSD to a 16x/8x/4x setup (or 8x/8x/4x for SLI, since lane counts have to be symmetrical). The higher-end 5930K and 5960X will have the full complement of 40x PCIe lanes from the CPU (i.e. 16x/16x/8x).

You're quite right that the performance penalty running a GPU at 8x is negligible. But the Extreme9 actually allows both GPUs to run at 16x because of the PLX chip. With the caveat that both will share a single 16x connection to the CPU. When you use an SSD in the "Ultra" slot it drops to 12x(?) due to the slot using a PCIe splitter.

So in short there will be -some- performance penalty on the Extreme9 using multiple GPUs + an SSD. Its just a question of how large it is.

Would it not stand to reason that in this scenario the x99 is not worth the added cost? Unless the ancillary benefits are just too good to ignore... New memory type, more cores, future expansion capability, etc...?

With the release of the 4790K, Intel has really thrown a spanner in the works. Most games are dependant (at least in part) on single-thread performance, and Haswell-E will be quite low-clocked. For a Haswell anyway. So for a pure gaming system, the pure frequency advantage of the 4790K (500MHz/900MHz turbo) will properly nullify any PCIe lane and number of cores deficiencies.

BTW, there is nothing "wrong" with choosing a 4790K+Extreme9 setup, one just has to be aware of its "limitations". But with the Haswell-E launch so close, waiting a few weeks to see what it has to offer can't hurt anyone. We don't know how well Haswell-E will OC f.x.

 

[Prplxt]

You're quite right that the performance penalty running a GPU at 8x is negligible. But the Extreme9 actually allows both GPUs to run at 16x because of the PLX chip. With the caveat that both will share a single 16x connection to the CPU. When you use an SSD in the "Ultra" slot it drops to 12x(?) due to the slot using a PCIe splitter.

Sorry I'm so ignorant. This is good stuff! So what is the impact of having two GPUs sharing a single 16x connection to the CPU? How has that condition affected current generation SLI setups?

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Sorry I'm so ignorant. This is good stuff! So what is the impact of having two GPUs sharing a single 16x connection to the CPU? How has that condition affected current generation SLI setups?

Very minimally. Somewhere on the order of 1% less performance, if any.

Anandtech's Ian Cutress did a very good piece on SLI/Crossfire CPU scaling last year. Highly recommended:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6934/choosing-a-gaming-cpu-single-multigpu-at-1440p

 

[Prplxt]

Tom petty said it best!

Keep in mind it not just the wait for product release. It's also the wait for the review and the comparison.

I'm still waiting on an asrock z97 extreme9 review. No love yet.

You have been super helpful.

The clock speed alone and the cost savings will likely seal the deal if I'm only going for a two gpu setup.

'Course in my insomniac haze last night I started obsessing over which super thin bezel is actually the thinnest for use in a three monitor setup! Maybe I need more than two GPUs!