Asian manufacturing - unfair, but superior

[moonbogg]

No one can argue that China is not a leading power or will not be a leading power in the upcoming century. But dreams of domination are naive considering the issues China faces:

- massive income inequality (this never stopped America)
- massive state supported debt (esp regional/local) (See above)
- huge environmental damage and shrinking arable land (So?)
- falling fertility rates and an aging population (just like the rest of Asia, though not quite as bad) (no lack of people in china)
- huge oil dependency (They will TAKE IT from the ME)
- ethnic unrest (who doesn't have that?)
- military that can only be deployed locally - no ability to project conventional power outside their borders or local waters (So far. That's changing fast.)

The US has its own challenges, but dreams of a Chinese hegemony are stupid. Reality is likely more complicated - in 20-30 years, no country having US-type sole, global leadership anymore.

I little resistance to a Chinese hegemony.

 

[moonbogg]

Living in the nuclear age, I doubt that China will do shit except to try to bankrupt everyone else.

That's good enough. Nothing stopping them from bullying the little guys. You ever play Civilization on PC? There's more than one way to win, and economic domination is just as significant as winning a world war.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

You wouldn't buy an 'American Made' car or one produced by 'American Companies'?

I would not buy a car made in America by an American company. Ford, Chevy, Chrysler made in USA are all shit. As for cars of mixed-pedigree like Hondas built in the USA or Fords built in Korea I'll decide on a case-by-case basis, but I'll probably avoid most of those too. My last couple of cars have been Hondas made in Japan and they have been utterly and unfailingly bulletproof, so my next car will probably be another one.

But that's completely irrelevant as the thread is about China and in most consumer goods there is simply no option other than to buy stuff from China or other Asian countries like Taiwan, Korea or India. I mentioned cars as the one place where consumers do have a choice to buy American. In most cases there is no chance to opt to pay more for something made in America and it damn well won't be four times the quality of something made in China.

 

[Engineer]

But that's completely irrelevant as the thread is about China and in most consumer goods there is simply no option other than to buy stuff from China or other Asian countries like Taiwan, Korea or India. I mentioned cars as the one place where consumers do have a choice to buy American. In most cases there is no chance to opt to pay more for something made in America and it damn well won't be four times the quality of something made in China.

Believe me, I understand fully. As someone who actively searches for USA made products when shopping, I do understand that there is little choice.

Oh, and my 12 year old Dodge has been great even for the entire 12 years that I've owned (bought new) though I wouldn't buy another Chrysler currently (because I don't like their styling).

 

[sdifox]

Yes, it's predicted that the Chinese economy will overtake the American economy by 2020. By 2050 it's predicted that the Chinese economy will double that of America. We will be battling for 2nd place with India.

You make the mistake that most westerners make. You are trying to define China thru western perceptions. a few centuries ago China was the dominant country. It was only the last two to three centuries that China fell from the top spot. The 20th century belonged to America. The 21st century is going to belong to China.

Understanding the Rise of China: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imhUmLtlZpw

The Chinese were much more advanced than the west. Take a look at Christopher's ship vs Chinese explorer Zheng.

lulz that Zheng ship is pure fabrication.

 

[monkeydelmagico]

The thing about China rising is that, unlike America, China will not be tripped up and slowed down by soft bullshit. If they have enemies, they will kill them. If they want a territory, they will take it. If they see economic opportunity, they will exploit it without the "moral" hesitations that Americans have. They will not be their own worst enemy.
China is the kind of strong, traditional empire that the world used to know. They will create the rules and decide if they feel like playing by them.

They can't run because of impenetrable smog and unfathomable pollution. The mortality and morbidity is staggering. They can't take a territory because they can't project power. Their military is a joke. If they see economic opportunity they will screw it up with piss poor planning, incredible corruption, and inept finance.

I can hardly wait for them to become this amazing traditional empire. Maybe we can step back and watch how it's done for a change.

Jingoism in it's purest form.

 

[dawheat]

I little resistance to a Chinese hegemony.

And that's why you can't be taken seriously. Things don't happen because you wish it, nor do problems disappear b/c you want to pretend they don't exist. The US also has serious issues we've been kicking down the road - but pretending they may not bite China as well as the US is stupid. No one can accurately predict the future and who knows who the dominant power will be in 50 years, but your attitude screams of "Middle Kingdom" hopes, and not actually based on thinking.

For example - the life expectancy living in a Chinese city is almost 5 years lower due to assorted pollution. The health care consequences decades down the line are significant.

Falling fertility rates are a large problem a generation from now - when % wise you have a decreasing working population to non-working population, that's a serious future funding problem (see Japan/Korea). Simply having 1.5 billion people now doesn't solve it - if anything it will make it worse.

How exactly does a military with 0 ability to project power "take" oil from the ME, much less occupy huge swathes of territory away from home. I'd love to see China try to conquer the ME - that's always worked well. Any country that has to spend 1/2 their defense budget on "internal security" is going to be somewhat handicapped. It's one thing to bully Vietnam, it's another thing altogether to conquer a country 1500 miles away.

 

[Svnla]

For those that brag about china's power, let invest your own money in these chinese companies = http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/americans-lose-billions-chinese-investment-frauds-18176221

 

[MongGrel]

Well if the US is smart then they will try to move some of the manufacturing of US consumer products over to India, Mexico, Vietnam, Bangladesh, and Indonesia. That way we have more flexibility to deal with China in the upcoming conflicts. Although it also gives China more flexibility in how they can deal with the US and other countries in any possible conflicts.

What rock have you been hiding under the last 30 (minimum) years.

Superior I'd still be torn about, good at reverse engineering and producing, yes.

I still avoid most things Chinese made, even spare car replacement parts they fail off the bat or perform badly.

 

[Sonikku]

China's business model is built off of leeching the world's innovation because they have no innovation of their own. If China were isolated, their model would implode. Inversely, if rip offs are allowed to be sold side by side with originals long enough than pretty soon the incentive to innovate will wane and time will start to stand still.

 

[olds]

You left out paying slave wages, using grossly inferior/unsafe material, and a general disregard for human life and the environment....

FTFM

 

[Chaotic42]

I look forward to automated manufacturing making it feasible to bring a lot of that back to the US.

 

[norseamd]

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...odi-manufacturing/+&cd=11&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

[norseamd]

The problem Moonbogg is that you are starting this discussion with a community of basically Americans and that is going to shape the comments you get and you are going to get a lot of ignorant bias and psychology.

http://www.internationalpolicydigest.org/2014/12/27/north-korea-sony-ignorance/


And one example of this is that no one mentioned any of this shit despite there being numerous mentions about China can only steal and that they are not capable of any productive shit.

http://www.ibtimes.com/china-africa...famed-primate-researcher-jane-goodall-1556312

http://isnblog.ethz.ch/diplomacy/auto-draft

 

[Blanky]

Chinese "clone" products are a cheap alternative to original products. They shamelessly copy creative and popular industrial products and sell for a tiny fraction of the price. I used to think this was cheating in a way, but I now see it as strength and is indicative of a superior economic model compared to our own.
They can do anything we can do for less. This takes the wind out of our sails while they sell their own original products right here in our country, along side their clones. Our patent laws have come back to bite us in the ass. We are crippled by our own laws and they just sit back and shake their head and wonder why we don't untie our own hands.
America can't win like this. It will continue to get worse and we will go down in a big way and end up like Canada.

Troll

 

[DrPizza]

I just received 2 products that I ordered on Amazon. Both are utter crap quality, cheap Chinese knockoffs. Both have stainless steel parts that are rusted where they were spot welded - and very poor welds at that. I'll be leaving a couple of very negative reviews later today.

 

[Engineer]

I just love Chinese manufacturing. So simple...yet so effective (and cheap):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF865wbEeyI

 

[Greenman]

lulz that Zheng ship is pure fabrication.

I assumed the models were at different scales.

 

[sdifox]

I assumed the models were at different scales.

no, that is suposed to be to scale.

 

[JEDIYoda]

I am waiting for the Chinese to come out with a knock of Replicator or Warp drive.....
They could probably grow their own clone Dilithium crystals...

 

[Dari]

I'm the first to happily shit all over Chinese "quality" but let's remember that they gave us electronic cigarettes. It was invented in China and it's helping millions to quit smoking. They deserve that at least.

 

[Grooveriding]

Where does this idea that everything made in China is crap come from ? All my televisions, monitors, cameras, phones and near everything else in the house are manufactured there and work excellently. If you are talking about cheap knock off crap of crap that is already crap then sure I guess that crap is even more crap than the original crap.... As far as electronics, near everything is coming from China.

When I think quality manufacturing it's going to be Germany or Italy, not the USA. Is anything even mass manufactured for the commercial market in the US besides guns ? I can't remember buying anything that was actually made there, at least nothing I'm aware of. I would never buy an American car unless it was an old muscle car from the 60s and I couldn't slip that one past the wife

One of our cars is made in Germany and the other in Japan. I don't think there are any decent American cars, at least in my own subjective opinion, aesthetics wise they are fugly.

 

[unixwizzard]

All this whining about Chinese clones and knockoffs.

I can't help but feeling that it is our own fault. Our own foolishness, naivety, and greed brought this about. For years and years American companies have been lured over to China with the promise of access to their huge market.

All we saw were dollar signs floating in front of our eyes.

The reality is that that magical access to the marketplace never really happened. Instead we sent our manufacturing over to them, gave them the formula and instructions to make things. They then took all that knowledge we gave them and copied it for their own internal use. So instead of Company USA getting to sell their product to a billion or so Chinese, it's Company China that gets to sell what we taught them how to make to those billion or so Chinese.

Then, to throw it back in our faces, the Chinese start to dump their crappy, substandard knock-offs back into our marketplace, and we foolishly gobble up all that cheap junk.

Every now and then we in the US start to complain to the Chinese about this practice, and every time the Chinese manage to placate us with promises of more access to their market, enough promises to quiet the complaints. The reality is that those promises never come to fruition. This happens over and over and over yet somehow we keep falling for their false promises hook, line, and sinker every single time.

All in the name of those dollar signs we see when those magical words "Chinese Marketplace" are uttered.

 

[Engineer]

All this whining about Chinese clones and knockoffs.

I can't help but feeling that it is our own fault. Our own foolishness, naivety, and greed brought this about. For years and years American companies have been lured over to China with the promise of access to their huge market.

All we saw were dollar signs floating in front of our eyes.

The reality is that that magical access to the marketplace never really happened. Instead we sent our manufacturing over to them, gave them the formula and instructions to make things. They then took all that knowledge we gave them and copied it for their own internal use. So instead of Company USA getting to sell their product to a billion or so Chinese, it's Company China that gets to sell what we taught them how to make to those billion or so Chinese.

Then, to throw it back in our faces, the Chinese start to dump their crappy, substandard knock-offs back into our marketplace, and we foolishly gobble up all that cheap junk.

Every now and then we in the US start to complain to the Chinese about this practice, and every time the Chinese manage to placate us with promises of more access to their market, enough promises to quiet the complaints. The reality is that those promises never come to fruition. This happens over and over and over yet somehow we keep falling for their false promises hook, line, and sinker every single time.

All in the name of those dollar signs we see when those magical words "Chinese Marketplace" are uttered.

:thumbsup:

And with two new (so called) free trade agreements coming up, one to Asia, I'm sure there will be more promises by the Chinese to open their markets..blah..blah...blah. Same old stuff....different day.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Chinese goverment is thoroughly corrupt, harvesting organs from slave prison labor that works 7 days a week, officials want bribes to conduct business (the norm), and finally:

China is the most polluted country on the planet, bar none.

Its even viewable from SPACE ORBIT!!