Asian carmakers oversell horsepower

[OS]

Heh, this "news" is nothing more than selective reporting and then making up a BS story. Many of honda's 06 models are making out fine

06 I4 accord: 166 HP
05 I4 accord: 160 HP

06 V6 accord: 244 HP
05 V6 accord: 240 HP

06 TSX: 200 HP
05 TSX: 205 HP


tsx
accord

Originally posted by: Amused
And the fanbois will still suffer from the placebo effect and rant with denials...

At any rate I knew something was up when taking test drives in some new cars last year. The new

numbers just didn't transfer to much increase in the seat of the pants feeling.

-vehicle weights are up (hurts acceleration)
-rim/wheel sizes are up (hurts acceleration)
-new cars (<5K miles) are not broken in losing a few HP
-ambient weather conditions (hotter/higher hurts power)

Ass dyno is a terrible way to judge improvement in acceleration. Go to any half decent car forum with that line and you'll be ripped on for being a ricer.

Differences in power often are not apparent until the last 1.5K-2K RPMS, so unless you are redlining on all your test drives. I have driven cars that are supposed to be significantly faster than mine (G35, 280 HP avalon, BMW 7 series) and in low to mid range driving the difference is not readily apparently. The best way to run two test cars broken in, same track/dragstrip at the same time side by side.

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
what was it that i saw posted the other day, "why do japanese car engines produce so much more HP than the equivalent american car engine?". guess what fellas now we know why.

Toyota 3.0 210hp? NOPE, 190

Ford 3.0 203HP, oooppps. and the domestic manufacturers are finding some of their engines are rated

HIGHER than they had initially estimated. OOOPPPS.

i've said it many times, much of the "advantage" japanese car manufacturers have is "perceived" but not actual.

this is a GREAT example of that. 😉

For someone always crying about ignorant ATOT import kid fanboys, you have no clue. Read for comprehension. As taken from the article;

As the new testing procedure is phased in, it may be tricky for consumers. For example, the Ford Five Hundred sedan is rated at 203 horsepower for 2006, the same as the 2005 model. But the 2006 rating does not reflect the new SAE testing procedure, because Ford is not going to the expense of retesting its existing engines, said company spokesman Nick Twork.

It doesn't work the way you think it does. A key requirement to the new rating system is the dynos are audited by a 3rd party witness to qualify for new SAE certified numbers. Toyota's 190 HP IS certified and audited. Ford's 203 HP IS NOT. It is not directly comparable. In fact, I would bet money that upon being similarly certified and audited, Ford's V6 numbers will also come down assuming no engineering changes.

I have something even better for you;

06 Toyota Camry
3.0L DOHC
190 HP (SAE certified)

06 Ford 500
3.0L DOHC
203 HP (not certified)

06 Honda Accord
3.0L SOHC
244 HP (SAE certified)

Honda's V6 makes ~20% more power than Ford, using the SAME displacement, one LESS camshaft per cylinder head, AND with a STRICTER HP rating system. Oh yeah and it makes slightly more torque on the stricter rating system.

Not everyone has converted to the new system yet. Wait until EVERYONE puts out SAE audited numbers. Don't count your eggs before they're hatched.

 

[sygyzy]

Originally posted by: Amused
And the fanbois will still suffer from the placebo effect and rant with denials...

At any rate I knew something was up when taking test drives in some new cars last year. The new numbers just didn't transfer to much increase in the seat of the pants feeling.

Yeah because you can feel a 10-20 HP difference.

 

[bootymac]

Originally posted by: RossMAN
I doubt I'll ever or use my Accord's 150HP, fine with me.

As long as I can outrun a Geo Metro or Daihatsu, then I'm happy.

You could outrun those on foot 😉

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Detroit News.

Biased. Stupid white people.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: Amused
And the fanbois will still suffer from the placebo effect and rant with denials...

At any rate I knew something was up when taking test drives in some new cars last year. The new

numbers just didn't transfer to much increase in the seat of the pants feeling.

-vehicle weights are up (hurts acceleration)
-rim/wheel sizes are up (hurts acceleration)
-new cars (<5K miles) are not broken in losing a few HP
-ambient weather conditions (hotter/higher hurts power)

Ass dyno is a terrible way to judge improvement in acceleration. Go to any half decent car forum with that line and you'll be ripped on for being a ricer.

Differences in power often are not apparent until the last 1.5K-2K RPMS, so unless you are redlining on all your test drives. I have driven cars that are supposed to be significantly faster than mine (G35, 280 HP avalon, BMW 7 series) and in low to mid range driving the difference is not readily apparently. The best way to run two test cars broken in, same track/dragstrip at the same time side by side.

I don't live, or drive on a race track. I don't give much credence to elitist snobs either. "Ass dyno" is a true test of how *I* drive a car in day to day driving. I'm not a fscking race car driver, why should I judge my cars on a track or dyno? And why in the hell would I want a car with torque so low, the peak HP isn't until I rev the piece of crap up to 20,000 RPMs?

What good is a supposed increase in HP if I can't feel it in the way *I* drive the car?

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Freejack2
For new cars maybe a Japanese car is desired but for used I will never understand why people buy used imports.
Take a 2003 Toyota Camry V6 SE vs a 2003 Chevy Impala LS.
Camry - Dealer retail: $18860
Impala - Dealer retail: $13381

Camry cost per mile: $0.44
Impala cost per mile: $0.38

Now lets say I get the Impala and drive it for 5 years. I save $5479 up front. Please don't even try to tell me that for the Impala I'll spend $5479 more than the repairs on the Camry.

Ok so now you want to argue the Camry will be worth more when I get rid of the car in 5 years. Lets look at the trade-in price of 7 year old cars...
Ok there was no Impala in 98 so lets take the 2000. Looks like they're losing about $1400 a year so we'll take $2800 off $5431 which gives us $2631.
A 98 Camry goes for $4747

Well I'd get $2116 more for the Camry. So that means the Impala for would have to have more than $3,363 in repairs than the Camry for me to be worse off.
I'd say buying a used domestic is a winner every time.
As for new cars that's each person's choice. At least have the decency to buy a car from an American manufacturer or a car made in America (ex. Accords are made in Ohio)

Who gets rid of a perfectly good car after only 5 years? I've never sold a car with less than 120,000 miles on it. I've never sold a daily driver with less than 160,000 miles on it.

ZV

 

[vshah]

whatever, 0-60 times don't lie

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: Amused
And the fanbois will still suffer from the placebo effect and rant with denials...

At any rate I knew something was up when taking test drives in some new cars last year. The new

numbers just didn't transfer to much increase in the seat of the pants feeling.

-vehicle weights are up (hurts acceleration)
-rim/wheel sizes are up (hurts acceleration)
-new cars (<5K miles) are not broken in losing a few HP
-ambient weather conditions (hotter/higher hurts power)

Ass dyno is a terrible way to judge improvement in acceleration. Go to any half decent car forum with that line and you'll be ripped on for being a ricer.

Differences in power often are not apparent until the last 1.5K-2K RPMS, so unless you are redlining on all your test drives. I have driven cars that are supposed to be significantly faster than mine (G35, 280 HP avalon, BMW 7 series) and in low to mid range driving the difference is not readily apparently. The best way to run two test cars broken in, same track/dragstrip at the same time side by side.

I don't live, or drive on a race track. I don't give much credence to elitist snobs either. "Ass dyno" is a true test of how *I* drive a car in day to day driving. I'm not a fscking race car driver, why should I judge my cars on a track or dyno? And why in the hell would I want a car with torque so low, the peak HP isn't until I rev the piece of crap up to 20,000 RPMs?

What good is a supposed increase in HP if I can't feel it in the way *I* drive the car?

heh, if you're not a "race car driver" and all you do is putz around, why do you even bother test driving driving new cars because of more HP.

 

[TuffGuy]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: Amused
And the fanbois will still suffer from the placebo effect and rant with denials...

At any rate I knew something was up when taking test drives in some new cars last year. The new

numbers just didn't transfer to much increase in the seat of the pants feeling.

-vehicle weights are up (hurts acceleration)
-rim/wheel sizes are up (hurts acceleration)
-new cars (<5K miles) are not broken in losing a few HP
-ambient weather conditions (hotter/higher hurts power)

Ass dyno is a terrible way to judge improvement in acceleration. Go to any half decent car forum with that line and you'll be ripped on for being a ricer.

Differences in power often are not apparent until the last 1.5K-2K RPMS, so unless you are redlining on all your test drives. I have driven cars that are supposed to be significantly faster than mine (G35, 280 HP avalon, BMW 7 series) and in low to mid range driving the difference is not readily apparently. The best way to run two test cars broken in, same track/dragstrip at the same time side by side.

I don't live, or drive on a race track. I don't give much credence to elitist snobs either. "Ass dyno" is a true test of how *I* drive a car in day to day driving. I'm not a fscking race car driver, why should I judge my cars on a track or dyno? And why in the hell would I want a car with torque so low, the peak HP isn't until I rev the piece of crap up to 20,000 RPMs?

What good is a supposed increase in HP if I can't feel it in the way *I* drive the car?

Even if power went up slightly it's been offset by vehicle weight, extra catalytic converters for emissions, bigger rims.

Cars today are built by health and safety. They're full of airbags, and extra structural supports for energy absorption during an accident.

 

[TuffGuy]

And for those of you complaining about inaccurate MPG ratings, blame it on a testing procedure that's what... 30 years old, and based on a 55mph speed limit and better stop-and-go traffic?

You should also demand stricter testing on trucks and SUVs.

At least some manufacturers back up their claims. My car's rated at 23/29. I'm averaging 27mpg and I can get 33mpg on the fwy (74mph).

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: Amused
And the fanbois will still suffer from the placebo effect and rant with denials...

At any rate I knew something was up when taking test drives in some new cars last year. The new

numbers just didn't transfer to much increase in the seat of the pants feeling.

-vehicle weights are up (hurts acceleration)
-rim/wheel sizes are up (hurts acceleration)
-new cars (<5K miles) are not broken in losing a few HP
-ambient weather conditions (hotter/higher hurts power)

Ass dyno is a terrible way to judge improvement in acceleration. Go to any half decent car forum with that line and you'll be ripped on for being a ricer.

Differences in power often are not apparent until the last 1.5K-2K RPMS, so unless you are redlining on all your test drives. I have driven cars that are supposed to be significantly faster than mine (G35, 280 HP avalon, BMW 7 series) and in low to mid range driving the difference is not readily apparently. The best way to run two test cars broken in, same track/dragstrip at the same time side by side.

I don't live, or drive on a race track. I don't give much credence to elitist snobs either. "Ass dyno" is a true test of how *I* drive a car in day to day driving. I'm not a fscking race car driver, why should I judge my cars on a track or dyno? And why in the hell would I want a car with torque so low, the peak HP isn't until I rev the piece of crap up to 20,000 RPMs?

What good is a supposed increase in HP if I can't feel it in the way *I* drive the car?

heh, if you're not a "race car driver" and all you do is putz around, why do you even bother test driving driving new cars because of more HP.

Passing power. Hill climbing power. And for trucks, towing power.

Power is useful even for people who don't race. 😛

This is a perfect example of how elitists (not you, but those forum members you mentioned) lose touch with reality when they get so wrapped up in their hobby/obsession, that they forget and even snub what common people do.

 

[Pepsi90919]

Originally posted by: Freejack2
For new cars maybe a Japanese car is desired but for used I will never understand why people buy used imports.
Take a 2003 Toyota Camry V6 SE vs a 2003 Chevy Impala LS.
Camry - Dealer retail: $18860
Impala - Dealer retail: $13381

Camry cost per mile: $0.44
Impala cost per mile: $0.38

Now lets say I get the Impala and drive it for 5 years. I save $5479 up front. Please don't even try to tell me that for the Impala I'll spend $5479 more than the repairs on the Camry.

Ok so now you want to argue the Camry will be worth more when I get rid of the car in 5 years. Lets look at the trade-in price of 7 year old cars...
Ok there was no Impala in 98 so lets take the 2000. Looks like they're losing about $1400 a year so we'll take $2800 off $5431 which gives us $2631.
A 98 Camry goes for $4747

Well I'd get $2116 more for the Camry. So that means the Impala for would have to have more than $3,363 in repairs than the Camry for me to be worse off.
I'd say buying a used domestic is a winner every time.
As for new cars that's each person's choice. At least have the decency to buy a car from an American manufacturer or a car made in America (ex. Accords are made in Ohio)

where are you getting this 5431 figure from?

 

[MasterAndCommander]

"I live my life a quarter mile at a time, nothing else matters, for those ten seconds or less, I'm free. " 😀

 

[suse920]

Originally posted by: DLeRium
Detroit News.

Biased. Stupid white people.

the racism is high in this one.

 

[klah]

Originally posted by: Tommunist
i still think they should show dynos of cars instead of just peak hp numbers. it would be a lot more telling of how the car will perform.

GM does. (select the menu under "Performance Plots")

http://media.gm.com/division/2005_prodi...train/engines/05_car_engine_specs.html
http://media.gm.com/division/2005_prodi...ain/engines/05_truck_engine_specs.html

The LS2 was the first engine certified under the new procedure.


The new procedure is described in SAE_J2723.

http://www.sae.org/certifiedpower/details.htm

 

[Project86]

This article seems incredibly biased. It basically states that Japanes companies have been lying all along, then goes on to say that the new testing procedure is what actually caused the changes. Huh?!?!? That's like calling me out for getting a perfect 1600 on my SAT back in the day (which I didn't...) since the new scoring method means 2400 is a perfect score. "You only got 1600?!?!? You've been claiming a perfect score, but now we know you've been lying all along!!!"

The article is full of quotes from domestic company spokespeople using words like "we don't anticipate any major changes" "We typically like to underpromise and overdeliver" "We have confidence that our customers will get the power they pay for" and "We've wholeheartedly embraced the new procedures". Meanwhile, they have not gone back and retested all of their cars. Aren't we talking about car companies backing up their claims here?

I currently own both Japanese and domestic cars, and have had plenty of both in my lifetime. Some cars just suck, and some are just great. there are soooo many more factors than just foreign/domestic or horsepower ratings. I used to have a family member with a 1999 Civic SI, rated at 160hp. At the time I drove a 1997 Nissan 240sx, also 160hp. The difference in those 2 cars was night and day--the SI being much more fun to drive spirited at high rpm, the 240 having way more torque for stoplight take offs. One was fwd, one rwd. One had usable backseats, the other was basically a 2 seater. All factors that might be important to you other than the similar hp rating.