As Netanyuhu finally wakes up to the consequences.

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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As may besides me have warned of the Israeli dangers if excessive Israeli settlement in disputed areas gained from the 1967 and 73 wars, still administered by Israel, kills off the 2 state solution. Because then a single State solution will be the only remaining possibility. As Israel is forced to assimilate its 3 + million Palestinians with full voting rights.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/201...-israel-binational-state.html?ref=global-home

As Netanyuhu finally addresses the question his policies have created. As Netanyuhu is seemingly up the creek without an answer.

Personally I don't think the Israeli Palestinian issues can be solved without binding 3'rd party arbitration, as the world has wasted 15 years waiting for Israel to deal in good faith by also fairly addressing legacy issues like the right to return.

But who knows, the Pals were almost ready to accept the Olmert offer until Netanyuhu yanked it off the table.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
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As may besides me have warned of the Israeli dangers if excessive Israeli settlement in disputed areas gained from the 1967 and 73 wars, still administered by Israel, kills off the 2 state solution. Because then a single State solution will be the only remaining possibility. As Israel is forced to assimilate its 3 + million Palestinians with full voting rights.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/201...-israel-binational-state.html?ref=global-home

As Netanyuhu finally addresses the question his policies have created. As Netanyuhu is seemingly up the creek without an answer.

Personally I don't think the Israeli Palestinian issues can be solved without binding 3'rd party arbitration, as the world has wasted 15 years waiting for Israel to deal in good faith by also fairly addressing legacy issues like the right to return.

But who knows, the Pals were almost ready to accept the Olmert offer until Netanyuhu yanked it off the table.

Almost is only good in horse shoes and hand grenades.
The Palestinians have had 40 years to move past almost and never did or tried.

You want to talk about the right of return as fairness; the majority of those that left, did so on their own accord. Those that the IDF escorted to the border can claim a right of return.

It is up to Israel to determine if they want to absorb the West Bank into Israel proper, or allow a two state solution. The world is not going to do anything until the two primary parties agree on a solution.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,785
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I have a terrible time telling what religion a person is by looking at them. So for me personally, I have a really tough time with a religious state. I prefer a state in which you can be any religion you like or none at all. The historical reaction, I guess, to mass extermination of the Jews in so many European states led to the creation of a Jewish nation and now the Jews don't want a really big bunch of Muslims living there as citizens. Who knows what the hell to do. Do we focus on the past or the future. It seems to me, as I said, that people are just people. A religion is something you usually believe because it's the thing you're born into. If you are adopted you become something different than what you might have been. That makes me suspect that one's religion is purely arbitrary. How can you get all wound up over what is an accident?
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
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I have a terrible time telling what religion a person is by looking at them. So for me personally, I have a really tough time with a religious state. I prefer a state in which you can be any religion you like or none at all. The historical reaction, I guess, to mass extermination of the Jews in so many European states led to the creation of a Jewish nation and now the Jews don't want a really big bunch of Muslims living there as citizens. Who knows what the hell to do. Do we focus on the past or the future. It seems to me, as I said, that people are just people. A religion is something you usually believe because it's the thing you're born into. If you are adopted you become something different than what you might have been. That makes me suspect that one's religion is purely arbitrary. How can you get all wound up over what is an accident?

You what? You want a Jewish state that is secular? - but that is a complete non-starter. A Jewish state is by definition Jewish, screw all other religions unless they accept the Jewishness of Jewish Israel. Israel = Jews as der Herrenvolk, the rest as den Untermenschen. That is only fair. You liberal nuts think all people have equal rights, how silly can you be? Jim Crow laws for the people! Apartheid is cool!
 
Sep 12, 2004
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But who knows, the Pals were almost ready to accept the Olmert offer until Netanyuhu yanked it off the table.
The Pals had a reasonable offer and dicked around until it was too late.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/28/ehud-olmert-israeli-forme_n_815430.html

But in LL's little fantasy world it's always Israel that is the problem, never his favored little Palestinian victims. Besides that, Hamas's refusal to acknowledge the State of Israel will continue to be the major sticking point that will halt any deal, no matter what reasonable offer Israel makes to them. But keep turning that blind eye, LL. Your one-sided bloviations are always good for a laugh at what a biased tool you are.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,785
6,516
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Just heard part of an interesting piece on Fresh Air describing the fight between American Jews over a one state two state Israel. The point I got was that a lot depends on age. Older Jews remember the European mess and when Israel was weak and younger ones remember less flattering things. It is funny though how folk want to preserve their culture although one's culture is totally accidental. I always try to remember that the most intelligent, insightful and informed critics of Israel are Jews.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,320
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As may besides me have warned of the Israeli dangers if excessive Israeli settlement in disputed areas gained from the 1967 and 73 wars, still administered by Israel, kills off the 2 state solution. Because then a single State solution will be the only remaining possibility. As Israel is forced to assimilate its 3 + million Palestinians with full voting rights.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/201...-israel-binational-state.html?ref=global-home

As Netanyuhu finally addresses the question his policies have created. As Netanyuhu is seemingly up the creek without an answer.

Personally I don't think the Israeli Palestinian issues can be solved without binding 3'rd party arbitration, as the world has wasted 15 years waiting for Israel to deal in good faith by also fairly addressing legacy issues like the right to return.

But who knows, the Pals were almost ready to accept the Olmert offer until Netanyuhu yanked it off the table.

more bloviations....
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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more bloviations....
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Maybe its just more blovations until they actually happen.

The apartheid government of South Africa lasted far longer than its Israeli equivalent, but once time ran out the South African apartheid government unraveled at new the speed of light. the Reign of the Russian Czars enjoyed a far longer run, and the French Royal rule lasted for 800 years. I can go on and on citing examples JediY, but blovations offer little insight or long term security.or stability.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
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Maybe its just more blovations until they actually happen.

The apartheid government of South Africa lasted far longer than its Israeli equivalent, but once time ran out the South African apartheid government unraveled at new the speed of light. the Reign of the Russian Czars enjoyed a far longer run, and the French Royal rule lasted for 800 years. I can go on and on citing examples JediY, but blovations offer little insight or long term security.or stability.

Stability will exist once the Arabs and Palestinians accept that there is an Israel.
At present, neither has offered Israel long term security.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Stability will exist once the Arabs and Palestinians accept that there is an Israel.
At present, neither has offered Israel long term security.
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While I hope that Israel will, gain that long time security and becomes a productive and accepted member of the mid-east, but if we look at overall world history, EK offers another blovation myth. Because once Israel outlasts its welcome and tyranny, history offers only the lesson that sometimes the empire that overstays its welcome is treated better than it had treated those it formerly oppressed, and sometimes the spirit of revenge rules the day.

As I would prefer the lesson of Lincoln after our civil war and the lesson of Nelson Mandella and Desmo Tutu in South Africa as the better alternative. But we can also note after the French Revolution in 1789 and in the Russian revolution of 1917 the vanquished oppressor did not end up as lucky.

As Israel seems to thinks only 6.5 million Israel jews can perpetually keep pissing off 300 million Arabs and get away with it with total impunity, does not tip long term odds of a better end outcome in Israel's favor.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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While I hope that Israel will, gain that long time security and becomes a productive and accepted member of the mid-east, but if we look at overall world history, EK offers another blovation myth. Because once Israel outlasts its welcome and tyranny, history offers only the lesson that sometimes the empire that overstays its welcome is treated better than it had treated those it formerly oppressed, and sometimes the spirit of revenge rules the day.

As I would prefer the lesson of Lincoln after our civil war and the lesson of Nelson Mandella and Desmo Tutu in South Africa as the better alternative. But we can also note after the French Revolution in 1789 and in the Russian revolution of 1917 the vanquished oppressor did not end up as lucky.
WTF? The situations in the US, France, Russia, and South Africa had little to no similiarities between themselves and none of them have any similarity to the situation in Israel.

As Israel seems to thinks only 6.5 million Israel jews can perpetually keep pissing off 300 million Arabs and get away with it with total impunity, does not tip long term odds of a better end outcome in Israel's favor.
We've seen in the past what happens when those Arabs get pissed enough to do something about it. They get their asses handed to them by that 6.5 million. They're too scared to do anything because they're afraid of being embarrassed and humiliated yet again. Besides that, Israel has some very powerfull countries behind them, regardless of your hot air, windbag claim that the rest of the world is against them. Then there's the problem that most Arab countries aren't united at all. They hate each other almost as much as they hate Israel. So don't count on seeing your fantasy of Israel being crushed by "pissed" Arabs to come true anytime soon...like in your lifetime.
 
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EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
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While I hope that Israel will, gain that long time security and becomes a productive and accepted member of the mid-east, but if we look at overall world history, EK offers another blovation myth. Because once Israel outlasts its welcome and tyranny, history offers only the lesson that sometimes the empire that overstays its welcome is treated better than it had treated those it formerly oppressed, and sometimes the spirit of revenge rules the day.

As I would prefer the lesson of Lincoln after our civil war and the lesson of Nelson Mandella and Desmo Tutu in South Africa as the better alternative. But we can also note after the French Revolution in 1789 and in the Russian revolution of 1917 the vanquished oppressor did not end up as lucky.

As Israel seems to thinks only 6.5 million Israel jews can perpetually keep pissing off 300 million Arabs and get away with it with total impunity, does not tip long term odds of a better end outcome in Israel's favor.

All Israel has to do is keep pissing off the Palestinians to ensure that there will be no state. To piss them off is to allow the Palestinian to be their own worst enemy and choose to be a puppet.
The Arabs will always be pissed off.

We know the world is not going to do anything (except for you with the rose colored mushrooms). They had their chance multiple times to straighten out the mess and ever time, they punt.
We know that the Arabs are unable to do anything. they had their chance and failed
We know the Palestinians do not want to do anything - it will then destroy their underdog status.

Lincoln held out an olive branch to an enemy that knew they were beaten and willing to concede.
The Palestinians do not realize such.
And any olive branch that has been offered is quickly burned.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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As Ek, TlC, and various Israeli fan clubbers keep saying Israel can get away with anything by playing the military card, its maybe time to remind everyone that 200 million Arabs with oil can speak far louder than Israel if they collectively choose to legally play the disrupt the oil supply card. Especially if Israel overplays their hand. The biggie is the house of Faudin SA, because house of Faud could fall if it aids Israel.

But still not the subject of the new news I post, as Netanyuhu has little freedom to repair Israeli Palestinian relations as the Netanyuhu coalition crazies force continual settlement on disputed lands.

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=264665

Making the whole clusterfuck far worse.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
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As Ek, TlC, and various Israeli fan clubbers keep saying Israel can get away with anything by playing the military card, its maybe time to remind everyone that 200 million Arabs with oil can speak far louder than Israel if they collectively choose to legally play the disrupt the oil supply card. Especially if Israel overplays their hand. The biggie is the house of Faudin SA, because house of Faud could fall if it aids Israel.

But still not the subject of the new news I post, as Netanyuhu has little freedom to repair Israeli Palestinian relations as the Netanyuhu coalition crazies force continual settlement on disputed lands.

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=264665

Making the whole clusterfuck far worse.

You are making apples and oranges comparisons. The military option is completely separate and unique from the economic picture. The military approach has almost always gone to the the country with the greatest will to overcome. The Israelis would prevail in a military conflict because the Arab nations are not willing to spend the 18 or 20 million Arab lives it would take to destroy Israel.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
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its maybe time to remind everyone that 200 million Arabs with oil can speak far louder than Israel if they collectively choose to legally play the disrupt the oil supply card.

The U.S. has within our lands estimated 3x the energy in obtainable natural gas of what is claimed remaining crude oil in all of Saudi Arabia.

After natural gas we can go after the large pockets of methane off our shores.

There is no reason for Saudia Arabia's oil supplies to dictate how the I view the Israel/Palestine situation.
 
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Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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As the defect in the magnus delusion lies in the fact the larger world would allow Israel to militarily attack 20 + million Arabs who boycott Israel legally and do not militarily attack Israel in any way. As Israeli shrilly demands the larger world sanctions any entity that Israel does not like, why should not the 300 million Arabs not enjoy the same freedom of action.

As Israel gets a dose of its same medicine.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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You what? You want a Jewish state that is secular? - but that is a complete non-starter. A Jewish state is by definition Jewish, screw all other religions unless they accept the Jewishness of Jewish Israel. Israel = Jews as der Herrenvolk, the rest as den Untermenschen. That is only fair. You liberal nuts think all people have equal rights, how silly can you be? Jim Crow laws for the people! Apartheid is cool!

I realize you think hatred is cool and you feel all manly spouting words and phrases you clearly do not understand, but I am also going to assume you do not wish to remain ignorant if there is an alternative which is easily understood.

Israeli Arabs have had the right to vote in Israeli elections since Israel was founded. Mosques are legal all throughout Israel. Muslims are in charge of the Temple Mount.

This is the reality of modern Isreal, and it does not match what you have said in your post. Now that you know what the truth is, you can stop posting such incorrect information as you did in the post I quoted.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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..its maybe time to remind everyone that 200 million Arabs with oil can speak far louder than Israel if they collectively choose to legally play the disrupt the oil supply card.

Do you honestly think the US, EU, Russia, and China would sit there and say "darn, we control almost the entire military of the planet, but we are powerless to get oil from the Middle East if they refuse to sell it"?

Do you really think that?

My view, the US, EU, Russia, and China all decide which of the Middle Eastern nations they will invade, so that they do not accidently shoot at each other. The invasion happens, governments are quickly toppled, the oil flow freely again.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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In another thread update, Netanyuhu will likely appeal to Abbas to return to the negotiations table without Netanyuhu offering any settlement freeze.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...s-to-return-to-the-negotiating-table-1.422444

Which is likely to go over like a lead balloon. An Israeli charade that died at Annapolis in 2008. And died again in Jordan by 2/2012.

But who knows, maybe back channel talks could work if Netanyuhu is willing to offer major back channel concessions.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
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In another thread update, Netanyuhu will likely appeal to Abbas to return to the negotiations table without Netanyuhu offering any settlement freeze.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...s-to-return-to-the-negotiating-table-1.422444

Which is likely to go over like a lead balloon. An Israeli charade that died at Annapolis in 2008. And died again in Jordan by 2/2012.

But who knows, maybe back channel talks could work if Netanyuhu is willing to offer major back channel concessions.

Why would he offer a freeze? When he froze it the last time the Palestinians refused to negotiate until the day before it expired, but then only to say they refuse to negotiate unless he lengthens the time of the freeze.

If you touch a stove and burn yourself, it is stupid to immediately touch it again to see if you get burned again.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
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"I want to solve the conflict with the Palestinians because I don't want a binational state," Netanyahu told a rare news conference.

Can you imagine if an American politician said they want the US to be an Anglo-Saxon state?
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
1,594
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As the defect in the magnus delusion lies in the fact the larger world would allow Israel to militarily attack 20 + million Arabs who boycott Israel legally and do not militarily attack Israel in any way. As Israeli shrilly demands the larger world sanctions any entity that Israel does not like, why should not the 300 million Arabs not enjoy the same freedom of action.

As Israel gets a dose of its same medicine.

You missed the point (as usual). Military options are completely separate and unique. Do you really think Heads of State sit around saying, "Well, we could attack them or, sanction them or, try appealing to the UN. They all seem pretty good to me, what do you think Amir?"
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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Can you imagine if an American politician said they want the US to be an Anglo-Saxon state?

The Middle East is a different beast. They have an entire city where no religious building is allowed except those dedicated to Islam...and entire nations who have a tax specifically applied to only people who are not Muslims.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
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The Middle East is a different beast. They have an entire city where no religious building is allowed except those dedicated to Islam...and entire nations who have a tax specifically applied to only people who are not Muslims.

And a state that specifically claims to be a Jewish state, making it's non-Jewish citizens second class by construction. Two wrongs don't make a right.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,320
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You what? You want a Jewish state that is secular? - but that is a complete non-starter. A Jewish state is by definition Jewish, screw all other religions unless they accept the Jewishness of Jewish Israel. Israel = Jews as der Herrenvolk, the rest as den Untermenschen. That is only fair. You liberal nuts think all people have equal rights, how silly can you be? Jim Crow laws for the people! Apartheid is cool!

As usual your are spouting nothing but mis-information.....or as I like to say -- you are bloviating!!

There is nothing wrong with the state of Israel wanting to maintain themselves as a Jewish state!!

But for you to say !! -- - screw all other religions unless they accept the Jewishness of Jewish Israel!! -- Is a very uneducated remark!!

As Cybersage pointed out and rightly so -- Israeli Arabs have had the right to vote in Israeli elections since Israel was founded. Mosques are legal all throughout Israel. Muslims are in charge of the Temple Mount.

Unlike Islam; Jewish teachings do not allow for the killing of those who refuse to convert.....