As Bush prepares to leave office...

[blackangst1]

It will be interesting to see what his last speech will be. I got this little blurb from the WA post. At least he's willing to admit to some of his mistakes. Interesting these are the things he is mostly criticized for. Certainly it doesnt erase any of his mistakes, but at least he knows he fucked up.

Bush cites disappointments, mistakes, in office

The Associated Press
Monday, January 12, 2009; 9:51 AM

WASHINGTON -- In the final days of his presidency, George W. Bush is acknowledging a list of mistakes or disappointments.

Here's his list:

_He said, "Clearly, putting 'Mission Accomplished' on an aircraft carrier was a mistake." The banner went up shortly after Saddam Hussein was toppled from power.

_Bush also said that "some of my rhetoric" has been a mistake. He has been widely criticized for proclaiming "Bring it on!" to terrorists around the world.

_He said he probably miscalculated in going immediately for an overhaul of the Social Security program, rather than seeking reform, in the wake of his re-election to a second term in 2004.

_Bush also cited his "disappointment" with the revelations of abuses at the Abu Graib detention camp in Iraq and in never turning up weapons of mass destruction in the country.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

He probably should have passed on the pretzel as well. Of all recent Presidents, he has the most that he ought to regret. So many have died for so little, yet he won't see that as a negative.

 

[Zebo]

His biggest mistake was not studying, and his staff not studying, what is contained in the Qur?an and Hadith, and what General Muhammad, that Perfect Man always and everywhere to be emulated by Muslims. Realizing their behavior is a threat to all non-Muslims and Muslims alike everywhere, they would have only entered to destroy weapons, and not to rebuild, reconstruct, or otherwise attempt in Iraq or Afghanistan to create an impossible ?new Middle East.? So many lives could have been saved, so much treasure reserved for the inevitable next attack. Instead he disarms the West with "religion of peace" mantra, very dangerous and irresponsible.

 

[DukeN]

What a douchebag. He could've realised his errors way back, and prevented future ones or tried to correct them. Standing by a poor decision stubbornly only compounds the problems.

 

[Fear No Evil]

I know all of you live in this fantasy land where you can make decisions in 100% 20/20 hindsight.. but it doesn't work that way in real life. As President you have to make tough decisions based on the information you have. Once you decide to invade a country you can't just decide to pull out overnight. Most congressman made the same mistakes a Bush did. I know most of you would just sit in the oval office and pass the joint around and hope for world peace.. but the world doesn't work that way.

Obama will make TONS of mistakes as well, and he likely won't admit them either until the very end, if even then. He will also likely make decisions that will cost the lives of 100's if not thousands of U.S. troops as well during his 4-8 years as President. People will likely do stupid things under his command as well (Abu Graib).

We'll see over the next 4 years if Obama is the Great Messiah everyone thinks he is. I think he will find that actually having to make decisions will be a lot more difficult than voting present and writing memoirs. Lets see if he is actually up to the challenge to lead and not just give speeches that make women faint. I doubt Iran is going to faint when he talks to them about giving up their nuclear program.

 

[Insomniator]

He'll be a hero in 50 years.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
I know all of you live in this fantasy land where you can make decisions in 100% 20/20 hindsight.. but it doesn't work that way in real life. As President you have to make tough decisions based on the information you have. Once you decide to invade a country you can't just decide to pull out overnight. Most congressman made the same mistakes a Bush did. I know most of you would just sit in the oval office and pass the joint around and hope for world peace.. but the world doesn't work that way.

Obama will make TONS of mistakes as well, and he likely won't admit them either until the very end, if even then. He will also likely make decisions that will cost the lives of 100's if not thousands of U.S. troops as well during his 4-8 years as President. People will likely do stupid things under his command as well (Abu Graib).

We'll see over the next 4 years if Obama is the Great Messiah everyone thinks he is. I think he will find that actually having to make decisions will be a lot more difficult than voting present and writing memoirs. Lets see if he is actually up to the challenge to lead and not just give speeches that make women faint. I doubt Iran is going to faint when he talks to them about giving up their nuclear program.

Agreed.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: Insomniator
He'll be a hero in 50 years.

Almost impossible to prove without waiting 50 years, but my guess, he will be regarded as even a bigger idiot and set the gold standard for the worst President in US history.

Any GWB apologies are far too little far too late. But if you want a real rascal, Cheney is still proudly defiant.

And IMHO, GWB's best hope for redemption may be to regarded as choosing the wrong set of advisers, who like Grant's advisers cleverly looted the country while
Grant remained clueless and not bestirred to reining them in. The same might be said of Harding.

 

[m1ldslide1]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
I know all of you live in this fantasy land where you can make decisions in 100% 20/20 hindsight.. but it doesn't work that way in real life. As President you have to make tough decisions based on the information you have. Once you decide to invade a country you can't just decide to pull out overnight. Most congressman made the same mistakes a Bush did. I know most of you would just sit in the oval office and pass the joint around and hope for world peace.. but the world doesn't work that way.

Obama will make TONS of mistakes as well, and he likely won't admit them either until the very end, if even then. He will also likely make decisions that will cost the lives of 100's if not thousands of U.S. troops as well during his 4-8 years as President. People will likely do stupid things under his command as well (Abu Graib).

We'll see over the next 4 years if Obama is the Great Messiah everyone thinks he is. I think he will find that actually having to make decisions will be a lot more difficult than voting present and writing memoirs. Lets see if he is actually up to the challenge to lead and not just give speeches that make women faint. I doubt Iran is going to faint when he talks to them about giving up their nuclear program.

Interesting - I didn't know the thread was about Obama. Why are you unable to consider the failures of the Bush administration without reacting harshly to the optimism surrounding the incoming president? That's a little odd... maybe you should have that looked into.

Being critical of Bush doesn't require 20/20 hindsight on my part - its merely the apologetic politicians who voted us into Iraq that seem to need that gift. Invading Iraq couldn't have been a more obvious blunder in early 2003 to anybody who wasn't emotionally available to manipulation or beholden to voting constituents who are. This administration should be held accountable for those mistakes and the tactics used to carry them out; conversely the politicians who lent support to those policies of aggression should be held accountable as well. I understand that many congressmen might have voted against their conscience to invade Iraq amidst political pressure, but that is no excuse in my book.

I personally couldn't care less what this man cares to reflect upon as his unfortunate last term comes to a close.

 

[fskimospy]

I doubt Bush will be viewed as the worst president ever in 50 years, as impressions tend to soften over time. I think it is quite likely that he will be viewed as a very poor one however. I imagine his foreign policy will be viewed as a flailing, incoherent response to 9/11. His domestic policy is going to end up with the coda of a large scale economic collapse that he denied right up until the end. He pushed both of these agendas through the exploitation of a low level culture war between the left and right of the country, which helped nothing.

This doesn't all add up to 'worst president ever', but it definitely adds up to 'bad president'.

 

[Genx87]

Nobody knows how he will be viewed in 50 years because nobody knows how Iraq and Afghanistan will turn out. Truman was considered a horrible president when he left office. But now after 50 years people can objectively look at his policies and say he was a decent strong president.

In 50 years I have a feeling whatever Bush did economically will look like childs play considering what is looming on the horizon.

 

[Nik]

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Bush also cited his "disappointment" with the revelations of abuses at the Abu Graib detention camp in Iraq and in never turning up weapons of mass destruction in the country.

That's a crock of shit. July of 2006 or 2007, a document was declassified revealing what we found. Somebody even linked the .gov here on these forums. I was :Q when I saw that. Something like 150,000 WMD's, just not nukes. We have those on satelite photos being carted out the back of nuke development facilities on trucks while the UN inspectors arrived at the front of the building. :roll:

 

[ProfJohn]

Bush is no where near the worst President ever, not even close.

When all is said and done expect him to be in the lower third just about Jimmy Carter.

The long term outcome of Iraq could easily move him up or down the list as well.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Bush also cited his "disappointment" with the revelations of abuses at the Abu Graib detention camp in Iraq and in never turning up weapons of mass destruction in the country.

That's a crock of shit. July of 2006 or 2007, a document was declassified revealing what we found. Somebody even linked the .gov here on these forums. I was :Q when I saw that. Something like 150,000 WMD's, just not nukes. We have those on satelite photos being carted out the back of nuke development facilities on trucks while the UN inspectors arrived at the front of the building. :roll:

You're joking, right?

 

[dartworth]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Bush also cited his "disappointment" with the revelations of abuses at the Abu Graib detention camp in Iraq and in never turning up weapons of mass destruction in the country.

That's a crock of shit. July of 2006 or 2007, a document was declassified revealing what we found. Somebody even linked the .gov here on these forums. I was :Q when I saw that. Something like 150,000 WMD's, just not nukes. We have those on satelite photos being carted out the back of nuke development facilities on trucks while the UN inspectors arrived at the front of the building. :roll:

WTF

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Bush is no where near the worst President ever, not even close.

When all is said and done expect him to be in the lower third just about Jimmy Carter.

The long term outcome of Iraq could easily move him up or down the list as well.

That sounds about right. He's the worst in a while though. I think Carter gets a bit of a bad rap for things that were outside of his control, he inherited a shit economy, and Iran taking hostages was not his personal doing. Granted, he didn't do a great job, but during '76-'80 I don't think even Eisenhower or JFK would have done much better, and I think they're two of our finest.

Abraham Lincoln, while a master of speaking, was a scumbag, and probably our nation's darkest stain.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Bush is no where near the worst President ever, not even close.

When all is said and done expect him to be in the lower third just about Jimmy Carter.

The long term outcome of Iraq could easily move him up or down the list as well.

That sounds about right. He's the worst in a while though. I think Carter gets a bit of a bad rap for things that were outside of his control, he inherited a shit economy, and Iran taking hostages was not his personal doing. Granted, he didn't do a great job, but during '76-'80 I don't think even Eisenhower or JFK would have done much better, and I think they're two of our finest.

Reagan inherited the same shit economy and completely turned it around in 2 years.

Carter lacked the leadership skills to do the same thing, just as Bush lacks certain leadership skills as well. Neither Carter or Bush are very good at motivating the masses.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Bush is no where near the worst President ever, not even close.

When all is said and done expect him to be in the lower third just about Jimmy Carter.

The long term outcome of Iraq could easily move him up or down the list as well.

That sounds about right. He's the worst in a while though. I think Carter gets a bit of a bad rap for things that were outside of his control, he inherited a shit economy, and Iran taking hostages was not his personal doing. Granted, he didn't do a great job, but during '76-'80 I don't think even Eisenhower or JFK would have done much better, and I think they're two of our finest.

Reagan inherited the same shit economy and completely turned it around in 2 years.

Carter lacked the leadership skills to do the same thing, just as Bush lacks certain leadership skills as well. Neither Carter or Bush are very good at motivating the masses.

I'll give you that for sure, neither Carter or Bush ever had that gift that Reagan, JFK, and even Clinton had, the statesman's gift of oratory.

Economies are cyclical, and no policy from the White House can magically turn a crap economy into a good one in two years. The same will be true of Obama. The current downswing wouldn't last forever, even in a hypothetical world where Bush II would be President for 8 more years. I expect things to recover within 1-2 years, and although you'll hear crowing from the Obama supporters, it's more a measure of the cyclical nature of economics than it is the genius or idiocy of varied policy.

There are exceptions to this, but it has to do more with poor policy decisions than anything else. Herbert Hoover and FDR come to mind as two utterly incompetent economic minds, it's just that FDR happened to hang on to power long enough for the economy to eventually turn around (with the aid of a massive increase in industrialization re : WW2 towards the end). If FDR had been in office only from '32-'36, he would have been correctly labeled a serious failure, for inheriting a horrific economy, and taking counterproductive measures to combat it.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
I know all of you live in this fantasy land where you can make decisions in 100% 20/20 hindsight.. but it doesn't work that way in real life. As President you have to make tough decisions based on the information you have. Once you decide to invade a country you can't just decide to pull out overnight. Most congressman made the same mistakes a Bush did. I know most of you would just sit in the oval office and pass the joint around and hope for world peace.. but the world doesn't work that way.

Obama will make TONS of mistakes as well, and he likely won't admit them either until the very end, if even then. He will also likely make decisions that will cost the lives of 100's if not thousands of U.S. troops as well during his 4-8 years as President. People will likely do stupid things under his command as well (Abu Graib).

We'll see over the next 4 years if Obama is the Great Messiah everyone thinks he is. I think he will find that actually having to make decisions will be a lot more difficult than voting present and writing memoirs. Lets see if he is actually up to the challenge to lead and not just give speeches that make women faint. I doubt Iran is going to faint when he talks to them about giving up their nuclear program.

Of course Obama is going to make mistakes. What I hope is that he'll look at a situation and then determine the reality of the situation, then based on the facts and act at need, responding in a rational and well reasoned way. Fortune favors the prepared.

The conclusion I have come to is that Bush decided that in principle that Saddam had to go in absence of hard and current facts. He then constructed a "reality" about his wishes. The aluminum tubes are a perfect and concrete example. When discredited, move on to something else. That's a foolish and common mistake, but when Presidents do it in connection with military action, nations fall and people die.

I believe that there was great thought given to action, but little to whether it was appropriate, or if the consequences warranted the risk of an apparently wished for war.

George Will pointed out that the policy of preemptive war has the implicit moral imperative of correctness. Simply put, a war against a people who have not so far attacked cannot be waged with any justification unless the facts prove it necessary. Those facts must be current, complete and viewed in correct context, unfiltered by agenda. A high standard indeed. These criteria were not met. Consequently, the failure is egregious and manifold. This isn't a momentary lapse like running a stop sign. It's akin to willfully becoming drunk and then driving. They are both "mistakes" and can produce disastrous results, however they aren't equal in magnitude or intent. One can call into question the hindsight of another condemning the consequences of driving under the influence, however that's poor justification.

The unrest, deaths, and subsequent terrorist infiltrations were completely foreseeable. It's just that they weren't important. Getting Saddam at all costs was the mandate, and it was a very high cost indeed.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Bush is no where near the worst President ever, not even close.

When all is said and done expect him to be in the lower third just about Jimmy Carter.

The long term outcome of Iraq could easily move him up or down the list as well.

That sounds about right. He's the worst in a while though. I think Carter gets a bit of a bad rap for things that were outside of his control, he inherited a shit economy, and Iran taking hostages was not his personal doing. Granted, he didn't do a great job, but during '76-'80 I don't think even Eisenhower or JFK would have done much better, and I think they're two of our finest.

Reagan inherited the same shit economy and completely turned it around in 2 years.

Carter lacked the leadership skills to do the same thing, just as Bush lacks certain leadership skills as well. Neither Carter or Bush are very good at motivating the masses.

Wait, haven't you said before that the president has limited ability to affect the economy? Which one is it?

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
I know all of you live in this fantasy land where you can make decisions in 100% 20/20 hindsight.. but it doesn't work that way in real life. As President you have to make tough decisions based on the information you have. Once you decide to invade a country you can't just decide to pull out overnight. Most congressman made the same mistakes a Bush did. I know most of you would just sit in the oval office and pass the joint around and hope for world peace.. but the world doesn't work that way.

Obama will make TONS of mistakes as well, and he likely won't admit them either until the very end, if even then. He will also likely make decisions that will cost the lives of 100's if not thousands of U.S. troops as well during his 4-8 years as President. People will likely do stupid things under his command as well (Abu Graib).

We'll see over the next 4 years if Obama is the Great Messiah everyone thinks he is. I think he will find that actually having to make decisions will be a lot more difficult than voting present and writing memoirs. Lets see if he is actually up to the challenge to lead and not just give speeches that make women faint. I doubt Iran is going to faint when he talks to them about giving up their nuclear program.

Agreed.

Same.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
I know all of you live in this fantasy land where you can make decisions in 100% 20/20 hindsight.. but it doesn't work that way in real life. As President you have to make tough decisions based on the information you have. Once you decide to invade a country you can't just decide to pull out overnight. Most congressman made the same mistakes a Bush did. I know most of you would just sit in the oval office and pass the joint around and hope for world peace.. but the world doesn't work that way.

Obama will make TONS of mistakes as well, and he likely won't admit them either until the very end, if even then. He will also likely make decisions that will cost the lives of 100's if not thousands of U.S. troops as well during his 4-8 years as President. People will likely do stupid things under his command as well (Abu Graib).

We'll see over the next 4 years if Obama is the Great Messiah everyone thinks he is. I think he will find that actually having to make decisions will be a lot more difficult than voting present and writing memoirs. Lets see if he is actually up to the challenge to lead and not just give speeches that make women faint. I doubt Iran is going to faint when he talks to them about giving up their nuclear program.

Agreed.

Same.

FAIL.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
I know all of you live in this fantasy land where you can make decisions in 100% 20/20 hindsight.. but it doesn't work that way in real life. As President you have to make tough decisions based on the information you have. Once you decide to invade a country you can't just decide to pull out overnight. Most congressman made the same mistakes a Bush did. I know most of you would just sit in the oval office and pass the joint around and hope for world peace.. but the world doesn't work that way.

Obama will make TONS of mistakes as well, and he likely won't admit them either until the very end, if even then. He will also likely make decisions that will cost the lives of 100's if not thousands of U.S. troops as well during his 4-8 years as President. People will likely do stupid things under his command as well (Abu Graib).

We'll see over the next 4 years if Obama is the Great Messiah everyone thinks he is. I think he will find that actually having to make decisions will be a lot more difficult than voting present and writing memoirs. Lets see if he is actually up to the challenge to lead and not just give speeches that make women faint. I doubt Iran is going to faint when he talks to them about giving up their nuclear program.

Agreed.

Same.

FAIL.

Agreed (with fail).

Particularly with respect to Abu Gharib being some sort of abberation: http://www.aclu.org/safefree/g.../19913leg20050712.html

It was a top down result of the "whatever it takes" mentality pushed by Bush. Morally ambivalent Clinton parsed words about what defined sex. Morally ambivalent Bush & Co turned torture into a semantics debate. Joe Scarborough this morning had the gall to chastize a guest for stating that sleep deprivation is a form of torture. He called her understanding "sophmoric." Joe is clearly an idiot with a 14th century mindset who thinks if you don't tie someone up to a rack or apply red hot irons then you aren't torturing them. Keeping someone awake for a week straight and forcing them into stress positions accompanied with disorienting sounds and use of lighting in a 100+ degree room can drive someone quite insane without a single beating, thanks.

If Obama doesn't follow through on closing Gitmo and defends the use of such techniques I will damn him just as equally.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

It doesn't take 20/20 hindsight to see Bush's screw-ups, the vast majority of them were obviously so at the time he made them.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Topic Title: As Bush prepares to leave office...

Make sure to strap tracking devices around his ankle and those of his his gang of criminals so we know where to find them when they're charged, tried and convicted for treason, murder and torture and other war crimes and crimes agaist humanity.

Once they're convicted we can use them to track their movements around guantanamo and feed the show live to youtube. Maybe, someone will make a better game of the video than the ones where he's ducking flying shoes.