Article supports contention that Covid-19 was spilled from the Wuhan lab

Muse

Lifer
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What really went on inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid erupted​


Fresh evidence drawn from confidential files reveals Chinese scientists spliced together deadly pathogens shortly before the pandemic, the Sunday Times Insight team report​



It's been my idea since a few months after the pandemic started. I read an account by a non-Chinese man who was there and privy to insider info and the evidence was considerable. The above linked article is consistent with what I have heard. No zoonotic source has been found AFAIK, and that alone makes the Wuhan lab highly suspect. The article seems to go way beyond speculation.

I heard things like this too:

"They found evidence that researchers working on these experiments were taken to hospital with Covid-like symptoms in November 2019 — a month before the West became aware of the pandemic — and one of their relatives died."

The source I had a few months after the pandemic was declared noted that the head of the virus project at the Wuhan lab mysteriously disappeared in late 2019 and the Chinese tried to obliterate records of her very existence. She as well as other lab people had gotten ill and who knows what happened to them?
 
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abj13

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This was posted in the larger leak conspiracy theory thread. I already commented on many of the misconceptions, deceptions, and erroneous claims made by the authors of this "story."


My favorite claim from the article was this:

"The investigators spoke to a Wuhan institute insider who alleged serial passaging experiments were being carried out on RaTG13. “Humanised mice with the serial passaging is a toxic combination,” said a source. “It speeds up the natural mutation process. So instead of taking years to mutate, it can take weeks or months. It guarantees that you accelerate the natural process.”

I've actually talked about how idiotic this claim is, yet the authors go ahead and make it. To mutate RaTG13 into SARS-CoV-2 takes approximately 1,000 mutations to occur. After 3 years of SARS-CoV-2 circulating in human populations, with probably 1+ billion infections, how many mutations have developed? Approximately 50 mutations. How in the world are you going to "serially" passage something, develop ~1,000 mutations, when SARS-CoV-2 couldn't develop more than a 100 mutations after a billion infections and circulating in humans for 3 years???
 

Zor Prime

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Nov 7, 1999
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I was on the east coast at the time and my girlfriend was on the west coast in California. She told me that a few weeks before COVID became a national headline a lot of the people in her workplace at the school district she was working for came down with classic COVID symptoms (that we now know.) A whole bunch of people came down with 'something' almost at the same time. It got so bad for her that her daughter was checking in on her every hour for days just to see if she was still breathing, she damn near died. She went to see doctors but at the time whatever they all had apparently wasn't being properly diagnosed.

From her experience and workplace observation I'm definitely inclined to think it had already reached the west coast of America before it got media attention.
 

abj13

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I was on the east coast at the time and my girlfriend was on the west coast in California. She told me that a few weeks before COVID became a national headline a lot of the people in her workplace at the school district she was working for came down with classic COVID symptoms (that we now know.) A whole bunch of people came down with 'something' almost at the same time. It got so bad for her that her daughter was checking in on her every hour for days just to see if she was still breathing, she damn near died. She went to see doctors but at the time whatever they all had apparently wasn't being properly diagnosed.

From her experience and workplace observation I'm definitely inclined to think it had already reached the west coast of America before it got media attention.
Depending on the timeline you are mentioning, there's some evidence that SARS-CoV-2 was circulating in Americans as early as December 2019. Similar evidence also suggests it reached Italy in December too.
 

Muse

Lifer
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I was on the east coast at the time and my girlfriend was on the west coast in California. She told me that a few weeks before COVID became a national headline a lot of the people in her workplace at the school district she was working for came down with classic COVID symptoms (that we now know.) A whole bunch of people came down with 'something' almost at the same time. It got so bad for her that her daughter was checking in on her every hour for days just to see if she was still breathing, she damn near died. She went to see doctors but at the time whatever they all had apparently wasn't being properly diagnosed.

From her experience and workplace observation I'm definitely inclined to think it had already reached the west coast of America before it got media attention.
Can you provide dates here?

The last time I was sick in any way was in November 2019. I live in Berkeley and I made a shopping trip inland into the East Bay. I got sick a few days later. The S.F. Bay Area is a travel hub. People fly in from Asia very considerably, I'm thinking likely more than any other place in the U.S.A. My illness was a particularly long and difficult (for me) upper respiratory infection. I think it might have been Covid-19.

A first cousin of mine died in Manhattan in February 2020 from a URI. He was relatively young, healthy. He told his sister the day before he died that it was the worst cold he ever had. The slightest activity left him completely exhausted. Authorities did not attribute his death to covid-19, they declared that it was not in New York City. At the time I don't believe they had any way of testing for it. His sister is convinced he had covid-19, and I think this likely true, based on what I know.
 
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Moonbeam

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I was on the east coast at the time and my girlfriend was on the west coast in California. She told me that a few weeks before COVID became a national headline a lot of the people in her workplace at the school district she was working for came down with classic COVID symptoms (that we now know.) A whole bunch of people came down with 'something' almost at the same time. It got so bad for her that her daughter was checking in on her every hour for days just to see if she was still breathing, she damn near died. She went to see doctors but at the time whatever they all had apparently wasn't being properly diagnosed.

From her experience and workplace observation I'm definitely inclined to think it had already reached the west coast of America before it got media attention.
I think I got it in Feb of 2019 but have no idea now having been vaccinated if I had antibodies that could tell me today.
 
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Zor Prime

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Can you provide dates here?

The last time I was sick in any way was in November 2019. I live in Berkeley and I made a shopping trip inland into the East Bay. I got sick a few days later. The S.F. Bay Area is a travel hub. People fly in from Asia very considerably, I'm thinking likely more than any other place in the U.S.A. My illness was a particularly long and difficult (for me) upper respiratory infection. I think it might have been Covid-19.

A first cousin of mine died in Manhattan in February 2020 from a URI. He was relatively young, healthy. He told his sister the day before he died that it was the worst cold he ever had. The slightest activity left him completely exhausted. Authorities did not attribute his death to covid-19, they declared that it was not in New York City. At the time I don't believe they had any way of testing for it. His sister is convinced he had covid-19, and I this likely true, based on what I know.
Sorry to hear about the cousin. That's very sudden. His sister is probably right.

Since you asked, I asked her about the dates. It's been a while and it wasn't my experience so I didn't remember the intricacies anymore. This is what I got: (I asked her questions and wrote data down as she spoke)

She said she first started to feel bad in late November (2019.) She said she thought she was starting to feel better over the following couple weeks but either relapsed or it finally dug in and kicked her ass come December 14th or so. She said she didn't start to feel normal and well again until January, 2020. So it looks like her overall experience was approximately 2 months.

She was driving school buses and told me that the bus she was driving almost always had its seat full of 78 kids. Even kids normally never really sick began missing school for over a week at a time starting in October, 2019. Her typically almost always full bus of students dropped from 78 students down to about 50 students beginning in October, 2019. So, student participation at least on one bus dropped approx. 1/3rd.

It might sound weird as hell but she swears that she transferred it to the guinea pig and the dog in the house.

When she did go see the doctor she said her O2 level was discovered to be 70. The doctor asked how she was still walking. She said she could only walk about 2 car lengths before having to take a break and get her breath back.

The doctor evaluated her and told her that she did not have pneumonia, nor bronchitis, but some sort of unknown respiratory infection they had not seen before. They also noted she had low blood pressure and low core temp. Both, the low blood pressure and lower core temp, have persisted to this day. I'll be sitting around basically naked, comfortable or hot, and she's wrapped up in a blanket next to me.

After the fact looking back, she has what are supposedly called "covid nails," bright white under the nails where there's supposed to be pink. Her nails were never bright white like that prior. When she was afflicted, she said her hair was coming out in clumps. Not going bald, just hair coming out like it never had, and never has since.

When it was announced Covid-19 was going around she noticed that the Fresno County area had lower infection rates than a lot of places. She imagines that Fresno County had already been afflicted sooner than other places so herd immunity was underway at a quicker clip.

Apparently I was wrong when I said for about a week she had her daughter check in on her hourly -- it was every 2 hours. She was afraid she was going to go to sleep and not wake up. They had alarms going every 2 hours to see if she was alive. She said one time it was very difficult for her daughter to wake her up and she (the daughter) was starting to think she (my girlfriend) truly was dead.
 
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cytg111

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What are you gonna do every other hour but wake her up and destroy a much needed sleep cycle?
 
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[DHT]Osiris

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This was posted in the larger leak conspiracy theory thread. I already commented on many of the misconceptions, deceptions, and erroneous claims made by the authors of this "story."


My favorite claim from the article was this:

"The investigators spoke to a Wuhan institute insider who alleged serial passaging experiments were being carried out on RaTG13. “Humanised mice with the serial passaging is a toxic combination,” said a source. “It speeds up the natural mutation process. So instead of taking years to mutate, it can take weeks or months. It guarantees that you accelerate the natural process.”

I've actually talked about how idiotic this claim is, yet the authors go ahead and make it. To mutate RaTG13 into SARS-CoV-2 takes approximately 1,000 mutations to occur. After 3 years of SARS-CoV-2 circulating in human populations, with probably 1+ billion infections, how many mutations have developed? Approximately 50 mutations. How in the world are you going to "serially" passage something, develop ~1,000 mutations, when SARS-CoV-2 couldn't develop more than a 100 mutations after a billion infections and circulating in humans for 3 years???
Not to devil's advocate too much here (and well out of my depth in the subject matter), but how many mice did they have and in what proximity to each other? 10,000 mice in a big bin would probably create a very fast mutation rate with something as infectious as even the mk1 covid strain. Second point, maybe they just got lucky/unlucky? This whole thing was perceived to be a one in a million jump as it is, why couldn't it be one in a million from a lab event?
 
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Zor Prime

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What are you gonna do every other hour but wake her up and destroy a much needed sleep cycle?
Verification of death.

Gonna go out on a limb here and suspicion that being concerned about a sleep cycle takes a back seat to worrying about being dead. lol
 

Oric

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There was a very strong flu virus in the Fall of 2019, my friends from Arizona came down with it, they visited us just when they recovered and we went down with it, but it was no COVID (which I experienced in 2021)
 
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Muse

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There was a very strong flu virus in the Fall of 2019, my friends from Arizona came down with it, they visited us just when they recovered and we went down with it, but it was no COVID (which I experienced in 2021)
I may well have had flu. I was very likely vaccinated against that season's flu at the time. I'll never know what it was I suppose.

Anyway, the subject here is "speculation" that the Chinese engineered covid-19 and accidently spilled it from the Wuhan lab. The fact that the Chinese have been anything but transparent with facts concerning all this suggests they are trying to hide something(s).
 

Pens1566

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There was a very strong flu virus in the Fall of 2019, my friends from Arizona came down with it, they visited us just when they recovered and we went down with it, but it was no COVID (which I experienced in 2021)

This ^. So bad that some of our local (not a travel hub by any means) schools were closed due to concerns. There were no crazy amount of deaths/ICUs overrun/ECMO patients that were seen in all the verified covid waves.

I think this "oh, my sister's brother's cousin's uncle's grandma's nephew had covid in nov 19" phenomenon is similar to how about 3B people claim to have been at the original Woodstock.
 
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fskimospy

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This ^. So bad that some of our local (not a travel hub by any means) schools were closed due to concerns. There were no crazy amount of deaths/ICUs overrun/ECMO patients that were seen in all the verified covid waves.

I think this "oh, my sister's brother's cousin's uncle's grandma's nephew had covid in nov 19" phenomenon is similar to how about 3B people claim to have been at the original Woodstock.
Yes, I think there’s a definite thing here where people think any illness they got in late 2019 to early 2020 was COVID. That being said, in January 2020 both my wife and I got probably the worst cold-like illness either of us have ever had, for her bad enough we had to take her to the hospital.

Could definitely have been the flu or whatever but the timing is suspicious.
 

abj13

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Not to devil's advocate too much here (and well out of my depth in the subject matter), but how many mice did they have and in what proximity to each other? 10,000 mice in a big bin would probably create a very fast mutation rate with something as infectious as even the mk1 covid strain. Second point, maybe they just got lucky/unlucky? This whole thing was perceived to be a one in a million jump as it is, why couldn't it be one in a million from a lab event?
I would argue that if you are a researcher back in 2010-2019, and you have access to a variety of coronaviruses and you have millions of dollars to perform research, what virus are you going to study? Are you going to study SARS-CoV-1 that caused a world-wide scare with a relatively high mortality rate and related coronaviruses? Are you going to study MERS which has an exceptionally high mortality rate? Or will it be bat coronaviruses related to MERS or CoV-1? No, you are going to pick a random coronavirus that was from a bat, pangolin, whatever animal you want, that is distantly related to other coronaviruses, has no known capacity to infect humans, and then you are going to invest your research money and time into this random strain?

Not only are you going to study this random strain, but then you're going to invest years of work to engineer it?

Or if you put it in a bucket of 10,000 mice, a species that isn't the most conducive to coronavirus infection (e.g. CoV-1 or CoV-2) and hope it mutates at 10x-100x the rate it did in billions of humans? When they did that with SARS-CoV-1 (not in a bucket, but a controlled experiment), it became adapted to mice.

If we are going to entertain rare events, how do we know Optimus Prime wasn't walking around Wuhan, fell over and tried to die in a ditch, and spread it to nearby onlookers? What if Vincent Vega didn't get shot by Butch, still had the briefcase, opened it in Wuhan, and it turned out the briefcase contained SARS-CoV-2? There does come a point in which invoking rare events has to have some level of plausibility, especially when there are scenarios that are far more plausible.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
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This ^. So bad that some of our local (not a travel hub by any means) schools were closed due to concerns. There were no crazy amount of deaths/ICUs overrun/ECMO patients that were seen in all the verified covid waves.

I think this "oh, my sister's brother's cousin's uncle's grandma's nephew had covid in nov 19" phenomenon is similar to how about 3B people claim to have been at the original Woodstock.
Not a lot of healthy young in shape people were dying overnight from the flu in Feb. 2020 in New York City. I think my cousin had covid-19. He was participating in giant soap bubble creation fun fests in Central Park in which people basically shared the air that went into those bubbles. Many there were overseas travelers. They shared pathogens, a recipe for global infection spread. He may have caught something else but the description of his symptoms to me by his sister had me thinking it sounded very much like covid-19. I was paying a whole lot of attention to the pandemic for the first year. Personally, I've never been sick like that, not even close.
 
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dank69

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Let's pretend Wuhan cooked up COVID on purpose and accidentally released it on their own population or even on purpose. What do you propose we do about it?

Hint: There would be very little we could do about it, even if we wanted to.

So I am going to tell you the same thing I tell my gullible conservative mother when she tries to bring this up: You are letting people manipulate you. There are 100,000 more important issues to be concerned about and every single one of them has to do with Republicans trying to kill you for profit.
 

Muse

Lifer
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Let's pretend Wuhan cooked up COVID on purpose and accidentally released it on their own population or even on purpose. What do you propose we do about it?

Hint: There would be very little we could do about it, even if we wanted to.

So I am going to tell you the same thing I tell my gullible conservative mother when she tries to bring this up: You are letting people manipulate you. There are 100,000 more important issues to be concerned about and every single one of them has to do with Republicans trying to kill you for profit.
Republicans are our biggest problem in the USA, yes, but we have external enemies too. Russia and China are serious bad actors. Russia in particular is out to destroy us. I don't think SARS-COV-2 was created to destroy us or intentionally released. I think it may have been at least semi-intentionally created in the Wuhan lab and accidentally released. The question of did it happen like that or was it a natural process is important if we don't want this sort of thing happening again. This pandemic may not have killed you, you may not have contracted covid-19 (I don't seem to have), but it did affect you. The world economy impacts are still being felt considerably. We have not recovered yet. There's even a chance that covid-19 will resurge in a major way. Pining down how this happened is not simply an academic exercise.
 
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dank69

Lifer
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Republicans are our biggest problem in the USA, yes, but we have external enemies too. Russia and China are serious bad actors. Russia in particular is out to destroy us. I don't think SARS-COV-2 was created to destroy us or intentionally released. I think it may have been at least semi-intentionally created in the Wuhan lab and accidentally released. The question of did it happen like that or was it a natural process is important if we don't want this sort of thing happening again. This pandemic may not have killed you, you may not have contracted covid-19 (I don't seem to have), but it did affect you. The world economy impacts are still being felt considerably. We have not recovered yet. There's even a chance that covid-19 will resurge in a major way. Pining down how this happened is not simply an academic exercise.
Again, I ask you, what do you think you are going to do about it once you "pin it down"?
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
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Not a lot of healthy young in shape people were dying overnight from the flu in Feb. 2020 in New York City. I think my cousin had covid-19. He was participating in giant soap bubble creation fun fests in Central Park in which people basically shared the air that went into those bubbles. Many there were overseas travelers. They shared pathogens, a recipe for global infection spread. He may have caught something else but the description of his symptoms to me by his sister had me thinking it sounded very much like covid-19. I was paying a whole lot of attention to the pandemic for the first year. Personally, I've never been sick like that, not even close.

The stats (and samples) simply don't support much of the reported "early" covid infections. When it hit, it was painfully obvious.
 
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Stokely

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It's good to find out where it came from, to hopefully prevent it happening again.

The idea that anyone "released" it on purpose is insane, considering it affected everyone. But that's conspiracy thinking for you.

The origin should have nothing to do with "what do we do about it now" but again people are idiots. "We don't have to take measures to prevent infection because it came from a Chinese lab!" How stupid does that sound?
 

Muse

Lifer
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Again, I ask you, what do you think you are going to do about it once you "pin it down"?
For one thing USA entities can stop funding Chinese research into virus research of this kind. We can also ramp up pressure on the Chinese for more transparency in their affairs. That's in order, viruses or not, but knowing that they created the virus and accidentally let it slip from their lab would certainly add to our diplomatic ammunition. We live in a world of mutual dependency. Authoritarianism anywhere is a global problem. We can't, shouldn't just think it's their problem, not ours.
 
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dank69

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For one thing USA entities can stop funding Chinese research into virus research of this kind. We can also ramp up pressure on the Chinese for more transparency in their affairs. That's in order, viruses or not, but knowing that they created the virus and accidentally let it slip from their lab would add to our diplomatic ammunition.
Ramp up the pressure, lol. The Chinese government doesn't give a fuck about any pressure we apply to them. Stopping funding seems to me would mean we get less access to what they are doing. Seems counterproductive.