Article about animal homosexuality

[AreaCode707]

Text

At first glance I find this to be a pretty well-written article but I didn't examine it for loopholes, just skimmed it in the course of my reading. I'm part of the religious right, so I am not in support of human homosexuality, and I found the article to be interesting because, while I disagreed with the implications throughout the majority of the article, I appreciated the cautions voiced at the end about drawing conclusions from animal behavior. But it did seem to include both sides pretty well.

 

[Martin]

It doesn't matter what the america hating liberals in SF think, we must protect the sanctity of marriage! After all, Britney Spears said believes in it!

 

[Dman877]

Originally posted by: HotChic
Text

I'm part of the religious right, so I am not in support of human homosexuality...

I'm curious, who do the religious right think created gay people? God created man right? so if god made gay men and women, it must be ok.. right? Or did the devil make gay people? or does the religious right think gay people choose to be gay...?

 

[chess9]

When did the religious right start THINKING?

It wasn't on Hannity and Colmes, so I don't think it happened.

EDIT: Uh, oh! CAUTION, WARNING, PLEASE GIRD YOURSELF FOR THE ULTIMATE IN DEPRAVITY. Two gay males nurturing a baby. It just ain't right.


-Robert

 

[TheBDB]

So are all these animals choosing to be gay because of bad parenting/lack of Jesus/etc. just like all the human homosexuals according to the religious right?

 

[Pliablemoose]

From the article:

Bonobos ape females have been observed to engage in homosexual activity almost hourly.

I have so many things I'd like to post about this, but nearly all of them would get me banned:Q

 

[SNC]

So I guess you are saying that if an animal does it its OK?
Dman, God made murders and rapest too. Are you saying there ok then?

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
From the article:

Bonobos ape females have been observed to engage in homosexual activity almost hourly.

I have so many things I'd like to post about this, but nearly all of them would get me banned:Q

Good old Bonobo apes and their crazy rubbing...If you take sociology at Cal, you'll learn about this on the first day

BTW, what prompted the AT Moderator to edit the original post?

 

[chess9]

You can come out now HotChic!

We promise we'll be good.

(But you really shouldn't have gotten us all so excited with this deviant sex talk. If Moonbeam sees this...ooooh, I shudder to think of the consequences....)

-Robert

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: SNC
So I guess you are saying that if an animal does it its OK?
Dman, God made murders and rapest too. Are you saying there ok then?

I think the most pertinent point about such studies is whether people are born as Homosexuals or not. Your comparison to murderers and rapists is disingenuous, as those people most certainly are not born as such. They may eventually commit such acts, but it isn't an instinctual thing.

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: SNC
So I guess you are saying that if an animal does it its OK?
Dman, God made murders and rapest too. Are you saying there ok then?

I think the most pertinent point about such studies is whether people are born as Homosexuals or not. Your comparison to murderers and rapists is disingenuous, as those people most certainly are not born as such. They may eventually commit such acts, but it isn't an instinctual thing.

Animals kill and rape each other all the time...

(The response I'm hoping for: "But not with nuclear arms! You can't hug a child with nuclear arms!" )

 

[StormRider]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: SNC
So I guess you are saying that if an animal does it its OK?
Dman, God made murders and rapest too. Are you saying there ok then?

I think the most pertinent point about such studies is whether people are born as Homosexuals or not. Your comparison to murderers and rapists is disingenuous, as those people most certainly are not born as such. They may eventually commit such acts, but it isn't an instinctual thing.

Actually I think some people are born this way. Some people seem to lack empathy for others and would have no problem killing someone.

 

[nutxo]

I find the bigotry displayed in this thread hilarious and enlightening :beer:

 

[AreaCode707]

I think we're all instinctually programmed to do what we want. That ranges from sexual behavior to stealing. I also am dubious about sexuality being an solidly inborn thing - I think we're likely born with sexual tendencies one way or the other but that culture shapes it greatly, whether hetero or homo sexual. Take, for example, other peoples whose cultures have endorsed homosexuality as a normal practice.

I happen to take the stand that people can control their sexual behavior much more than our society tends to assume they can, and that means hetero and homo sexuals as well married and unmarried people of any age. I don't particularly care what the base of sexuality is. I think that civilization progresses more when people choose to control their sexual behavior. With that conclusion, the article about animal homosexuality is something I find interesting but I don't agree with the people who would then say it is natural and hence permissable.

 

[wkabel23]

Arguing about whether or not homosexualy is inherent in some humans is moot untill we have more research.

 

[Dman877]

Originally posted by: SNC
So I guess you are saying that if an animal does it its OK?
Dman, God made murders and rapest too. Are you saying there ok then?

I don't believe in the christian concept of god. I was asking the poster about the origins of the christian right belief that homosexuality is wrong and the justification for this belief.

In my opinion, humans have the ability to do a wide range of things, all of which, whether judged by other humans as good or bad, are neither right nor wrong, they just are. Someone kills someone else, the world keeps turning, no one goes to heavan or hell, Allah isn't pissed etc etc. I think it's funny when people condemn rape and murder but then support wars in Afghanastan and Iraq in which we murder thousands...

 

[TheBDB]

It doesn't matter whether homesexuality is natural or not. If you use the definition of natural to be things that are common in nature then as stated rape and murder are natural. The difference between these things and homosexuality is rape and murder are harmful to other people. That is why society decides to make them unacceptable behavior. I don't see how homosexuality harms me in any way, which is why I don't have a problem with it.

 

[Dman877]

Originally posted by: TheBDB
It doesn't matter whether homesexuality is natural or not. If you use the definition of natural to be things that are common in nature then as stated rape and murder are natural. The difference between these things and homosexuality is rape and murder are harmful to other people. That is why society decides to make them unacceptable behavior. I don't see how homosexuality harms me in any way, which is why I don't have a problem with it.

Exactly.

 

[chess9]

When stones tell us why they are stones, we will know what is natural.

Until then, I'm in favor of taking what the Gods have given without complaint or criticism.

And, even when we know whether it is nature or nurture or some percentage of each thereof, why should we commit the mortal sin of judging those who love differently from us? Let God make her judgment after she returns from bowling practice.

-Robert

 

[Bitek]

As far as the nature/nurture arguement goes, I see it as this:

Children have little interest in the opposite sex, then suddenly something turns on at puberty, and they are all the world. Normally, little boys start to like little girls (and vice versa.) Now what causes this? Presumably some hormone comes on, flips a switch and causes this change. Now what if for gays, there is some variation and causes the opposite switch to be turned on? All the genes to make a woman are present in a man, so why cannot this be so?

The arguement that homosexuality is just choice, and not a deep seating feeling or desire brings some disturbing consequences. To say that one's sexual inclinations are just a product of social conditioning, as a means to invalidate them, falsifies not only homesexual behavior, but heterosexual behavior as well.
You would then have to say the love I have for my wife is not real, but the outcome of this same conditioning that I have chose not to rebel against.

In the end, where does my love for her (woman) really come from? I do not know, I just feel it as a fiber of my being, just as my my need for food and drink. I can only guess the feelings of a gay person, I do not understand them. But I can empathize their feelings are just as integral to their being as my love for woman is to mine.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: TheBDB
It doesn't matter whether homesexuality is natural or not. If you use the definition of natural to be things that are common in nature then as stated rape and murder are natural. The difference between these things and homosexuality is rape and murder are harmful to other people. That is why society decides to make them unacceptable behavior. I don't see how homosexuality harms me in any way, which is why I don't have a problem with it.

Actually, Murder(killing of one's own kind) is very rare in Nature. Rape really depends on how you define it, social norms vary greatly in Nature, some species pair off into Monogamous relationships, others don't.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Hafen
As far as the nature/nurture arguement goes, I see it as this:

Children have little interest in the opposite sex, then suddenly something turns on at puberty, and they are all the world. Normally, little boys start to like little girls (and vice versa.) Now what causes this? Presumably some hormone comes on, flips a switch and causes this change. Now what if for gays, there is some variation and causes the opposite switch to be turned on? All the genes to make a woman are present in a man, so why cannot this be so?

The arguement that homosexuality is just choice, and not a deep seating feeling or desire brings some disturbing consequences. To say that one's sexual inclinations are just a product of social conditioning, as a means to invalidate them, falsifies not only homesexual behavior, but heterosexual behavior as well.
You would then have to say the love I have for my wife is not real, but the outcome of this same conditioning that I have chose not to rebel against.

In the end, where does my love for her (woman) really come from? I do not know, I just feel it as a fiber of my being, just as my my need for food and drink. I can only guess the feelings of a gay person, I do not understand them. But I can empathize their feelings are just as integral to their being as my love for woman is to mine.

I personally feel that Homosexuality is a little of both. Some, as you say, are hardwired that way. Some choose to be that way or learn it.

 

[ReiAyanami]

Let's take a completely secular view (Darwinian perspective):

In the article from the first post it mentions two gay penguins that tried to nurse a rock, pretending it was an egg. No matter how long they sit on that rock, it will never hatch.

Theoretically if it were genetic, then

From a purely Darwinian perspective:
1) Heterosexuality is rewarded with offspring.
2) Bisexualality is still rewarded with offspring, but that the same-sex interactions are not beneficial and are at best benign.
3) Homosexuality is punished with no offspring.

Homosexuality is not logical from a Darwinian perspective. In theory if it were simply genetic, then homosexuality would cancel itself out within a few generations. Therefore it is not mere genetics but most likely a constant reoccuring phenomenom among animals in which slight genetic variation that occurs post conception changes the offsprings' sexual orientation to something other than it's parents.

 

[TheBDB]

Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
Let's take a completely secular view (Darwinian perspective):

In the article from the first post it mentions two gay penguins that tried to nurse a rock, pretending it was an egg. No matter how long they sit on that rock, it will never hatch.

Theoretically if it were genetic, then

From a purely Darwinian perspective:
1) Heterosexuality is rewarded with offspring.
2) Bisexualality is still rewarded with offspring, but that the same-sex interactions are not beneficial and are at best benign.
3) Homosexuality is punished with no offspring.

Homosexuality is not logical from a Darwinian perspective. In theory if it were simply genetic, then homosexuality would cancel itself out within a few generations. Therefore it is not mere genetics but most likely a constant reoccuring phenomenom among animals in which slight genetic variation that occurs post conception changes the offsprings' sexual orientation to something other than it's parents.

That is not quite true. If a certain trait is to the benefit of the entire species but a detriment to those individuals who carry it it is still possible for it to be passed on. I'm not saying homosexuality is a benefit to our species, just that your logic is untrue. Read a book like Nature via Nurture by Matt Ridley to learn more about genetics.

 

[TheBDB]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: TheBDB
It doesn't matter whether homesexuality is natural or not. If you use the definition of natural to be things that are common in nature then as stated rape and murder are natural. The difference between these things and homosexuality is rape and murder are harmful to other people. That is why society decides to make them unacceptable behavior. I don't see how homosexuality harms me in any way, which is why I don't have a problem with it.

Actually, Murder(killing of one's own kind) is very rare in Nature. Rape really depends on how you define it, social norms vary greatly in Nature, some species pair off into Monogamous relationships, others don't.

About half of all male chimps are killed by other chimps. Just one example of how common murder is.