Armed Woman Intervenes, Prevents Mass Murder

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Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,432
691
136
4. Do you have any solid evidence to support a teacher who is carrying is more likely to be successful in defending against an active shooter than even the most poorly trained police officer (a somewhat inane point to even discuss honestly)
I just thought it was funny. No, I don't, but it's more to the point if a teacher wants a gun. A cop or SRO is signing up probably for the middle class paycheck and knows that something like this is remote.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,067
3,790
136
I just thought it was funny. No, I don't, but it's more to the point if a teacher wants a gun. A cop or SRO is signing up probably for the middle class paycheck and knows that something like this is remote.
I totally agree with your last point, which is why I wholeheartedly think police response or SROs are clearly the wrong answer for this problem.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
69,021
4,786
126
I don't want to live in a society where you must be armed to the teeth everywhere you go in order to feel reasonably safe. That's not a civilized society.

If I had to choose between arming loved ones or passing policies that make it so I don't have to arm loved ones, I'd choose the latter 100% of the time.
Yes and if frogs had no hind legs they would bump their asses off.
 

dawp

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
11,064
2,314
136
If you increase the number of guns you'll also increase the number of children gaining access to guns.
not only will you increase the number of kids with access to guns, you will increase the number of guns on the black market.
 
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Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,193
4,399
136
And this applies to children being butchered in a school how exactly? Have we moved past teachers and now need to arm the actual kids?

The anti-gun guys aren't the ones with a comprehension issue here. It is not unreasonable to expect law enforcement to do their fucking jobs when they are on location. They understood the danger because some of them attempted to rescue their own children.

So no, let's focus on the dysfunction of cowards and hypocrites who through dereliction of duty allowed so much death. People outraged over small children being executed at school understand things just fine. That whole department should be fired with extreme prejudice, and I'd like to start seeing LEOs held accountable for this kind of cowardice.
1. The cops are often too late and useless. True for Columbine in 99, true last week.


2. Because making the root cause of all shootings solely access to guns isn't going to solve the problem, and isn't going to get the 2A crowd on board with reforms.

On MSNBC and CNN it's wall to wall gun ban discussions, and on Fox it's mental health and... crazy stuff. Each side completely dismisses the view point of the other.

In reality, the problem is much more difficult than either imagines, but neither side is really moving out of their old familiar talking points, which hasn't solved the problem in 23 years.

Lastly, people have a right to self defense. You take away all the guns, and you still have other weapons. How do you level the field for a woman being stalked and attacked by a violent man?

Does this woman live if she didn't have a gun? Man only had his strength, anger and a knife he finds. This is what the 2A protects against. No law will invalidate this right, so broad bans are useless as a basis of policy.
 
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purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
51,849
4,316
126
Can you imagine if the person with the AR15 didn't have easy access to it?

We wouldn't even be hearing about this story and people would have gone on with their business with no incident.

But nope, a good guy with a gun is a better solution in many people's eyes.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,193
4,399
136
..
4. Do you have any solid evidence to support a teacher who is carrying is more likely to be successful in defending against an active shooter than even the most poorly trained police officer (a somewhat inane point to even discuss honestly)
1. The teacher is actually there and being forced into action. Some would want something better than a thrown chair or book to protect themselves with.

2. Realistically tho, I don't think many people will want this responsibility. Can't imagine the legal and insurance hell if Ms Crabapple accidently shot Timmy when trying to the defend class.

3. Given that it's probably never going to be as thing, and will be a locally decided matter anyway, what's the harm in using it as a bargaining chip to get other concessions from Republicans?

4. There have certainly been instances where armed citizens have stopped shooters.

One horror is school shootings, but church shootings have also been a motif.

In one Texas church, volunteers created an armed security force, and a shooter was killed within seconds (not minutes to hrs when you call the police.)

Video captured the whole scene and it's as scary as hell. Lots of lives saved by quick action. 6 seconds before the shooter is dead and can't kill anyone else. I'd directly link a YT if I could find one that doesn't edit the video.

https://nypost.com/2019/12/30/texas-man-jack-wilson-identified-as-hero-who-shot-gunman-inside-church/
 
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nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
54,488
7,090
126
3. Given that it's probably never going to be as thing, and will be a locally decided matter anyway, what's the harm in using it as a bargaining chip to get other concessions from Republicans?
lawl

I'd also like a unicorn while we're at it.
 
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Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,193
4,399
136
lawl

I'd also like a unicorn while we're at it.
Being pessimistic and cynical is accepting the status quo. Being open to other views and ideas is the only way to bring changes. There is room for a deal if the leaders work to find it
 
Jul 9, 2009
10,532
1,893
136
1. The cops are often too late and useless. True for Columbine in 99, true last week.


2. Because making the root cause of all shootings solely access to guns isn't going to solve the problem, and isn't going to get the 2A crowd on board with reforms.

On MSNBC and CNN it's wall to wall gun ban discussions, and on Fox it's mental health and... crazy stuff. Each side completely dismisses the view point of the other.

In reality, the problem is much more difficult than either imagines, but neither side is really moving out of their old familiar talking points, which hasn't solved the problem in 23 years.
Except the police in Columbine did engage early and fired on the perps, they just broke off when the shooters got into the school and waited for SWAT/back up/etc. Sheriff Stone was very successful in the cover-up of what really happened there. Frankly i thought police had learned the lessons of Columbine until Uvalde.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,067
3,790
136
1. The teacher is actually there and being forced into action. Some would want something better than a thrown chair or book to protect themselves with.

2. Realistically tho, I don't think many people will want this responsibility. Can't imagine the legal and insurance hell if Ms Crabapple accidently shot Timmy when trying to the defend class.

3. Given that it's probably never going to be as thing, and will be a locally decided matter anyway, what's the harm in using it as a bargaining chip to get other concessions from Republicans?

4. There have certainly been instances where armed citizens have stopped shooters.

One horror is school shootings, but church shootings have also been a motif.

In one Texas church, volunteers created an armed security force, and a shooter was killed within seconds (not minutes to hrs when you call the police.)

Video captured the whole scene and it's as scary as hell. Lots of lives saved by quick action. 6 seconds before the shooter is dead and can't kill anyone else. I'd directly link a YT if I could find one that doesn't edit the video.

https://nypost.com/2019/12/30/texas-man-jack-wilson-identified-as-hero-who-shot-gunman-inside-church/
You could have just saved yourself time and said no.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
54,488
7,090
126
Being pessimistic and cynical is accepting the status quo. Being open to other views and ideas is the only way to bring changes. There is room for a deal if the leaders work to find it
Sure, there's room for a deal, if you can find people in the GOP willing to vote for anything that might have the ever-so-slightest faint fucking whiff of cooperating with the enemy Democrats. Dunno if you've noticed but they've not got the best track record.

Edit: I believe nothing will change and we'll just have more fucking dead children. I mean, we've only had literal decades to do anything meaningful about the problem.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,193
4,399
136
Sure, there's room for a deal, if you can find people in the GOP willing to vote for anything that might have the ever-so-slightest faint fucking whiff of cooperating with the enemy Democrats. Dunno if you've noticed but they've not got the best track record.

Edit: I believe nothing will change and we'll just have more fucking dead children. I mean, we've only had literal decades to do anything meaningful about the problem.
I'm hoping for optimism because the alternative is too awful.

A deal is possible tho I believe if we can get past the name calling and absolutism. Gun owners don't want these shootings either, but won't give up rights for self defense unless they think the trade off will be effective and worth it.

Not all gun owners and NRA members are lunatic Q nuts, insurrectionists, Trumpers, and far right Republicans. Moderates and liberals are also gun owners.

I think you can get enough gun owners to agree to raising the age limit for powerful semi-automatic rifles to 21 (just like we have for pistols already) but it will take a lot of carrots because there is so little trust in both directions.

Kids are not emotionally mature enough for beer and cigs, many will agree for ARs as well.

You would need some sort of carve out for hunting rifles or you will face high opposition. Say bolt actions with a hunting license.

Then Ds have to give up something to Rs?
Can they agree to mental health resources and armed teachers, the thing Rs propose?

What's it worth to them? At least call the bluff.

Many of these shootings are really violent revenge homicides before suicide, so we should do more to stop violence before it starts, not just slightly nerf the weapons.

Leave the red flag laws a local matter, a national program will be a nonstarter.

Maybe add funding for gun safety and training classes? Many gun owners pay lots of money for training, subsidies for this would be well met and help prevent accidents.

Also, serious resources into investigating gun traffickers and straw purchases. Many weapons used in crimes (50%?) are illegally obtained.

Maybe even tax breaks for gun safes to help prevent stolen weapons and accidents.
 
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soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
16,980
4,753
136
The GOP will talk but do nothing, Mitch has already said as much. The gun culture is the GOP, take them away and the GOP would not exist.
 
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Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
10,735
3,859
136
I'm hoping for optimism because the alternative is too awful.
Obviously it’s not an awful alternative for conservatives. Seems they really like the mass executions of children, given all their response to this continual slaughter are “thoughts and prayers.”

One has to ask at this point exactly who these so-called “thoughts and prayers” are directed toward. Almost seems like the shooter(s) is/are the focus of their thoughts. Certainly aren’t focused on a bunch of kids in public schools.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
54,488
7,090
126
Not all gun owners and NRA members are lunatic Q nuts, insurrectionists, Trumpers, and far right Republicans. Moderates and liberals are also gun owners.
I know this. They don't have the ear of anyone in the GOP.
 

Homerboy

Lifer
Mar 1, 2000
30,371
4,344
126
Can you imagine if the person with the AR15 didn't have easy access to it?

We wouldn't even be hearing about this story and people would have gone on with their business with no incident.

But nope, a good guy with a gun is a better solution in many people's eyes.
The start to fixing this problem is really as simple as this.

I don't get why AR15s and similar are legal... period. At the VERY least this specific model/design of weapon should require more stringent background checks, yearly licensing, or insurance or something. It's already in place for fully automatic weapons, so why can't we draw another line in the sand?

People are just fucking disgusting.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
30,729
18,296
136
I'm hoping for optimism because the alternative is too awful.


[ok]
I think you can get enough gun owners to agree to raising the age limit for powerful semi-automatic rifles to 21 (just like we have for pistols already) but it will take a lot of carrots because there is so little trust in both directions.

[ok]
You would need some sort of carve out for hunting rifles or you will face high opposition. Say bolt actions with a hunting license.

[Mental health resources to include a psych exam before obtaining a license. You need to separate the mentally incapable from guns] [Armed teachers - insurance companies have already indicated those costs will be prohibitive but if districts way to pay it that's on them]. Only optional for teachers and they must have same training as SWAT]
Can they agree to mental health resources and armed teachers, the thing Rs propose?

What's it worth to them? At least call the bluff.

[No Why not separate the mentally ill from their guns? Just call it the Florida/Ric Scott Red Flag Law and use theirs. Trust argument goes away]
Leave the red flag laws a local matter, a national program will be a nonstarter.

[Only if yearly proficiency testing is required]
Maybe add funding for gun safety and training classes? Many gun owners pay lots of money for training, subsidies for this would be well met and help prevent accidents.

[yes Most of the guns confiscated in Chicago are from out of state]
Also, serious resources into investigating gun traffickers and straw purchases. Many weapons used in crimes (50%?) are illegally obtained.

[no]
Maybe even tax breaks for gun safes to help prevent stolen weapons and accidents.
See above
 
Jul 9, 2009
10,532
1,893
136
Sure, there's room for a deal, if you can find people in the GOP willing to vote for anything that might have the ever-so-slightest faint fucking whiff of cooperating with the enemy Democrats. Dunno if you've noticed but they've not got the best track record.

Edit: I believe nothing will change and we'll just have more fucking dead children. I mean, we've only had literal decades to do anything meaningful about the problem.
Yep, a million dead children a year due to abortions. Lots and lots and lots of dead children. Thank God the USSC has finally done something.
 
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Homerboy

Lifer
Mar 1, 2000
30,371
4,344
126
Yep, a million dead children a year due to abortions. Lots and lots and lots of dead children. Thank God the USSC has finally done something.
clump of cells/fetus, but that's where our two sides differ strongly and will never see eye-to-eye on.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
15,596
10,413
146
So some quick questions for the arm the teachers crowd:
  • What type of gun do they get? Hand gun vs AR seems problematic
  • What type of rounds is the teacher armed with? Armor piercing is good for body armor but a missed shot will penetrate walls putting other students at risk
  • Are the teachers trained in how to fire the weapon or do we just provide them and say good luck?
  • Who determines the rules of engagement for the teachers?
  • How are the weapons secured in the classroom? Lockbox? Required to worn at all time by the teacher?
  • How do you train the teacher to simultaneously view the students as students, as potential victims, and potential lethal threats?
  • How much tax payer money will go for these mitigations so gun owners can continue to enjoy owing arms? Or do we require the cost of the ammo, weapons, and training to come out of the teacher pockets?
I think a lot of you have this narrative in your head of the hero teacher (yourself?) grabbing a handgun from the desk and hitting the armed and armored school shooter center of mass and then a head shot on the first two tries.
 

FlawleZ

Member
Oct 13, 2016
88
97
91
The start to fixing this problem is really as simple as this.

I don't get why AR15s and similar are legal... period. At the VERY least this specific model/design of weapon should require more stringent background checks, yearly licensing, or insurance or something. It's already in place for fully automatic weapons, so why can't we draw another line in the sand?

People are just fucking disgusting.
The problem is if you're going to propose legislation against specific firearms, you must be specific and technical. In your opinion, which of the two attached firearms should be included and why?
gun-1103.jpg7-g22ab83c2ab.jpg
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
15,596
10,413
146
Yep, a million dead children a year due to abortions. Lots and lots and lots of dead children. Thank God the USSC has finally done something.
clump of cells/fetus, but that's where our two sides differ strongly and will never see eye-to-eye on.
As I’ve pointed out over and over just following their logic parents trying to conceive have aborted billions of “children” naturally without a single pro-lifer giving a single shit about it.
 

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