The BS is your saying that dead Arabs is a NeoCon's wet dream. Pure BS on your part. It was also inflammatory, unnecessary and could also be called a flat out lie. Take your pick. But hey, do your best to stir up anti-American hatred by the Arabs. They won?t do anything about it, except fly a plane or two or three into buildings. Is that really what you want?
The BS is your saying that dead Arabs is a NeoCon's wet dream. Pure BS on your part. It was also inflammatory, unnecessary and could also be called a flat out lie. Take your pick. But hey, do your best to stir up anti-American hatred by the Arabs. They won?t do anything about it, except fly a plane or two or three into buildings. Is that really what you want?
When you are ready to have a mature discussion without getting emotional, then we can discuss this issue. This issue has to be discussed in a heartless, rational way, because the hot-headed namecalling way has not and will not work.
At some point it's no longer about accomplishment, it's about an eye for an eye, you killed one of ours we kill one of yours, and someone has to step back so the two parties are physically separate. The Palestinians don't have anywhere left to step back, the Israelis do.
There are 3 solutions to this conflict: Israel and Palestine separate, Israelis massacre Palestinians, or Palestinians massacre Israelis.
If you think Palestinians will live peacefully under Israeli occupation, you are deluding yourself. And Israel will never integrate Palestinians into its state because it will no longer be a Jewish state. So the only road to peace that doesn't involve a massacre is through separation. So what's the hold up? Unless you are a Palestinian who hopes to massacre Israelis, or an Israeli who hopes to massacre the Palestinians, it seems to me that Israel should abandon its settlements and physically, militarily,and politically separate from the west bank and gaza.
Yeah, then how do you explain people like Ann Coulter saying: "we should go to their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity?" Anyway, that was not even my point. I'm talking about the outcomes of the issues you put forward, you still can't respond to that can you. Here let me remind you what you said:
So long as abbas and/or arafat refuse to reign in the terrorists and disarm them, then israel has no choice but to continue to build the fence. If abbas is afraid to stop terrorists from coming to israel and blowing themselves up, all in the vain hope of averting a palestinian civil war, then the fence should be built to stop the terrorists. Fencing off Gaza worked perfectly. Now it's the West Bank's time. Hell, if the terrorists continue to call the shots in the Palestinian circle, then I see no problem with either annexing the whole damn territory or giving it back to Jordan and Egypt so they can do israel's dirty work.
And here is what I said would happen:
I can see why you like that. In scenario one, the Pals try to reign in terrorists by force, start a civil war and basically destroy themselves. In the second scenario, the onus of security shifts from Israel to Jordon or Egypt. If one of them does not go out of its way to protect Israel, Israel can launch a "defensive" attack and use its overwhelming military superiority to destroy either country.
Quit stalling on the NeoCon comment and stick to the issues. I'm sorry I insinuated you would wake up with wet pants.
Hell Israel already occupies the Golan heights for "defensive purposes", do you think they would hesitate to re-occupy the Sinai for the same reasons if the responsibility for Israeli security was shifted to the Egyptions and they "didn't perform"? I think not.
And as for your accusations of me doing my "best to stir up anti-American hatred by the Arabs" you need to seriously get a clue. Arab hatred for the US is the fault of NeoCons like you and your ilk who blindly support Israel, as well as brutal dictators in Egypt and SA et al, who make their daily life a misery. Hailing John Ashcroft as a hero doesn't help either. Now you'll respond with a standard "it's not that, they just hate the way we live and democracy" or some BS. Save it, I'm sick of it.
So Israel should reward the terrorists, and provide them with the staging areas for the next round.
Islamic Jihad, Hamas et all will not stop untill the last Jew is dead.
It's that simple.
The occupation is illegal. You're not rewarding terrorists, you're complying with international law, something Israel is above thanks to the US.
Who cares what Jihad wants? Unless you have a peaceful solution that does not involve physical separation between Israel and Palestine, I don't see how it's relevant whether it rewards terrorists or not. It's still the right thing to do.
Palestinians aren't going to get into Israel unless Israel lets them. So I don't see how it matters what Jihad and Hamas want. Israel ending the occupation will end the despair and anger that is filling the ranks of these organizations.
It's amazing how close minded people like etech and Dari are, spitting the same worthless crap in any kind of P/I discussion (or US/Iraq for that matter, hell, US vs. anyone). How can you expect anyone to take what you say seriously when you're so bias and can't look at the bigger picture?
Oi.. Where's amused when you need him.
Oi.. Where's amused when you need him.
tell me, how is the occupation illegal when israel was attacked and fought back? How is it illegal when she got tired of being attacked and decided to hold the land until a viable and trustworthy neighbor took over? Is it illegal because she was the aggressor? Is it illegal because some arcane law says so?
The occupation itself is not illegal under International Law. It is the establishment of settlements in the occupied territory that is illegal. So the Geneva conventions are an arcane law now?
you may be right, but you should remind everyone else here of that. The occupation is not illegal. Hell, it's an occupation, not annexation. Hopefully, once the Palestinians have settled their leadership issues, they can form a trustworthy and viable state for israel to deal with. Until then, the settlements will be a reminder of what happens when they (the arabs) don't have their priorities straight.
You didn't answer the question? Do you consider the Geneva conventions as an arcane law??
The settlements could also be considered a good example of what happens when they (Israelis) don't have thier priorities straight. BTW Annexation by action but not in word is equally illegal. The Geneva convention strictly prohibits moving in your own population or displacing the native population...and the military neccesity exception does not fly in this case.
yes, most of the geneva convention is unsuitable for problems the new world faces. THere should be another conference to update and amend some of the laws so that it can mirror the current challenges that modern security appartuses face. An example would be the stateless and protean terror organizations that we are currently dealing with.
of course not. But, you have to admit it, the israelis took advantage of the arabs' stupidity. Look at what constant wars has brought Palestinians? The Egyptians and Jordanians brought this on them (the Palestinians) and now they have to pay in blood and land. It'll be hard, but israel has to eventually give up that land. However, to do that, the arabs have become more civilized and deal with problems via diplomatic channels and not suicide bombers or fruitless invasions.
they have legal entitlement to the land and 3-4 million people. That is a good place to start. But first, they must have a solid and trustworthy leadership that can speak for all Palestinians.
they did, all the arab countries offered Israel a peace proposal before the current plan that Israel would withdraw to pre 67 borders in return for full recocnision of all states of Israels existance and diplomatic relations, this was turned down.
also today, Abbas offered a never ending siecefire which was turned down
Exactly what laws are you basing that on. Please be specific and provide a link so I can understand what you are basing that opinion on.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
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kinda funny how israel is held up to such lofty standards by some, that keep their mouths shut about the rest of the foul countries surrounding it. its the jews... its always the jews
women aren't even allowed to drive in saudi arabia for f*cks sake. oh the international outrage is deafening... oh wait.. it isn't
all of europe and the world should put their money where their mouths are and stop buying oil and selling techology/equipment nuclear reactors to these countries. oh wait, thats never going to happen don't forget france was the one who had billions of dollars of transactions with saddam damn nuclear proliferators.
women aren't even allowed to drive in saudi arabia for f*cks sake. oh the international outrage is deafening... oh wait.. it isn't
all of europe and the world should put their money where their mouths are and stop buying oil and selling techology/equipment nuclear reactors to these countries. oh wait, thats never going to happen
don't forget france was the one who had billions of dollars of transactions with saddam damn nuclear proliferators.You are missing one important detail. USA is openly supporting Israel conceptually and financially. When you take that under consideration there is no wonder why a lot of people, especially Americans who are opposed to racial laws in Israel, are upset about it. No one hides the fact that many of the Arab countries, that you are referring to, are governed by fallacious individuals who establish unjust laws. But a lot of media, as well as US administration, openly lie about Israel's democratic shortcomings.
That is a silly argument we constantly keep hearing from the war supporters. Using your ideology (remember your ideology not mine), let me ask you which is better? Starting a war for profit or keeping peace for profit?
The Fourth Geneva Convention on Rules of War, that bans the resettlement by an occupying power of its own civilians on territory under its military control.
all those proposals were bullsh!t and pure lip service. Until the arabs are serious about peace with israel, they shouldn't talk BS.
As for Abbas, he has very little power to make such a promise. in fact, it was the imprisoned barghouti who made the current ceasefire viable.
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